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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

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AMG GTR brakes failure - Mercedes refuses warranty

 
Old 01-11-2019, 07:55 PM
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Last edited by spyder987; 01-14-2019 at 12:08 AM. Reason: Avoid any further ridicule
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
I took my SL65 with CCBs (2500 miles) to Laguna. Ran 2 sessions 11 laps each. I am a 7/10 ths driver. 1:48-1:50 per lap. RACE setting, ESC on. 2/3 of the way thru the first session the pedal went to floor. It pumped back up. Second session, same thing. Pulled into the pits after the 2nd session, front rotors had a 2mm grove near the outer edge with a trail of brake/rotor dust. Took it to the dealer. $16,000 repair estimate. Rotors, calipers, pads, hoses, sensors, bolts, wheel bearings, etc. Dealer said no warranty. Currently working with US MB customer service.

Notes on the diagnostics: Overheated the brakes, caliper dust boots cracked. Sensor wire harness melted. Rotors are grooved all the way around. Pads are at 8 mm front and 10 mm rear.

So in my case pad wear was not the issue. As others have said in this thread, AMG markets these cars as being track capable with a RACE setting.

The pictures of my rotors look the OP's.

Good news, the SL didn't blow sound!
So you think the SL65 is a track car ?
Without track prep ?



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Old 01-11-2019, 09:20 PM
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:12 PM
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[QUOTE Never said it was a track car. Why would you insinuate that? ............I took my SL65 with CCBs (2500 miles) to Laguna. Ran 2 sessions 11 laps each. I am a 7/10 ths driver. 1:48-1:50 per lap. RACE setting, ESC on. 2/3 of the way thru the first session the pedal went to floor. It pumped back up. Second session, same thing. Pulled into the pits after the 2nd session, front rotors had a 2mm grove near the outer edge with a trail of brake/rotor dust. /QUOTE]

Duhh
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:29 PM
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:21 AM
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Spyder, I believe he’s being captain obvious in that you tracked 22 laps with warnings of brakes overheating.....
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:30 AM
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Not at all. It was a high performance driving event (HPDE). I wasn't out to set a lap time. I simply provided that as a point of reference for those who know Laguna.

I checked with my dealer before hand. They didn't advise anything special regarding setup and in fact said that some of their customers do track their cars.

I asked about brake fluid and they said it is intended to match the performance of the brake system (assuming that is what you referenced as a 'warning' which I interpreted as brake fade).

It is obvious to me now that crass individuals like ronin should not bother responding to posts like mine. His choice of language is offensive and reflects on his lack of any integrity.
Phil,

I’m sorry what happened to your brakes and the costs you’ll incur, but for anyone who has driven various cars on track, this was an event just waiting to happen. You received very poor advice from your dealership btw!

A heavy car like the SL65 relying on its ESC to remain stable on track is going to extract a very heavy toll on its brakes; it simply is not a reasonable choice to be trying for quick laps on any road course unless you’ve prepared the car. By this I mean: change the brake fluid to an ultra high quality DOT 4; (you lost the pedal on track by ‘boiling’ your brake fluid); attempting to find some more road course oriented brake pads instead of the street pads that the SL65 comes with, and I hate to say it, drive the car at 5/10, not 7-8/10. If you want to be that committed find a car that can take road course ‘abuse’ in stride at an HPDE for 20-25 minutes; (and in my experience the GT R can easily do so), or buy a dedicated track car after you’ve gotten tons of experience.

A ‘slow’ street car that can’t generate the high speeds of the SL and a car that weighs perhaps 3,000 lbs versus north of 4,000 lbs can maybe tolerate the abuse without any major issues, but those cars these days are few and far between because the vast majority of cars can generate decent speed and most also weigh far more than cars did 10-20 years ago. The BMW 3 series cars are a great example.

I hope that MB offers you some assistance with this.

Bish
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder987 View Post
Not at all. It was a high performance driving event (HPDE). I wasn't out to set a lap time. I simply provided that as a point of reference for those who know Laguna.

I checked with my dealer before hand. They didn't advise anything special regarding setup and in fact said that some of their customers do track their cars.

I asked about brake fluid and they said it is intended to match the performance of the brake system (assuming that is what you referenced as a 'warning' which I interpreted as brake fade).

It is obvious to me now that crass individuals like ronin should not bother responding to posts like mine. His choice of language is offensive and reflects on his lack of any integrity.
Oh my, pointing out the fact that you were so damn stupid to take a heavy [4,000+lbs.] totally a street car to the track and beat on it is offensive.
So sensitive....



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Old 01-12-2019, 01:54 PM
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Interesting post here.

Question: what rotor/pads/brake fluid combination does the Formula 1 Safety car have for the races? I have personally seen the safety car do 7 laps at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve during the Canadian Grand Prix (Montreal) and it did not have any problems with the extremely heavy braking zones.

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Old 01-12-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by chris135b View Post
Interesting post here.

Question: what rotor/pads/brake fluid combination does the Formula 1 Safety car have for the races? I have personally seen the safety car do 7 laps at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve during the Canadian Grand Prix (Montreal) and it did not have any problems with the extremely heavy braking zones.

-C
So the GT R is supposed to come with OEM DOT 4 brake fluid. I’m not sure if all MB’s with CCMs come with DOT 4; I doubt it as I bet it’s car specific, not brake system specific. Regardless I’m sure the F1 GT R has ultra high performance brake fluid installed. Also, the GT R’s OEM brake pads work very well in my experience as a great compromise street/track pad; however I wouldn’t be surprised if the F1 Safety car doesn’t come with the Pagid RSC1s which are more track oriented.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


So the GT R is supposed to come with OEM DOT 4 brake fluid. I’m not sure if all MB’s with CCMs come with DOT 4; I doubt it as I bet it’s car specific, not brake system specific. Regardless I’m sure the F1 GT R has ultra high performance brake fluid installed. Also, the GT R’s OEM brake pads work very well in my experience as a great compromise street/track pad; however I wouldn’t be surprised if the F1 Safety car doesn’t come with the Pagid RSC1s which are more track oriented.
All of the AMG cars are using Mercedes branded dot 4. Mercedes doesn't even know the wet /dry boiling points of their branded dot 4.
I could feel the peddle get soft on my test drive through the canyons.
I had my dealership bleed and replace my AMG cars with Castrol SFR fluid before I drove them off the lot.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:20 PM
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ronin, since brake fluids are anhydrous, how long do you leave it in the car before flushing with new?
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by boltonblue View Post
ronin, since brake fluids are anhydrous, how long do you leave it in the car before flushing with new?
I do mine every 6 months, so I've done it twice now and will do it again in May.
If the peddle gets soft I will do it sooner.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by boltonblue View Post
ronin, since brake fluids are anhydrous, how long do you leave it in the car before flushing with new?
Castrol state that SRF needs to be exchanged, (flushed) every 18 months. Unless you’re tracking the car, in which case a quick bleed prior to each road course weekend is never a bad idea, you can leave it in for the 18 months and replace when you hit that amount of time. If the brake fluid replacement has been very well done, meaning no air bubbles in the system especially within the caliper, you should never experience a ‘soft’ pedal from SRF with a street driven car.

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Old 01-13-2019, 05:27 PM
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For the record I tracked my GTR with CCB's (stock rotors and pads with fresh SRF) heavily this weekend and I experienced zero brake fade. I'm a very fast driver pushing the car 10/10ths, had the second fastest lap time of the weekend on street tires.
When I get my Forgeline's and switch to slicks that will be the real test.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR
For the record I tracked my GTR with CCB's (stock rotors and pads with fresh SRF) heavily this weekend and I experienced zero brake fade. I'm a very fast driver pushing the car 10/10ths, had the second fastest lap time of the weekend on street tires.
When I get my Forgeline's and switch to slicks that will be the real test.
Interesting.

I can say that when I looked at the Safety Car this year in Montreal on the Pitlane walkabout day (Thursday of the weekend) and during the AMG Tour in Affalterbach, nothing seemed "special" with the brakes other than them being CCBs. Next time I go back for the tour, I'll have to inquire more about the setup. 🙂
BTW, I HIGHLY recommend the AMG Tour! It is very enlightening to hear directly from the folks that build our engines!

-C
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


Castrol state that SRF needs to be exchanged, (flushed) every 18 months. Unless you’re tracking the car, in which case a quick bleed prior to each road course weekend is never a bad idea, you can leave it in for the 18 months and replace when you hit that amount of time. If the brake fluid replacement has been very well done, meaning no air bubbles in the system especially within the caliper, you should never experience a ‘soft’ pedal from SRF with a street driven car.

Bish
I have not experienced any soft pedal in my GTS in the canyons on it's steel brakes but I have had soft pedal even with Castrol SFR in my wagon with it's CCBs.
The oddest thing is the wagon developed soft peddle on the uphill with very light braking. The ABS/Traction control is very aggressive on the brakes.
I have never had a car going uphill develop a soft pedal before.
We need brake cooling airflow..
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:17 PM
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Would DOT 5.1 brake fluid solve all the boiling issues?
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ronin amg View Post
I have not experienced any soft pedal in my GTS in the canyons on it's steel brakes but I have had soft pedal even with Castrol SFR in my wagon with it's CCBs.
The oddest thing is the wagon developed soft peddle on the uphill with very light braking. The ABS/Traction control is very aggressive on the brakes.
I have never had a car going uphill develop a soft pedal before.
We need brake cooling airflow..
That sounds like cooked fluid, or an air bubble
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MalibuScott View Post
Would DOT 5.1 brake fluid solve all the boiling issues?
Castrol SRF.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MalibuScott View Post
Would DOT 5.1 brake fluid solve all the boiling issues?

No. DOT 5.1 is silicone based iirc and is not recommended in our cars as it can damage the braking system.

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Old 01-14-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BenzGTR View Post
That sounds like cooked fluid, or an air bubble
Difficult to ‘cook’ SRF, even in an E63S wagon. The more times brake fluid is flushed, the more chances of getting air in the system. This is why I only exchange the SRF in my car once a year at a specialized shop, and then just do small bleeds as necessary. Getting small bubblies out of the calipers can be a huge PITA.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post


Difficult to ‘cook’ SRF, even in an E63S wagon. The more times brake fluid is flushed, the more chances of getting air in the system. This is why I only exchange the SRF in my car once a year at a specialized shop, and then just do small bleeds as necessary. Getting small bubblies out of the calipers can be a huge PITA.

I only use SRF fluid since day one in my wagon and the fluid is pressure bled so their is no chance for air to enter the system.
The ABS traction control is just super aggressive on the CCBs. It works amazingly well with the 720 hp AWD of the wagon but it does cook the brakes and fluid going uphill in a 4,700 lb. wagon..
I guess I should stop videotaping Ducatis behind me in the canyons..

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