What is the truth behind a C63 Tune?
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
There is a programmer available in the US (and Europe for that matter) that allows you to change calibrations on 63 ECUs (the ME97) in less than a minute. This tool will also let you log data from the car at about ten samples a second.
This tool is supplied by professional tuners. I am not trying to be coy here, it is just that I do not know who is and who is not a registered vendor with the forum and thus I do not feel it is appropriate for me to start listing tuners.
The ECU does have to be enabled for the programmer to function. This is not the case for the ME2.7 and 2.8 programmers (compressor, NA and early V12 tt cars) but is necessary on the ME97. Once enabled, you can switch between stock and tuned or tuned and another tune in less than a minute. It does not matter what tune it is. As long as you have the encrypted tune files from your tuner(s), you can swap them at will.
There are hard core types out there using the tool to try different tuner's tunes, put in high octane maps when they go to the strip and "valet" tunes to clamp down the power when they want to limit their cars. All of that is possible and actually quite easy.
I do not sell products to end users, I am not a registered vendor on this forum and I try only to post when I can provide information to the benefit of all. There is confusion surrounding the programmer and thus I feel comfortable responding to technical questions about it. I know the ECUs fairly well (given that I build tools to work with them) so I try to chime in on ECU and technical tuning stuff when I think it will be helpful. I just try to stay away from the sales/best tuner/recommendation posts because my opinion is no better than anyone else’s
This tool is supplied by professional tuners. I am not trying to be coy here, it is just that I do not know who is and who is not a registered vendor with the forum and thus I do not feel it is appropriate for me to start listing tuners.
The ECU does have to be enabled for the programmer to function. This is not the case for the ME2.7 and 2.8 programmers (compressor, NA and early V12 tt cars) but is necessary on the ME97. Once enabled, you can switch between stock and tuned or tuned and another tune in less than a minute. It does not matter what tune it is. As long as you have the encrypted tune files from your tuner(s), you can swap them at will.
There are hard core types out there using the tool to try different tuner's tunes, put in high octane maps when they go to the strip and "valet" tunes to clamp down the power when they want to limit their cars. All of that is possible and actually quite easy.
I do not sell products to end users, I am not a registered vendor on this forum and I try only to post when I can provide information to the benefit of all. There is confusion surrounding the programmer and thus I feel comfortable responding to technical questions about it. I know the ECUs fairly well (given that I build tools to work with them) so I try to chime in on ECU and technical tuning stuff when I think it will be helpful. I just try to stay away from the sales/best tuner/recommendation posts because my opinion is no better than anyone else’s
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 93
C63 AMG
I have the RAT but haven't used it yet. In principle, the RAT seems to be a more elegant solution than buying an extra ECU or removing an ECU for reflash, but that raises the following question for lolachampcar...to the best of your knowledge is there a permanent "tell-tale" that records RPM (max or max over time) that exists in (or separate from) the ECU? And if so, how permanent is "permanent?"
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
I have the RAT but haven't used it yet. In principle, the RAT seems to be a more elegant solution than buying an extra ECU or removing an ECU for reflash, but that raises the following question for lolachampcar...to the best of your knowledge is there a permanent "tell-tale" that records RPM (max or max over time) that exists in (or separate from) the ECU? And if so, how permanent is "permanent?"
One tuner bud did comment that any trouble codes will have freeze frame data associated with them and, naturally, RPM is one of the data values. If the error that drove the code happened to have occurred above the stock rev limit............
Last edited by lolachampcar; Jul 5, 2010 at 03:01 PM. Reason: additional info
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 93
C63 AMG
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
I have a question for the C63 guys out there with stock firmware.
How serious are you about wanting a baseline tune that simply de-restricts the C63 to the E63 specification?
I ask this question as I have a number of tuners using my ME97 programmer. Perhaps I could ask if any of them (registered forum vendors preferred so they could sell here) would be interested in offering an “entry” level tune that does just that, bring the C63 up to E63 specification. Combining an entry point tune with a programmer would allow you guys to test the waters and record before and after data for comparing the stock and tuned performance. If you like the results, your tuner can provided more aggressive tunes which you can then install yourself.
Before anyone asks, I do not tune customer cars and do not sell to end users. Anything sold on this forum will be done through proper forum vendors. I value the ability to discuss technical and market related MB issues here and want to honor forum rules so please do not PM me about private tuning
How serious are you about wanting a baseline tune that simply de-restricts the C63 to the E63 specification?
I ask this question as I have a number of tuners using my ME97 programmer. Perhaps I could ask if any of them (registered forum vendors preferred so they could sell here) would be interested in offering an “entry” level tune that does just that, bring the C63 up to E63 specification. Combining an entry point tune with a programmer would allow you guys to test the waters and record before and after data for comparing the stock and tuned performance. If you like the results, your tuner can provided more aggressive tunes which you can then install yourself.
Before anyone asks, I do not tune customer cars and do not sell to end users. Anything sold on this forum will be done through proper forum vendors. I value the ability to discuss technical and market related MB issues here and want to honor forum rules so please do not PM me about private tuning
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
The tool that installs the calibration and the calibration (tune) itself are best thought of as two separate things.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
I asked around and one of my very experienced MB certified friends offered the following on RPM tell tails-
“They will throw a code for over reving even the older cars with me2.8-2.7. Usually its an indication of a trans slipping. The 722.6 trans has a very common issue with the electrical connector on the side of the trans leaking fluid and if about 1qt. leaks out the trans will code up for impermissable gear ratios and usually over reving. The over reving code will show up in the ecu also. But to my knowlege there is no hard data that gets set anywhere like the porsches do. I know they just like the nissan gtr have a black box that has a go no go for warranty. For the Porsches its for over reving and for the gtr its launch control. My guess the only way rpm on a me97 would be traced is if a fault occurs at that rpm which will show up on freeze frame data with star.”
A tuned file with the RPM limit raised will not throw a code as you will not have exceeded the set RPM limit so it would seem as though only Freeze Frame data from some other Trouble Code that just happened to have occurred at an RPM over stock is the biggest concern.
“They will throw a code for over reving even the older cars with me2.8-2.7. Usually its an indication of a trans slipping. The 722.6 trans has a very common issue with the electrical connector on the side of the trans leaking fluid and if about 1qt. leaks out the trans will code up for impermissable gear ratios and usually over reving. The over reving code will show up in the ecu also. But to my knowlege there is no hard data that gets set anywhere like the porsches do. I know they just like the nissan gtr have a black box that has a go no go for warranty. For the Porsches its for over reving and for the gtr its launch control. My guess the only way rpm on a me97 would be traced is if a fault occurs at that rpm which will show up on freeze frame data with star.”
A tuned file with the RPM limit raised will not throw a code as you will not have exceeded the set RPM limit so it would seem as though only Freeze Frame data from some other Trouble Code that just happened to have occurred at an RPM over stock is the biggest concern.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
I have a question for the C63 guys out there with stock firmware.
How serious are you about wanting a baseline tune that simply de-restricts the C63 to the E63 specification?
I ask this question as I have a number of tuners using my ME97 programmer. Perhaps I could ask if any of them (registered forum vendors preferred so they could sell here) would be interested in offering an “entry” level tune that does just that, bring the C63 up to E63 specification. Combining an entry point tune with a programmer would allow you guys to test the waters and record before and after data for comparing the stock and tuned performance. If you like the results, your tuner can provided more aggressive tunes which you can then install yourself.
Before anyone asks, I do not tune customer cars and do not sell to end users. Anything sold on this forum will be done through proper forum vendors. I value the ability to discuss technical and market related MB issues here and want to honor forum rules so please do not PM me about private tuning
How serious are you about wanting a baseline tune that simply de-restricts the C63 to the E63 specification?
I ask this question as I have a number of tuners using my ME97 programmer. Perhaps I could ask if any of them (registered forum vendors preferred so they could sell here) would be interested in offering an “entry” level tune that does just that, bring the C63 up to E63 specification. Combining an entry point tune with a programmer would allow you guys to test the waters and record before and after data for comparing the stock and tuned performance. If you like the results, your tuner can provided more aggressive tunes which you can then install yourself.
Before anyone asks, I do not tune customer cars and do not sell to end users. Anything sold on this forum will be done through proper forum vendors. I value the ability to discuss technical and market related MB issues here and want to honor forum rules so please do not PM me about private tuning
Assuming this was possible, can't we just de-restrict the C63 ECU to the S63/CL63 ECUs directly (skipping the E63 altogether) ?
Finally, I think the reason why tuners have not been too interested in this was because they were (and still is) kind of doing the same thing but with better results through their own tunes. In other words, why would a C63 owner pay to get a tune that is a generic OEM (less-powered) tune instead of going all the way and getting a proper full tune utilizing as much potential from the tune as possible? Usually if they're going to pay for a tune, they'll want a fully optimized tune unless, of course, it was ridiculously cheaper or if they were not interested in adding any mods in the future.
Last edited by MB_Forever; Jul 7, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,983
Likes: 21
From: Vegas and Vancouver, BC
.
I asked Jerry @ Eurcharged the same question last year. I do not remember the exact details, but it was basically what prompted me to start this thread.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
I would think it would be much less work and significantly much less risk (MB already supports the exact calibration in the E or S so it should be perfectly safe in the C) which must equate to a lower price point. I would think a programmer plus entry level tune equal to the E or S should be well under $1k if not half that.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 160
Likes: 1
E46 M3, '09 C63
I would think it would be much less work and significantly much less risk (MB already supports the exact calibration in the E or S so it should be perfectly safe in the C) which must equate to a lower price point. I would think a programmer plus entry level tune equal to the E or S should be well under $1k if not half that.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,983
Likes: 21
From: Vegas and Vancouver, BC
.
The ECU does have to be enabled for the programmer to function. This is not the case for the ME2.7 and 2.8 programmers (compressor, NA and early V12 tt cars) but is necessary on the ME97. Once enabled, you can switch between stock and tuned or tuned and another tune in less than a minute. It does not matter what tune it is. As long as you have the encrypted tune files from your tuner(s), you can swap them at will
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
The ME97 must be opened and a BDM (Background Debugging Mode) tool used to modify the firmware so the programmer will work. Once done, the end user can move files on and off the ECU at will in under a minute. This includes stock to tuned, tuned to tuned by the same tuner and tuned to tuned from different tuners. Enabling the ME97 for the programmer has nothing to do with tuning. All files are encrypted to the programmer to prevent tuner’s files from being copied and/or distributed. The programmer/logger itself appears as a Mass Storage Class device like a common memory stick so getting logged data from the device or putting tuned files on it is a simple process (drag and drop).
I have not approached Kleemann with the programmer and have no relationship with them. I do not know if they would be interested.
FYI, I am just finishing up testing the data logging on the 2010 C63. The gateway slows down the data rate from a non-gateway rate of 10 samples/second to something like 6 ½. It is not as good as 10 but should still be plenty useful. The gateway is also messing with reprogramming which is proving to be a pain.
I have not approached Kleemann with the programmer and have no relationship with them. I do not know if they would be interested.
FYI, I am just finishing up testing the data logging on the 2010 C63. The gateway slows down the data rate from a non-gateway rate of 10 samples/second to something like 6 ½. It is not as good as 10 but should still be plenty useful. The gateway is also messing with reprogramming which is proving to be a pain.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
I would think it would be much less work and significantly much less risk (MB already supports the exact calibration in the E or S so it should be perfectly safe in the C) which must equate to a lower price point. I would think a programmer plus entry level tune equal to the E or S should be well under $1k if not half that.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Before anyone shoots me down, this is just my opinion and not stated as fact.
Isn't this what this entire thread is all about? I would certainly go for it at that price...I would value the fact that it is an MB tune, and is still considered conservative enough to put a warranty on. Of course, my opinion is because I tend to not mod the car too much.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
Absolutely no doubt on that point. Even if it is a valid MB calibration, it is not the one for that car and MB would have a bone to pick. The nice thing about the programmer is that you can install the correct C63 calibration in under a minute should you be concerned about what was in the car.
My comment is from a “tuner’s risk” standpoint. As a tuner, you would simply be providing a state or level of tune that MB feels is good enough for their warranty in the E class. As a tuner, if you shoulder more risk with more aggressive tunes, you are probably building in a set aside to allow you to deal with any customer issues in the future. Eliminating the need for that set aside may allow for the cheaper price point.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 93
C63 AMG
I asked around and one of my very experienced MB certified friends offered the following on RPM tell tails-
“They will throw a code for over reving even the older cars with me2.8-2.7. Usually its an indication of a trans slipping. The 722.6 trans has a very common issue with the electrical connector on the side of the trans leaking fluid and if about 1qt. leaks out the trans will code up for impermissable gear ratios and usually over reving. The over reving code will show up in the ecu also. But to my knowlege there is no hard data that gets set anywhere like the porsches do. I know they just like the nissan gtr have a black box that has a go no go for warranty. For the Porsches its for over reving and for the gtr its launch control. My guess the only way rpm on a me97 would be traced is if a fault occurs at that rpm which will show up on freeze frame data with star.”
A tuned file with the RPM limit raised will not throw a code as you will not have exceeded the set RPM limit so it would seem as though only Freeze Frame data from some other Trouble Code that just happened to have occurred at an RPM over stock is the biggest concern.
“They will throw a code for over reving even the older cars with me2.8-2.7. Usually its an indication of a trans slipping. The 722.6 trans has a very common issue with the electrical connector on the side of the trans leaking fluid and if about 1qt. leaks out the trans will code up for impermissable gear ratios and usually over reving. The over reving code will show up in the ecu also. But to my knowlege there is no hard data that gets set anywhere like the porsches do. I know they just like the nissan gtr have a black box that has a go no go for warranty. For the Porsches its for over reving and for the gtr its launch control. My guess the only way rpm on a me97 would be traced is if a fault occurs at that rpm which will show up on freeze frame data with star.”
A tuned file with the RPM limit raised will not throw a code as you will not have exceeded the set RPM limit so it would seem as though only Freeze Frame data from some other Trouble Code that just happened to have occurred at an RPM over stock is the biggest concern.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 329
Likes: 21
12C P85DL
Ok,
Let's give this a go.
I would like to see an unbiased evaluation of the entry level E63 calibration in a C63 using a programmer. I would be willing to provide two programmers and supporting file editing for two C63 customers with stock cars wanting to try the concept. These guys/gals need to be unbiased and willing to go through each step and document their experience in a dedicated thread if this is to be of any real value to other readers.
I believe it will be most useful if the testers would log data (three gear rip down an appropriate road or a dyno pull) before anything is done to provide a baseline. After that, I will enable the ECU for programming and provide a stock and E63 map based set of files. The owner can then switch back and forth between the two and post log data for each (along with dyno plots if the owner is willing).
Note: I am not a registered vendor on this forum and I am not selling anything. I will provide the hardware and support for free out of an interest in seeing if this concept has merit. If a long term forum member (not a newbie like me) wants to start a separate thread, I will post there as well.
Let's give this a go.
I would like to see an unbiased evaluation of the entry level E63 calibration in a C63 using a programmer. I would be willing to provide two programmers and supporting file editing for two C63 customers with stock cars wanting to try the concept. These guys/gals need to be unbiased and willing to go through each step and document their experience in a dedicated thread if this is to be of any real value to other readers.
I believe it will be most useful if the testers would log data (three gear rip down an appropriate road or a dyno pull) before anything is done to provide a baseline. After that, I will enable the ECU for programming and provide a stock and E63 map based set of files. The owner can then switch back and forth between the two and post log data for each (along with dyno plots if the owner is willing).
Note: I am not a registered vendor on this forum and I am not selling anything. I will provide the hardware and support for free out of an interest in seeing if this concept has merit. If a long term forum member (not a newbie like me) wants to start a separate thread, I will post there as well.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 7
2017 Mini Cooper S Clubman ALL4 - British Racing Green
Sounds like a great idea, but regardless of the mapping you code to the ECU, the moment you enable the ECU to be programmed, the warranty is void, even if yo do not change any mappings and leave it stock.. The question is, with this function enabled, short of them actually looking at the hardware, or running a test write to program the ECU, how would they know the function has been enabled.
