2005 E55 Vs 2005 Cl65
04-15-2005, 10:06 AM
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2005 E55
2005 E55 Vs 2005 Cl65
Ok I was going to buy this CL65 from a friend. CL65 has 3300 miles silver /black. I drove a friend to pick up car in th OC area. I was driving the CL and my friend was in MY E55. We ran the cars 3 times and from 0-100 the E55 was quicker. After the first race my frined said that he would not let me buy the CL65. The E55 is the best MBZ for the money.
If anyone wants a CL65 $149,000 it is for sale. Had a stick of $189,000
If anyone wants a CL65 $149,000 it is for sale. Had a stick of $189,000
04-15-2005, 12:12 PM
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It is likely that the answer to your question, Medici, is that from 0-100 the E55 can win because the CL has no LSD and no tire width sufficient to handle this much horsepower. On the other hand, from a 30-100 roll-on, I believe the E55 would be decimated thoroughly, assuming that there are no fairly extensive power mods on the E.
04-15-2005, 12:39 PM
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2005 E55
CL65 has no traction
I hit it in first and traction control came on. Car shifted to 2nd and made some power. Then hit 3rd and started to lay it down.
Yes from 40-100 I think the CL65 would pull hard. But with all that power the car goes crazy if you floor it. First gear the tires spinn if floored at any speed any rpm. CL65 has 19" rim so no Drag Radials for it.
I am going to add the cooling kit from EVO and 50 shot of NOS to the E55 and be very happy with car.
Hilsman's 11.6's runs are great!!!!
Yes from 40-100 I think the CL65 would pull hard. But with all that power the car goes crazy if you floor it. First gear the tires spinn if floored at any speed any rpm. CL65 has 19" rim so no Drag Radials for it.
I am going to add the cooling kit from EVO and 50 shot of NOS to the E55 and be very happy with car.
Hilsman's 11.6's runs are great!!!!
04-15-2005, 12:46 PM
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'03 G500, '13 G63, '17 GLS63,
Originally Posted by rguy
It is likely that the answer to your question, Medici, is that from 0-100 the E55 can win because the CL has no LSD and no tire width sufficient to handle this much horsepower. On the other hand, from a 30-100 roll-on, I believe the E55 would be decimated thoroughly, assuming that there are no fairly extensive power mods on the E.
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04-15-2005, 01:08 PM
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'03 G500, '13 G63, '17 GLS63,
Originally Posted by cte430
SL 65 has the LSD
04-15-2005, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by draggingcents2
Ok I was going to buy this CL65 from a friend. CL65 has 3300 miles silver /black. I drove a friend to pick up car in th OC area. I was driving the CL and my friend was in MY E55. We ran the cars 3 times and from 0-100 the E55 was quicker. After the first race my frined said that he would not let me buy the CL65. The E55 is the best MBZ for the money.
How can that NOT put smile on any E55 owners face? :
04-15-2005, 01:44 PM
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04E55AMG, 05Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab, 02Montero Limited
Originally Posted by medici78
So the SL65 has LSD and CL65 doesn't?? That doesn't make sense. But then again a lot of things M-B does don't make sense. (i.e. HID's and NAV are an OPTION on E55)
Only car that comes to US from AMG with LSD stock is the SL65. All AMG's should have a LSD as standard equipment!
04-15-2005, 04:09 PM
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Don't you know? They come with an electronic LSD! Yeah, shout it from the mountain tops, who needs traction when you can have throttle cutoff? I like trying to send 100% of my torque to one out of four wheels. In fact, I don't know why they just don't call it rear right or left wheel drive. Hey begars can't be choosers I guess, but i would prefer the right rear wheel.
04-16-2005, 02:24 PM
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LSD is a hallucinogen, that can be easily concealed due to it's clear liquid nature. Some people paint it on their fingernails and lick them all day. Some people coat stickers or a piece of paper.......wait a minute, I think you were asking about a limited slip differential....my mistake!
An automotive LSD is a device that goes in your rear differential. The rear differential transmits power from the drive shaft to the two rear wheels on a rear wheel drive car. Normally, due to the construction of the rear differential, if one tire loses traction, the resistance changes greatly between the two tires, and by default the tire with the least traction (the path of least resistance so to speak) will get up to 100% of the torque while the other tire will get up to 0% of the torque. People who used to get stuck in mud would see this. One wheel would spin and spin, while the other just sat there useless.
In today's limited slip differentials, they (suprisingly, I know) limit the slip in the differential. To make a long story short, each LSD has a lock up ratio. This is either the maximum or minimum amount of torque that will be allowed to be transmitted to the wheel with the least traction. For example, a kleemann style lsd has what they call a 60% torque lock up ratio, which AMG would call a 40% torque lock up ratio, you can see that 60% and 40% add up to 100% thus solving the mystery for why two different names describe the same LSD. This means that either the right or the left depending on terrain conditions will get no more than 60% of the driveline torque split. The other wheel will get 40% torque split. By doing this, not only do you make sure you are going down the line straight, because of having power generated in rough balance on both sides of the car, but also you get more tire traction.
Let's say each tire has 100% traction. Let's also say that under ideal conditions the tires each see 50% of the torque, using 100% of the traction available to each tire for 200% traction total. Well let's also assume you all the sudden have ice under your left rear tire, now this tire will slip fully and the left rear tire will see 100% of the torque from the rear differential which has no traction. The right rear wheel will get 0% of the torque so it's available traction doesn't matter. This leaves you with 0% traction, no traction from the left rear because it has no friction with the road service to push the car forward, and no traction from the right rear because no torque from the engine is driving it. You essentially are 1 wheel drive with zero friction, which is why you go nowhere.
Now let's do this with the LSD on from Kleemann. Same situation except now when the left rear slips only 60% of the torque goes to that useless left rear tire, while 40% of the torque goes to the tire with traction. Hence you use 40%/50% or 80% of the traction available to this tire and can keep moving forward. You still have no friction with the road surface on the left rear tire, but you now have 40% torque to the right rear. Since 50% torque used 100% of the tires available traction due to friction with the road surface, 40% torque yields 80% traction. 80% is much better than 0% any day of the week.
On a mercedes, you have asr which is a traction control device. When one drive wheel is sensed to be slipping, it brakes that wheel, which cancels out some of the torque from the engine, and if that doesn't work, then it cuts the throttle of the engine to diminish the source of the torque, that is to say the engine. This robs time and power, but keeps you going straight. This has been dubbed an electronic LSD, but really is a bunch of BS designed to keep people happy.
Let's say a tire under hard acceleration loses traction at 80% of the torque going to that wheel, well with a 60% torque lock up ration on an LSD, you prevent 80% of the torque from going to that wheel, so it never loses grip. The eLSD, would just drop back the throttle until the tire stopped slipping, i.e. until it had stopped seeing 80% or more of the torque supply.
Lastly, you may wonder why not limit the torque to 50%, well in a straight line drag race this might be a good idea, or it might not be, for much more complex reasons than I am going to go into here, but the curves answer this question simply. When you turn with a 50% torque split only the steering wheel steers the car, but with a 60% torque split the outside wheel gets pushed the least so has the most tire traction with the ground. Because of this unequal torque split and more traction being available with the ground to the outside rear wheel, the torque can rotate the outside rear wheel faster than the inside. This increases turning, causing a pivot motion like in basketball. This allows you to turn better and use higher speeds through a curve.
I hope this is clear, but it is probably as clear as mud. Keep reading and good luck.
An automotive LSD is a device that goes in your rear differential. The rear differential transmits power from the drive shaft to the two rear wheels on a rear wheel drive car. Normally, due to the construction of the rear differential, if one tire loses traction, the resistance changes greatly between the two tires, and by default the tire with the least traction (the path of least resistance so to speak) will get up to 100% of the torque while the other tire will get up to 0% of the torque. People who used to get stuck in mud would see this. One wheel would spin and spin, while the other just sat there useless.
In today's limited slip differentials, they (suprisingly, I know) limit the slip in the differential. To make a long story short, each LSD has a lock up ratio. This is either the maximum or minimum amount of torque that will be allowed to be transmitted to the wheel with the least traction. For example, a kleemann style lsd has what they call a 60% torque lock up ratio, which AMG would call a 40% torque lock up ratio, you can see that 60% and 40% add up to 100% thus solving the mystery for why two different names describe the same LSD. This means that either the right or the left depending on terrain conditions will get no more than 60% of the driveline torque split. The other wheel will get 40% torque split. By doing this, not only do you make sure you are going down the line straight, because of having power generated in rough balance on both sides of the car, but also you get more tire traction.
Let's say each tire has 100% traction. Let's also say that under ideal conditions the tires each see 50% of the torque, using 100% of the traction available to each tire for 200% traction total. Well let's also assume you all the sudden have ice under your left rear tire, now this tire will slip fully and the left rear tire will see 100% of the torque from the rear differential which has no traction. The right rear wheel will get 0% of the torque so it's available traction doesn't matter. This leaves you with 0% traction, no traction from the left rear because it has no friction with the road service to push the car forward, and no traction from the right rear because no torque from the engine is driving it. You essentially are 1 wheel drive with zero friction, which is why you go nowhere.
Now let's do this with the LSD on from Kleemann. Same situation except now when the left rear slips only 60% of the torque goes to that useless left rear tire, while 40% of the torque goes to the tire with traction. Hence you use 40%/50% or 80% of the traction available to this tire and can keep moving forward. You still have no friction with the road surface on the left rear tire, but you now have 40% torque to the right rear. Since 50% torque used 100% of the tires available traction due to friction with the road surface, 40% torque yields 80% traction. 80% is much better than 0% any day of the week.
On a mercedes, you have asr which is a traction control device. When one drive wheel is sensed to be slipping, it brakes that wheel, which cancels out some of the torque from the engine, and if that doesn't work, then it cuts the throttle of the engine to diminish the source of the torque, that is to say the engine. This robs time and power, but keeps you going straight. This has been dubbed an electronic LSD, but really is a bunch of BS designed to keep people happy.
Let's say a tire under hard acceleration loses traction at 80% of the torque going to that wheel, well with a 60% torque lock up ration on an LSD, you prevent 80% of the torque from going to that wheel, so it never loses grip. The eLSD, would just drop back the throttle until the tire stopped slipping, i.e. until it had stopped seeing 80% or more of the torque supply.
Lastly, you may wonder why not limit the torque to 50%, well in a straight line drag race this might be a good idea, or it might not be, for much more complex reasons than I am going to go into here, but the curves answer this question simply. When you turn with a 50% torque split only the steering wheel steers the car, but with a 60% torque split the outside wheel gets pushed the least so has the most tire traction with the ground. Because of this unequal torque split and more traction being available with the ground to the outside rear wheel, the torque can rotate the outside rear wheel faster than the inside. This increases turning, causing a pivot motion like in basketball. This allows you to turn better and use higher speeds through a curve.
I hope this is clear, but it is probably as clear as mud. Keep reading and good luck.
Last edited by rguy; 04-16-2005 at 02:33 PM.
04-16-2005, 02:51 PM
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SL 65 AMG and E63s AMG
Originally Posted by rguy
LSD is a hallucinogen, that can be easily concealed due to it's clear liquid nature. Some people paint it on their fingernails and lick them all day. Some people coat stickers or a piece of paper.......wait a minute, I think you were asking about a limited slip differential....my mistake!
An automotive LSD is a device that goes in your rear differential. The rear differential transmits power from the drive shaft to the two rear wheels on a rear wheel drive car. Normally, due to the construction of the rear differential, if one tire loses traction, the resistance changes greatly between the two tires, and by default the tire with the least traction (the path of least resistance so to speak) will get up to 100% of the torque while the other tire will get up to 0% of the torque. People who used to get stuck in mud would see this. One wheel would spin and spin, while the other just sat there useless.
In today's limited slip differentials, they (suprisingly, I know) limit the slip in the differential. To make a long story short, each LSD has a lock up ratio. This is either the maximum or minimum amount of torque that will be allowed to be transmitted to the wheel with the least traction. For example, a kleemann style lsd has what they call a 60% torque lock up ratio, which AMG would call a 40% torque lock up ratio, you can see that 60% and 40% add up to 100% thus solving the mystery for why two different names describe the same LSD. This means that either the right or the left depending on terrain conditions will get no more than 60% of the driveline torque split. The other wheel will get 40% torque split. By doing this, not only do you make sure you are going down the line straight, because of having power generated in rough balance on both sides of the car, but also you get more tire traction.
Let's say each tire has 100% traction. Let's also say that under ideal conditions the tires each see 50% of the torque, using 100% of the traction available to each tire for 200% traction total. Well let's also assume you all the sudden have ice under your left rear tire, now this tire will slip fully and the left rear tire will see 100% of the torque from the rear differential which has no traction. The right rear wheel will get 0% of the torque so it's available traction doesn't matter. This leaves you with 0% traction, no traction from the left rear because it has no friction with the road service to push the car forward, and no traction from the right rear because no torque from the engine is driving it. You essentially are 1 wheel drive with zero friction, which is why you go nowhere.
Now let's do this with the LSD on from Kleemann. Same situation except now when the left rear slips only 60% of the torque goes to that useless left rear tire, while 40% of the torque goes to the tire with traction. Hence you use 40%/50% or 80% of the traction available to this tire and can keep moving forward. You still have no friction with the road surface on the left rear tire, but you now have 40% torque to the right rear. Since 50% torque used 100% of the tires available traction due to friction with the road surface, 40% torque yields 80% traction. 80% is much better than 0% any day of the week.
On a mercedes, you have asr which is a traction control device. When one drive wheel is sensed to be slipping, it brakes that wheel, which cancels out some of the torque from the engine, and if that doesn't work, then it cuts the throttle of the engine to diminish the source of the torque, that is to say the engine. This robs time and power, but keeps you going straight. This has been dubbed an electronic LSD, but really is a bunch of BS designed to keep people happy.
Let's say a tire under hard acceleration loses traction at 80% of the torque going to that wheel, well with a 60% torque lock up ration on an LSD, you prevent 80% of the torque from going to that wheel, so it never loses grip. The eLSD, would just drop back the throttle until the tire stopped slipping, i.e. until it had stopped seeing 80% or more of the torque supply.
Lastly, you may wonder why not limit the torque to 50%, well in a straight line drag race this might be a good idea, or it might not be, for much more complex reasons than I am going to go into here, but the curves answer this question simply. When you turn with a 50% torque split only the steering wheel steers the car, but with a 60% torque split the outside wheel gets pushed the least so has the most tire traction with the ground. Because of this unequal torque split and more traction being available with the ground to the outside rear wheel, the torque can rotate the outside rear wheel faster than the inside. This increases turning, causing a pivot motion like in basketball. This allows you to turn better and use higher speeds through a curve.
I hope this is clear, but it is probably as clear as mud. Keep reading and good luck.
An automotive LSD is a device that goes in your rear differential. The rear differential transmits power from the drive shaft to the two rear wheels on a rear wheel drive car. Normally, due to the construction of the rear differential, if one tire loses traction, the resistance changes greatly between the two tires, and by default the tire with the least traction (the path of least resistance so to speak) will get up to 100% of the torque while the other tire will get up to 0% of the torque. People who used to get stuck in mud would see this. One wheel would spin and spin, while the other just sat there useless.
In today's limited slip differentials, they (suprisingly, I know) limit the slip in the differential. To make a long story short, each LSD has a lock up ratio. This is either the maximum or minimum amount of torque that will be allowed to be transmitted to the wheel with the least traction. For example, a kleemann style lsd has what they call a 60% torque lock up ratio, which AMG would call a 40% torque lock up ratio, you can see that 60% and 40% add up to 100% thus solving the mystery for why two different names describe the same LSD. This means that either the right or the left depending on terrain conditions will get no more than 60% of the driveline torque split. The other wheel will get 40% torque split. By doing this, not only do you make sure you are going down the line straight, because of having power generated in rough balance on both sides of the car, but also you get more tire traction.
Let's say each tire has 100% traction. Let's also say that under ideal conditions the tires each see 50% of the torque, using 100% of the traction available to each tire for 200% traction total. Well let's also assume you all the sudden have ice under your left rear tire, now this tire will slip fully and the left rear tire will see 100% of the torque from the rear differential which has no traction. The right rear wheel will get 0% of the torque so it's available traction doesn't matter. This leaves you with 0% traction, no traction from the left rear because it has no friction with the road service to push the car forward, and no traction from the right rear because no torque from the engine is driving it. You essentially are 1 wheel drive with zero friction, which is why you go nowhere.
Now let's do this with the LSD on from Kleemann. Same situation except now when the left rear slips only 60% of the torque goes to that useless left rear tire, while 40% of the torque goes to the tire with traction. Hence you use 40%/50% or 80% of the traction available to this tire and can keep moving forward. You still have no friction with the road surface on the left rear tire, but you now have 40% torque to the right rear. Since 50% torque used 100% of the tires available traction due to friction with the road surface, 40% torque yields 80% traction. 80% is much better than 0% any day of the week.
On a mercedes, you have asr which is a traction control device. When one drive wheel is sensed to be slipping, it brakes that wheel, which cancels out some of the torque from the engine, and if that doesn't work, then it cuts the throttle of the engine to diminish the source of the torque, that is to say the engine. This robs time and power, but keeps you going straight. This has been dubbed an electronic LSD, but really is a bunch of BS designed to keep people happy.
Let's say a tire under hard acceleration loses traction at 80% of the torque going to that wheel, well with a 60% torque lock up ration on an LSD, you prevent 80% of the torque from going to that wheel, so it never loses grip. The eLSD, would just drop back the throttle until the tire stopped slipping, i.e. until it had stopped seeing 80% or more of the torque supply.
Lastly, you may wonder why not limit the torque to 50%, well in a straight line drag race this might be a good idea, or it might not be, for much more complex reasons than I am going to go into here, but the curves answer this question simply. When you turn with a 50% torque split only the steering wheel steers the car, but with a 60% torque split the outside wheel gets pushed the least so has the most tire traction with the ground. Because of this unequal torque split and more traction being available with the ground to the outside rear wheel, the torque can rotate the outside rear wheel faster than the inside. This increases turning, causing a pivot motion like in basketball. This allows you to turn better and use higher speeds through a curve.
I hope this is clear, but it is probably as clear as mud. Keep reading and good luck.
04-16-2005, 07:38 PM
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Good info...
But I've seen my friends 04' S55 in Vegas he pulled a good 40' + burn out leaving 2 distinct wheel burn marks side by side on the pavement, how is this possible w/out the LSD? thanks 
04-17-2005, 12:05 PM
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Because the brakes are going just enough on the loose wheel to give it traction. In practice, this is very difficult to do. I have managed it many a time because I have to, but imagine the difference between doing this at 1/4 throttle versus being able to apply power to 3/4 throttle off the line. Big difference there. The reason I say this is difficult to modulate is because if you go even a hair past the point that the computer thinks is safe, it will dial back your throttle. It waits "a decent interval" before allowing you to have your power back. This robs time and power. You are putting a lot of extra torque into that wheel that is getting the brake, and neglecting the other wheel that has more traction left. It looks the same, because they are both slipping some with the road, but in practice, the less loose wheel could be putting more lb-ft and ponies to the ground. Hope this answers your question. I haven't checked page three, so maybe it already got answered.
04-17-2005, 12:09 PM
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As a footnote to my above post, this is an inherently dangerous system. Many people have reported and I have experienced it as well, when you are trying to go for it upon entering traffic, whether you have good traction or not, the computer can preemptively cut your throttle. It is like losing your engine altogether and the car you were trying to get out ahead of, well, let's just say it is still coming at you hot and heavy and you are just praying you get the go pedal back before he t-bones you and it is your fault. That is why I am currently sourcing a LSD. Safety alone, wins my internal Devil Vs. Angel battle.
04-18-2005, 12:44 AM
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To all,
I finally had the privilege of driving the 65 amgs. First I drove the S65 with 1 salesperson and 1 additional passenger.(total of 3 people) The S65 is so plush and quiet. Wow. After the tires hook up and hit about 4K rpm, man the car pulled hard. I would have to say harder than my E55. No drama to it. Just woshhh. But, there is a lag of when you hit the pedal to when the car took off. Yes, the ESP light was blinking even though I hit the pedal around 25mph.
After that, I had the chance to drive an SL65 with just the salesperson. Wow, wow wow. What a difference. The car felt so much sportier. So much in control in terms of suspension. Now, the SL took off harder, even though again I tried to easy into a hard accelaration. The ESP still kept blinking. I can see how everybody is saying that MB needs to do something about the traction issue. I thought the E55 was bad off the line, but this SL and the S 65 is really in need of more rubber.
Getting back into my E55 with my friend and flooring it, the power came on instantly, but didn't pull as hard after 1 second as I remember in the SL. It is always easy to tell how fast a car is going from the fast car to a slower car. It is much harder telling it from going from a slower car to a faster car.
I am not into convertibles, but that SL65 is really an incredible car. Although I think the SL65 AMG are the best looking wheels out there, I think I would want to replace them with at least 305 or 315 in the back.
Just sharing a nice day before I figure out what to start saving up for next.
amgB
I finally had the privilege of driving the 65 amgs. First I drove the S65 with 1 salesperson and 1 additional passenger.(total of 3 people) The S65 is so plush and quiet. Wow. After the tires hook up and hit about 4K rpm, man the car pulled hard. I would have to say harder than my E55. No drama to it. Just woshhh. But, there is a lag of when you hit the pedal to when the car took off. Yes, the ESP light was blinking even though I hit the pedal around 25mph.
After that, I had the chance to drive an SL65 with just the salesperson. Wow, wow wow. What a difference. The car felt so much sportier. So much in control in terms of suspension. Now, the SL took off harder, even though again I tried to easy into a hard accelaration. The ESP still kept blinking. I can see how everybody is saying that MB needs to do something about the traction issue. I thought the E55 was bad off the line, but this SL and the S 65 is really in need of more rubber.
Getting back into my E55 with my friend and flooring it, the power came on instantly, but didn't pull as hard after 1 second as I remember in the SL. It is always easy to tell how fast a car is going from the fast car to a slower car. It is much harder telling it from going from a slower car to a faster car.
I am not into convertibles, but that SL65 is really an incredible car. Although I think the SL65 AMG are the best looking wheels out there, I think I would want to replace them with at least 305 or 315 in the back.
Just sharing a nice day before I figure out what to start saving up for next.
amgB
