Input on Pirelli Scorpion Zero?
01-09-2014, 01:33 PM
#51
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Here are basic concepts pertaining to tires. There are no perfect circles. The wheel and tire have high and low points (called run out) and heavy and light spots. Tires can have red and yellow dots to identify where the high or low or heavy and light spots exist on the tire. The goal is to match the red spot to the valve to limit run out. A road force machine is used to identify these points and limit them if a tech can't do it themselves. Usually 1/4 turns of the tire on the wheel will limit the run out and hence the amount of weight needed to balance the tire. An out of balance tire presents vibration immediately so the customer would know if their brand new car with brand new Pirelli's were out of round.
I'm done with this childish garbage dude.
I'm done with this childish garbage dude.
01-09-2014, 01:36 PM
#52
Where is it you're having problems with all the Pirellis your're running on the track or driving around town?
I don't race cars. I don't go to tracks I'm not sure where you got the idea I did. I was only speaking about passenger car tires until you derailed to the track. but I pointed out that Pirelli is a respected track tire. Hankooks are made in Korea FYI.
I don't race cars. I don't go to tracks I'm not sure where you got the idea I did. I was only speaking about passenger car tires until you derailed to the track. but I pointed out that Pirelli is a respected track tire. Hankooks are made in Korea FYI.
the pirelli truck tires are out of round. not enough to cause initial problems, but enough to cause problems as they wear out.
on the other hand the pirelli high-perf tires are not preferred on the track where traction and car control are paid attention to.
what is left? pirelly for golf carts? i dont care.
01-09-2014, 01:52 PM
#53
Here are basic concepts pertaining to tires. There are no perfect circles. The wheel and tire have high and low points (called run out) and heavy and light spots. Tires can have red and yellow dots to identify where the high or low or heavy and light spots exist on the tire. The goal is to match the red spot to the valve to limit run out. A road force machine is used to identify these points and limit them if a tech can't do it themselves. Usually 1/4 turns of the tire on the wheel will limit the run out and hence the amount of weight needed to balance the tire. An out of balance tire presents vibration immediately so the customer would know if their brand new car with brand new Pirelli's were out of round.
I'm done with this childish garbage dude.
I'm done with this childish garbage dude.
you on the other hand are prolly pirelli heavy in your inventory or for some reason you want to defend them. i dont care. but you are one biased tire store owner. i am not surprised here one bit.
now, with this out of the way- please explain what do you do when the out of round spot (red dot) cannot be compensated by the dimple on the rim. (btw, mercedes stock rims are almost dimple free- one of the best in the industry so your out of round tire has nothing to be compensated against). you can balance this scenario out so the customer will not complain initially, but as the tire wears the highpoint will wear faster resulting in vibrations and noise down the road ..
Last edited by alx; 01-09-2014 at 01:55 PM.
01-09-2014, 02:10 PM
#54
Out Of Control!!
Maybe I'm wrong, but the run-out on a tire should not be an issue (with properly made tires).
The marking have to do with the weight and balance.
The marking have to do with the weight and balance.
01-09-2014, 02:16 PM
#55
yellow dot is heaviest spot on tire
red dot is more complicated, but think of it as the point that experiences the highest centrifugal force when the tire is turning. that is close but different than the highest spot on the tire. ideally you want to place that spot in the dimple of the rim- if it has one. if it doesnt (like most unmolested mb rims) than you are sort of fuked in the long run as it will wear out and become noisy. scorpions are known for ugly red dots... when they have them. often they dont bother putting them at all... just a yellow dot is present
01-09-2014, 04:23 PM
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
So - while it seems like there are a few people looking at this thread with good tire knowledge - can I ask my original question a different way.
The OEM M+S Contis are very bad in the snow on braking (particularly) and turning. I was hoping that the Pirelli Scorpian Zero M+S may perform better in snow.
Do you know if the compound of the Pirelli would not get as hard under colder weather than the Conti?
I know a dedicated snow tire would solve this - but that wouldn't work for me where I live. I also don't get monsoon like rain so hydroplaning hasn't been an issue.
The Contis seem to turn to rocks in the cold. I know it could also be the tread pattern (those Michelin LTXs I used to have seem more aggressive on the edges to bite) and that's why I asked my original practical experience question.
I'm considering ditching some tires here with very little current tread wear - to move into these Pirellis. So important decision for me.
My experience with Pirellis is very limited (and part of why I reached out on this thread). The P-zeros I have on my 911 really suffer in the cold weather below 50oF and harden up a lot (as you would expect from a summer tire) - but the general consensus is to ditch them in favor of the Michelin Pilot Supersports - for DD use and tracking in a P-car. I had SuperSports on a BMW 550 and they were awesome.
So - really looking to ensure a switch to this type of Pirelli is a smart move - will definitely get them RoadForce balanced.
The OEM M+S Contis are very bad in the snow on braking (particularly) and turning. I was hoping that the Pirelli Scorpian Zero M+S may perform better in snow.
Do you know if the compound of the Pirelli would not get as hard under colder weather than the Conti?
I know a dedicated snow tire would solve this - but that wouldn't work for me where I live. I also don't get monsoon like rain so hydroplaning hasn't been an issue.
The Contis seem to turn to rocks in the cold. I know it could also be the tread pattern (those Michelin LTXs I used to have seem more aggressive on the edges to bite) and that's why I asked my original practical experience question.
I'm considering ditching some tires here with very little current tread wear - to move into these Pirellis. So important decision for me.
My experience with Pirellis is very limited (and part of why I reached out on this thread). The P-zeros I have on my 911 really suffer in the cold weather below 50oF and harden up a lot (as you would expect from a summer tire) - but the general consensus is to ditch them in favor of the Michelin Pilot Supersports - for DD use and tracking in a P-car. I had SuperSports on a BMW 550 and they were awesome.
So - really looking to ensure a switch to this type of Pirelli is a smart move - will definitely get them RoadForce balanced.
01-09-2014, 04:42 PM
#57
Out Of Control!!
I just put a set of Nitto Motivo on my E, and so far I am loving how it handles the snow and cold.
If they hold up well, the GL will probably get a set.
If they hold up well, the GL will probably get a set.
01-10-2014, 08:43 AM
#58
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GL 450
So - while it seems like there are a few people looking at this thread with good tire knowledge - can I ask my original question a different way.
The OEM M+S Contis are very bad in the snow on braking (particularly) and turning. I was hoping that the Pirelli Scorpian Zero M+S may perform better in snow.
Do you know if the compound of the Pirelli would not get as hard under colder weather than the Conti?
I know a dedicated snow tire would solve this - but that wouldn't work for me where I live. I also don't get monsoon like rain so hydroplaning hasn't been an issue.
The Contis seem to turn to rocks in the cold. I know it could also be the tread pattern (those Michelin LTXs I used to have seem more aggressive on the edges to bite) and that's why I asked my original practical experience question.
I'm considering ditching some tires here with very little current tread wear - to move into these Pirellis. So important decision for me.
My experience with Pirellis is very limited (and part of why I reached out on this thread). The P-zeros I have on my 911 really suffer in the cold weather below 50oF and harden up a lot (as you would expect from a summer tire) - but the general consensus is to ditch them in favor of the Michelin Pilot Supersports - for DD use and tracking in a P-car. I had SuperSports on a BMW 550 and they were awesome.
So - really looking to ensure a switch to this type of Pirelli is a smart move - will definitely get them RoadForce balanced.
The OEM M+S Contis are very bad in the snow on braking (particularly) and turning. I was hoping that the Pirelli Scorpian Zero M+S may perform better in snow.
Do you know if the compound of the Pirelli would not get as hard under colder weather than the Conti?
I know a dedicated snow tire would solve this - but that wouldn't work for me where I live. I also don't get monsoon like rain so hydroplaning hasn't been an issue.
The Contis seem to turn to rocks in the cold. I know it could also be the tread pattern (those Michelin LTXs I used to have seem more aggressive on the edges to bite) and that's why I asked my original practical experience question.
I'm considering ditching some tires here with very little current tread wear - to move into these Pirellis. So important decision for me.
My experience with Pirellis is very limited (and part of why I reached out on this thread). The P-zeros I have on my 911 really suffer in the cold weather below 50oF and harden up a lot (as you would expect from a summer tire) - but the general consensus is to ditch them in favor of the Michelin Pilot Supersports - for DD use and tracking in a P-car. I had SuperSports on a BMW 550 and they were awesome.
So - really looking to ensure a switch to this type of Pirelli is a smart move - will definitely get them RoadForce balanced.
01-10-2014, 10:38 AM
#59
Out Of Control!!
runout causes shimmy (left/right) in the steering that might or might not be masked by the suspension.
yellow dot is heaviest spot on tire
red dot is more complicated, but think of it as the point that experiences the highest centrifugal force when the tire is turning. that is close but different than the highest spot on the tire. ideally you want to place that spot in the dimple of the rim- if it has one. if it doesnt (like most unmolested mb rims) than you are sort of fuked in the long run as it will wear out and become noisy. scorpions are known for ugly red dots... when they have them. often they dont bother putting them at all... just a yellow dot is present
yellow dot is heaviest spot on tire
red dot is more complicated, but think of it as the point that experiences the highest centrifugal force when the tire is turning. that is close but different than the highest spot on the tire. ideally you want to place that spot in the dimple of the rim- if it has one. if it doesnt (like most unmolested mb rims) than you are sort of fuked in the long run as it will wear out and become noisy. scorpions are known for ugly red dots... when they have them. often they dont bother putting them at all... just a yellow dot is present
I should have been more clear, I was referring to radial runout not lateral runout.
01-10-2014, 10:43 AM
#60
Junior Member
Pls call tirerack or another online mail order tire center. Ask the professional salesperson what they suggest. Just my suggestion. I'm very happy with the Conti LX20 on my gl450, 255-60-19. I have a R500 (255-55-19) and ML500 (275-60-17) All are running the Conti LX20.
I have no connections to any tire dealers, I'm in real estate.
If you call tirerack, I use Luke, he is very familiar with the German vehicles.
Pirelli tires have no tread ware guarantee, the lx20 tires do! I will no longer purchase. Tire without the tread ware guarantee.
I have no connections to any tire dealers, I'm in real estate.
If you call tirerack, I use Luke, he is very familiar with the German vehicles.
Pirelli tires have no tread ware guarantee, the lx20 tires do! I will no longer purchase. Tire without the tread ware guarantee.
01-10-2014, 01:43 PM
#61
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Conti Comes with 70K mileage warranty and first 2/32 tread wear road hazard. The Conti LX20 is a great tire just not better or worse in snow than the Pirelli which was the original question. They're equal in that regard. There are only a handful of tires that come with a tread wear guarantee. I would hope tread life would be the last concern for anyone buying tires. Safety and ride comfort / performance should be tops on that list.
Tire Rack is a good source however a portion of their ownership is private equity and we should all try and buy local whenever possible for all products.
Tire Rack is a good source however a portion of their ownership is private equity and we should all try and buy local whenever possible for all products.
Last edited by asitreadalong; 01-10-2014 at 02:33 PM.
01-10-2014, 04:18 PM
#63
Out Of Control!!
I have to agree.
I have Conti 4x4 Contact on mine, and am quite disappointed with the snow performance.
I am starting to shop for my next tire now, so I can be ready to buy when I need them.
The LX20 look great, but I am not sure I want to give up 200LB of load capacity since I tow. (Wish they had the LX in the factory size. (Or a higher load rating)
03-17-2014, 08:02 AM
#64
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'99 CLK430 '02 SL600 Silver Arrow '14 GL350 Bluetec '80 Rolls-Royce Corniche Coupe
Good alternative to Goodyear LS-2 Runflats
Have been running some 275/50-20 Pirelli Scorpions on my '09 GL320 as a alternative to the very expensive and very hard riding Goodyear LS-2's. Ride is much better, no difference in noise, good winter performance, and they seem to be wearing fine after the first 18K miles.
Of course, they are not run-flats, so I have a spare rim with one of the old LS-2's in the garage, and keep my AAA membership paid up! (The GL320 doesn't have a spare, nor a place to carry one.)
Of course, they are not run-flats, so I have a spare rim with one of the old LS-2's in the garage, and keep my AAA membership paid up! (The GL320 doesn't have a spare, nor a place to carry one.)
10-22-2014, 10:22 AM
#65
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I am either going to get the Nitto Motivo in 275/55R19 or change width to the 255/60R19 Michelin Lattitude.
If that change is only a 0.4% change in diameter - I'm thinking it shouldn't have any substantial effects (?).
I wanted to get the Nokian WRG3 but the 255/55 was too big a change.
10-22-2014, 10:29 AM
#66
Senior Member
Thread Starter
As some others on here have done, I went with 255/60-19's. The rolling diameter is virtually identical (something like .002% different so within the wear range of the tread itself). This opened up a lot of options.
I went with the Michelin Latitude in that size. Wet traction is fantastic and it's eliminated any hydroplaning I was experiencing on the Conti's. We did one trip up into the mountains with snow and they performed as well as my last Jeep GC did wearing Goodyear Fortera's. Recent brief snow here in Seattle they performed as well as anything else I've driven on and again a huge improvement over the Conti's.
Best part was a set of 4 in that size range, installed and out the door under $850 and a 65,000 mile warranty.
I went with the Michelin Latitude in that size. Wet traction is fantastic and it's eliminated any hydroplaning I was experiencing on the Conti's. We did one trip up into the mountains with snow and they performed as well as my last Jeep GC did wearing Goodyear Fortera's. Recent brief snow here in Seattle they performed as well as anything else I've driven on and again a huge improvement over the Conti's.
Best part was a set of 4 in that size range, installed and out the door under $850 and a 65,000 mile warranty.
10-22-2014, 07:33 PM
#67
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2010 GL450, 2013 E350
On Contis
I'm quite interested in your experience with Contis. Personally, I've run ContiContact Max Performarmance tires on my Audis for years and they're among the best all-season tires I've had, particularly in rain -- no hydroplaning ever, even during heavy rain/water cumulation on road, and extremely long lasting (quiet ride, comfort, etc). Contis also tend to rate high/highest in wet conditions generally. Granted, I've never tried them on a vehicle like the GL, but your experience intrigues me. Thanks for sharing.
Dimitris
Dimitris
You are right, it is a great riding vehicle and the ride is one of the qualities that keeps me putting up with some of its quirks.
If you go back and actually read what I said, I never said Hankooks were better than Pirelli's or Conti's. What I said was they make a tire that works very well and is very popular on the SLK's and I agree with the common sentiment on that, they have done very well on mine. I did not like their tires on my previous SUV.
The 320's have narrower tires and are generally more popular here in the NW because of the diesel engine. But those with 450's and especially the 550's have horrible hydroplaning issues. A buddy of mine with a 550 finally changed tires out of desperation as his wife wanted to trade it in for another vehicle.
Here is another thread that discusses it as well, another GL owner here in the NW. http://www.benzworld.org/forums/x-16...size-your.html
If you live somewhere with minimal rain, great. But here the roads are wet 10 months out of the year. 50% of the time there is significant standing water. All else being equal larger tire footprint will reduce the speed at which hydroplaning occurs. In other parts of the country people tend to slow down when it rains. If we did that here we'd never get where we were going.
The Conti's aren't terrible new, and they are fine dry. But put 8K to 12K miles on them and then drive through a normal Seattle November rain storm. They don't work. If that means replacing them every 6 to 8K miles to keep wet performance adequate, I'm going to find an alternative if possible. After discussing it with the service manager of the Indy shop I take both my MB's to, and with their recommended tire store both suggested the narrower Michelin's and I've been nothing but happy.
Sure you can get to extremes and mess things up, but it's a relatively subtle change that works well. Don't be afraid to think outside the box.
If you go back and actually read what I said, I never said Hankooks were better than Pirelli's or Conti's. What I said was they make a tire that works very well and is very popular on the SLK's and I agree with the common sentiment on that, they have done very well on mine. I did not like their tires on my previous SUV.
The 320's have narrower tires and are generally more popular here in the NW because of the diesel engine. But those with 450's and especially the 550's have horrible hydroplaning issues. A buddy of mine with a 550 finally changed tires out of desperation as his wife wanted to trade it in for another vehicle.
Here is another thread that discusses it as well, another GL owner here in the NW. http://www.benzworld.org/forums/x-16...size-your.html
If you live somewhere with minimal rain, great. But here the roads are wet 10 months out of the year. 50% of the time there is significant standing water. All else being equal larger tire footprint will reduce the speed at which hydroplaning occurs. In other parts of the country people tend to slow down when it rains. If we did that here we'd never get where we were going.
The Conti's aren't terrible new, and they are fine dry. But put 8K to 12K miles on them and then drive through a normal Seattle November rain storm. They don't work. If that means replacing them every 6 to 8K miles to keep wet performance adequate, I'm going to find an alternative if possible. After discussing it with the service manager of the Indy shop I take both my MB's to, and with their recommended tire store both suggested the narrower Michelin's and I've been nothing but happy.
Sure you can get to extremes and mess things up, but it's a relatively subtle change that works well. Don't be afraid to think outside the box.
10-22-2014, 07:38 PM
#68
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2010 GL450, 2013 E350
Agree on Michelins
They're the Marriott of the tires -- consistent quality regardless of the tire & diameter ;-) I've run Michelins in cold, wet and challenging climates, and they're always a very competent, quality product (even if they're not the cheapest or longest-lasting).
F1 tires are definitely so different from consumer production tires, making one well, does not relate much to the other.
My experience with Pirellis has been mixed. It seems they come out with a good series, then build a bunch of similar named tires that at best are mediocre.
The only company that seems consistently good across the brand is Michelin.
I am not saying their tires are the "best".
I am just saying that without comparative experience with a multiple types and sizes on a particular vehicle, (which few of us have) I have always had good results.
My experience with Pirellis has been mixed. It seems they come out with a good series, then build a bunch of similar named tires that at best are mediocre.
The only company that seems consistently good across the brand is Michelin.
I am not saying their tires are the "best".
I am just saying that without comparative experience with a multiple types and sizes on a particular vehicle, (which few of us have) I have always had good results.
10-26-2014, 04:21 PM
#70
I got rid of mine as soon as I bought the car. They sounded like off road tires or like I had all four bearings bad. Put new contis and car is smooth as ice. I would very much discourage everyone to stay away from the scorpion zeros....
10-26-2014, 04:30 PM
#71
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2010 GL450, 2013 E350
vibration between 65-75mph
It's not alignment - no indication when I brake (or car "pulling to one side"), so this leaves the Scorpions. Tires are pretty new, so if the dealer can't fix by rebalancing / rotating, I might dump them altogether and look for another brand.
10-28-2014, 08:54 AM
#72
Tried the Pirelli Scorpions once on my ML. They were down to the wear bars in only 8K miles. ML would pull left or right all over the place depending on the seams in the road surface. Got down right dangerous. Pirelli was nice enough refund a lot of my money but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I have avoided them since. They must have known they had a bad batch since they came up off the refund very easily.
11-03-2014, 08:46 PM
#73
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97 S600 coupe/gf 16 C300 Lux. Former: 08 GL450, 83 300D, 97 C230, 08 c300 luxury, 92 500SL, 93 400E
Final answer if you have anything other than 18s - Toyo Versado CUV
1) GLs are extremely hard on tires due to being a 5500lb vehicle with an "active" suspension pushing its passenger car tires every which way on uneven roads, with heft and load
2) With leaky suspension and "phantom" potential alignment issues, your new tires of any size and brand can be toast on this chassis in less than 10k.
3) Pirellis are total gargabe on this chassis (had them for 22k of suffering)
4) I love Michelins, but not for this chassis (10k life?)
5) The Contis are expensive as hell and get mixed results (possibly because some applications have suspension or alignment issues, and others dont)
6) I will never put NittoKuhmo crap on a Mercedes
7) After many months of research, I purchased special-order Toyo Versado CUVs because of multiple positive reviews on THIS CHASSIS.
8) Prior to installing, CPO replaced 2 air bladders in back and 2 strut up front, and an alignment was done.
So far so excellent, in 3k of driving.
Discount Tire matched the price on Tread Depot site, less than $900 installed, out the door. Yes, less than $900, and you can find multiple reviews of people getting 30, 40k out of these with relative quiet and performance. For the price of a Kuhmo and the reviews of a typical Michelin, I have my fingers crossed
2) With leaky suspension and "phantom" potential alignment issues, your new tires of any size and brand can be toast on this chassis in less than 10k.
3) Pirellis are total gargabe on this chassis (had them for 22k of suffering)
4) I love Michelins, but not for this chassis (10k life?)
5) The Contis are expensive as hell and get mixed results (possibly because some applications have suspension or alignment issues, and others dont)
6) I will never put NittoKuhmo crap on a Mercedes
7) After many months of research, I purchased special-order Toyo Versado CUVs because of multiple positive reviews on THIS CHASSIS.
8) Prior to installing, CPO replaced 2 air bladders in back and 2 strut up front, and an alignment was done.
So far so excellent, in 3k of driving.
Discount Tire matched the price on Tread Depot site, less than $900 installed, out the door. Yes, less than $900, and you can find multiple reviews of people getting 30, 40k out of these with relative quiet and performance. For the price of a Kuhmo and the reviews of a typical Michelin, I have my fingers crossed
Last edited by will_w204; 11-03-2014 at 08:49 PM.
11-05-2014, 11:56 PM
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
So - after the Nittos appeared to be out of stock I continued my search.
I have now bit the bullet on a set of Toyo Versado CUV in the 275/55R19. I found a few positive reviews on them (including on here - thanks!) and they seem to have reported decent snow performance for an all season. They are also reported to be fairly quiet. We will see how they go!
If I had been in the market for dedicated snow tires - I definitely would have gone with the Nokian Hakka R2s.
If the size match was a little bit better (and load rating) - I wish I could have gone with the Nokian WRG3 all seasons. They seem to be exactly what I was looking for but not quite the right size.
I have now bit the bullet on a set of Toyo Versado CUV in the 275/55R19. I found a few positive reviews on them (including on here - thanks!) and they seem to have reported decent snow performance for an all season. They are also reported to be fairly quiet. We will see how they go!
If I had been in the market for dedicated snow tires - I definitely would have gone with the Nokian Hakka R2s.
If the size match was a little bit better (and load rating) - I wish I could have gone with the Nokian WRG3 all seasons. They seem to be exactly what I was looking for but not quite the right size.
