JWS3

I am still considering one of the new C350 4 matic models when out later this year. As a 4 time and current BMW owner (present car= 2002 530 sport) I never thought I'd consider a Benz, but the new BMWs are just frighteningly ugly. The worst offenders are the new E60 5 series and Z4.
At first, I was looking at an E class, but after researching its depreciation and realizing it is horrendously overpriced I started to look elsewhere, until I saw the re-styled 2005 C class. Its interior and general appointments are significantly improved over earlier models. In many way seems to rival the E, but for 15K less (40-45 loaded vs 60). I wasn't thrilled with the weak engines available, but became rather interested when I heard the 3.5 motor would soon be available. It should make a profound difference in performance.
My questions are thus:

1) Did anyone here cross shop at BMW ? How about an E class? Any thoughts, comments? Compare & contrast?
2) Any comments/contrasts when comparing a C to an E? Other than size, an available V8 and a few useless gadgets how similar are they under the skin? My brief examination noted similar build quality, with the E having a modestly nicer interior. It wasn't worth 15K more, however.
3) I see the 4matic model appears to come with 16" wheels, which seems rather odd in this day and age. Anyone switch to 17s? What kind of difference did it make?
4) The sport model alone seems to have a sport suspension, which unfortunately is not available in the 4matic. Any real world differenences in the set ups?
Thanks in advance. This board has already provided a wealth of help and information.

Jim

postoak

Will there be people in the back seat? The C, although a couple of inches longer than the 3-series, SEEMS to have a little LESS back seat legroom.

JWS3

Although I am 6'0, my wife 5'10" and my two young daughters quite tall for their age, this car would not be our primary family vehicle. For that we have an '05 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited w/ AWD. The van is not as "cool" as my wife would hope, but it does its job very well and is actually quite nice.
This car would be for the most part my "personal" car, which my wife and I would use when going out. I pick the girls up on occasion at daycare/school, but its a short trip.
The rear seat room in my current 530 is none too great, but marginally better than the 3 series I had before. Nobody other than the kids has ever been in it in the 36K miles I've put on the car.
Although I very much liked the E, it to me just wasn't worth the outrageous asking price. By the time I loaded up an E500 it listed at something like 68K. The car is nice, but not worth tht kind of $$-at least to me. The C, however, seemed like a 4/5 scale E, but for 15-20K less. Without the new motor and new interior I'd have never considered it. The 3.5L engine and substantially changed interior makes the car much more appealing.
Since I've been in BMW land for the last 9 yrs and am not nearly as familiar w/ MB I welcome the help and input of all.

wingless

The M3 is my current top contender for my next ride. The Sequential Manual Gearbox, SMG, looks very cool.

If MB offered an AMG C-Class Sports Coupe, then that would win, hands down.

The C320 has acceptable power. The manual transmission has the smoothest shifter that I've ever used.

My extended commute has me moving right along and I enjoy the power and handling. It is good to be back in a rear drive again.

The electronics on my current MB satisfy most of my requirements, and I am very demanding. Go for the COMMAND and the BIX. The HK is fine, but more watts are in order. This is my first and probably not my last MB.

The biggest detractor I've noticed for the M3, along with the other BMW models, is the NAV antenna. It appears that this large vertical fin will induce body roll during cornering. That is, the top of the vehicle wants to go straight, from the aerodynamics of the wing, while the wheels and chassis induce cornering down low. BMW should make the rear of the NAV antenna move right and left, like on an airplane, to air in the cornering and diminish the body roll.

mbny

I think he's looking for a 4-door and being that a loaded up E is alittle overpriced in his opinion, i'm sure a loaded M3 would be as well. My cousin has a silver 04' M3 and it really is an exciting car to drive. everything is so tight and solid. awesome car!

My dad has the 04' E320 4matic with every available option. Sticker was well over $60k, but he loves the car and i'd take it in a heartbeat. Appearance package adds a nice touch to it. Being that your daughters are tall, i'd suggest checking to see if they can comfortably fit in the rear of the C-class. Although it won't be your primary family vehicle, it'll still be nice to know that you can all sit in the car in comfort when need/want to.

wingless: The sharkfin antenna on the bmw is for BMW Assist. I'm not a big fan of it either, but you can take it off and put a smaller box type one on there. Alot of people who don't want to pay for BMW Assist after it's first free year, will use it for their in-car cell phone connection or satellite radio.

mbny

alright Jim, i'm gonna try and help you out here. I don't own any of these vehicles, but most of my family drive MB and BMW so i've driven just about every MB class and BMW series. Perfect example for you is one of my aunt's just traded in her 01' 530i (non-sport) for her 04' E320 4matic. (She actually got the same car as my father only no appearance package, no navi, and a few other options). She was alittle upset that the E doesn't handle as well as her 5 did and is not as "peppy" as she says. With the BMW you see a twisty road or a tight turn or curve, over time it becomes second nature to you to just grin and speed it up. To really sum it up for you, the 5-series is more sporty with alittle added comfort whereas the E-class is more luxurious with a little added sportiness to it.

i drove the C240 and C230k sport sedan. the difference in handling between the two is like night and day. i will honestly say that the sport sedans handle almost as well as my BMW coupe, but not quite. i was very impressed when i first test drove it. C240 has a boring and more luxury feel to it and i think it has an older person look to it. just my 2 cents, good luck on your decision, keep us posted

wingless

The difference in interior space is subtle, between the two and four door models. Both have the same rear legroom, the two door loses an inch in headroom but the rear hip and rear shoulder room are where the difference shows.

My vehicle is not the primary family ride, but when needed, four adults pile in and we get to our destination.

There is little need for a 4matic with the high-tech snow-only tires on the market. Omitting this and the automatic transmission are to places to reduce the vehicle cost, without a significant sacrifice. Leather and HK sound are also options that may omitted to constrain the cost.

My C320 Sports Coupe has only one visible antenna, which is acceptable to me. My wife’s Cayenne Turbo has NO visible antennas, which is even better.

To go from a huge ugly antenna, to a small ugly antenna is not a great choice. There are still holes in the sheet metal precluding changing to no antenna. There is still no hidden location to maintain functionality.

mbny

yeah, i'd prefer no antenna as well. but i do like the ones mb uses for their navi i guess? my dad has it on his E class. BMW's sharkfin is abit odd looking, so i'd say anything smaller and less noticable is an improvment. but yes, unfortunately there is a hole in the roof which prevents you from eliminating it altogether without some bodywork.

JWS3

Someone noted above that 4matic is almost un-necessary with today's snow tires. I must disagree. My current 530 has dedicated snows (Dunlop SportM2) and, to put it bluntly, stinks in the snow. The difference is especially apparent when comparing it to my wife's AWD car. Yes, traction control and snows go a long way, but in my rather hilly area RWD cars just don't fair too well.
I much prefer the look of the wood trimmed interior and the overall luxury feel of the non sport model. However, I'd also prefer the sport suspension, sport exterior cues and 4matic. What I really want is a sports car on the outside and a luxury car on the inside. Not possible from what I can see. If I get the C350 w/ 4matic, perhaps I could use the stock 16" wheels for dedicated snows (maybe the new Dunlop sport M3??) and then get 17" wheels and more performance oriented tires for the rest of the year. I wonder how much of a difference the 17" wheels and better tires would make. I'd keep the stock 16" all seasons for trade in time.
Still can't believe I'm even considering an MB after 4 BMWs. But, the new BMW designs are beyond fugly, iDrive is just plain silly and I am tired of having a car utterly useless in the snow. I really liked the E500, but think its just not worth 65K, especially since it depreciates like nothing I've ever seen. The C, however, seems well made and fully equipped with damn near everything together with a much better 3.5 motor would sell for around 45K-- a 15-20K difference. The E was nice, but not worth this much more IMO.
All comments & suggestions still welcome.

gaogi

After reading what you want in a car, it seems like you should also look at Audi's. The new A6 has an amazing interior. If you can get past the big nose, it's actually a very beautiful car.

mbny

i use the blizzaks on my stock 17's on the 330 coupe and although it allows my car to be driven in the snow, it definitely doesn't drive as well as any AWD car. i won't say it stinks in the snow however. i've never driven my bmw in heavy snow until recently which i got caught in the blizzard in westchester NY and had to drive back to Long Island which was roughly a 58 mile drive. i would've been screwed on the stock michelin pilot sports, but with the blizzaks and DSC the car handled very well. i was getting pretty nervous since i was seeing many bmw's stuck in the snow. one was an E36 3-series stuck in the middle of the parkway. but my father only drives AWD cars and i feel that they can usually be driven quite normally in the snow whereas i have to use caution even with the snow tires in the bmw. snow tires just allows me to get from point A to B but with caution and confidence that i will eventually get to my destination. personally if i was looking for an AWD sedan and was considering spending less than what the E500 4matic would run, i'd go with the Audi S4. but that's just my opinion.

JWS3

I thought it was soon to be replaced? I did look at the current, perhaps soon to be old version, but didn't care for the dark interiors. At this point in my life I'd like luxury AND power. You had limited choices at most, all of which were too dark for my liking. Also, I can't get past Audi's spotty reputation and perception as a "2nd tier" brand. The C350 should be capable of 0-60 in around 6 or so. Not too bad at all. Just about even with an E500, but with vastly greater gas mileage. I'm curious to see how it'll do in 0-100, or if it runs out of steam prematurely like the C320 did.

postoak

Do you really think the E90 is that ugly? From what I've seen of it, it looks okay. Since it is supposed to be about the same length as the C class and wider, maybe you should go that way.

mbny

I just love the look and exhaust note of the S4. i think it's a great car but yes it will soon be replaced. i believe production has ended on the current and the new style won't be out until end of this year or next year. dealer showed me pics of the new one and although i don't really care too much for the new style of the A4, the S4 looks much better with the minor aggressive exterior changes, especially in black. if you don't mind having the soon to be older style, i'm sure you can probably still find a dealer with a new one in inventory.

gaogi

Actually, people over on AudiWorld has indicated that the new S4 is in transit to dealers. Probably looking at April/May availability. Seeing the new A4 in person, it does look much better than in photos. But the A6 still tops them all. I think it has a much better interior than MB and BMW. The 4.2 has power to spare (but will run you up into $60K). The nose is what kills it for a lot of people, but it grows on you.

JWS3

I am indeed looking at the new 3, but would NOT go near it in its first year. Look at all the BS owners of new 5,7 and Z4 models went thru..ughhh.
The main problem with the 3 is its interior. The non-Nav version is almost as plain as the utterly dull and industrial 5 series, while the Nav verison is infested with iDrive. Neither version bespeaks any semblance of luxury even for a 25K car, much less a 45K one.
Therein lies the issue- I want a luxury car, but with sporting performance and a QUIET interior-no droning engine sounds like the current 330xi. Loud gets old fast in a daily driver. BMW gives one alot of sport, but "0" luxury, while MB give more luxury and skimps on the sport. Audi is "OK", but it seems a bit downmarket, not to mention iffy qualty.

Outland

Please tell me this is a joke. No one is really this dense.

Outland

I wouldn't call it ugly, but it is rather dull. THe current 3 series(save the M3), while not a real looker in my book, at least does its part to look athletic, and certainly it looks BMW. The new one, is just well, timid. I think the new 5 series looks like what happens when a Kia has sex with a Pontiac, but at least its not timid. New 7 has grown on me....and I actually really like the Z4, the Z3 was not a bad looking car, I just like the Z4 better.

THe latest, refreshed C Class, OTOH, is quite striking, especially in red or black with Bix and some rollers.

wingless

That is a limb that I am not prepared to climb out onto, as that would now obviously not be correct.

Luthor

Those seem like some very good ideas. On the other hand, I rather wish 4Matic were available on the C350 with the Sport features, including not only the suspension pieces but also the manual transmission -- and the 17-inch wheels. I'd probably just leave the all-season tires on there year round.

Incendiary

So you want AWD, sporty, luxury, prestige. What do you HAVE to have (i.e., must be German, must be AWD, must be MB or BMW) and what do you NOT want (no Japanese, no Audi, no FWD, etc.)?

Based on what you've said so far, I'd get a 2005 (B6) S4 and just suck up that it's an Audi. Everyone talks about how good quattro is, though, but from people who've had both quattro and 4matic, I've actually heard 4matic is better in the snow. Not sure about dry or rain.

What about the M35x or RL?

Guest0001

Jim,

When I purchased my car I looked BMW 3, Audi A4, MB E320, CLK320. Out of these choices I purchased MY C320 because it best suit my needs and it was within my price range.

I have not driven an E500 but I have got a chance to drive the E320 with Airmatic and the drive is much different then the C-Class. Its quieter and more heavier(especially in turns) and the interior looks classier. Its definitely alot more refined in terms of driving dynamics. I would definitely by the E500 if I could because of its V8, interior design, more prestige etc. I think the key word is you said "looked" I feel you should drive the C and the E back to back and you can better a decision. As for the interior materials the leather and wood is nicer then the C but I dont think there is a huge difference so I can understand how you feel on that. Also with the Airmatic and and Sensotronic brakes there is a more of a chance something might go wrong. Forget about keeping the car out of warranty. As for the C, I really like its size, Luxury, Sportiness, and value compared to an E. It has less of the electronics so its less likely to be a headache. It really depends on what you want, how much you want to spend, how much prestige you want, how much power you want.or you can you ask yourself how much of those do I need.

Fastbuck

Jim

I had a similar issue with the new BMW styling direction and moved from a 2001 530 to a 2004 E320 CDI and from a 2002 320 to a 2005 C 200k Sports Coupe.

The MBs are very different cars from the BMW. The ride is a lot more forgiving than the BMWs which could on occasions loosen the fillings in your teeth if the tarmac was not very smooth. The E does not handle just as well as the 530 did but there is not a huge difference once you get used to the dead feel of the steering for about the first quarter turn of the wheel. In contrast, the drive characteristics of the 2005 C with the "direct control steering" etc closely matches the 3.

I have absolutely no regrets moving to MB en-masse. I would never say that I wouldn't go back to BMW in the future, but my next car will be a MB. Possibly a W164 M class. I would say that the on-snow traction on the E is marginally better than the 5. However, neither are good. We can't get 4-matic in the UK, so that's why I'm considering the M.

Just a note. The size of the C is obviously much smaller than the 5. Can't really compare as they are in different vehicle classes.


Good luck with your decision. I'm sure you'll be happy with what ever you get.

JWS3

Simple. I could not stand the interior colors available in the S4. They were all shades of black or grey, except for the one weird blue one. I much prefer colors like stone or tan. To some this may seem odd, but I do not in the least care for dark interiors.
As for the Infiniti, it was like other Nissans. Very light and felt too flimsy--like things would break off in my hands. Even the sheet metal felt 2 gauges too thin. The RL was better, but felt ponderous and slow for a supposedly 300hp car. Too disconnected and sterile.
I really liked the E500, but can't justify a 15-20K premium for a car that, to me, is worth at most 5-7K more, especially when I looked at the steep rate it depreciates. It is not inaccurate to say the E absolutely plummets in value rather quickly. For example. a 68K list E500 4matic selling for 63-64 would in my area by worth all of 48 after year one per multiple sources. Ouch....
Plus, in these times of spiraling gas prices, 16mpg for .2 secs advantage 0-60 over a C350 just doesn't make sense. And, the C should get high 20s.
What I really want is a cross between the C and the E. I may well settle for a loaded C350 4 matic and put some decent 17"wheels & tires on it. Even w/ pretty much all the options it would go out the door for 43-44K. I can do much w/ the 20K not spent on an E. I still look at used ones, but havn't seen any I care for or are priced right. Can't bring myself to give a dealer 10K more than I would get if I traded it for whatever reason in a week. Not that I would, of course, but you get the idea. Besides, we just bought my wife a Toyota Sienna XLE Ltd AWD van, so I don't need huge amounts of room in "my" car. The Sienna is actually quite nice--like a large Lexus.

Luthor

Assuming that these sources are accurate, then why not buy a 1-year-old E500 4Matic? At 48K, the E500 has everything you're seeking, for the same price as a new C350 4Matic Luxury (including the aftermarket 17-inch wheels and tires) without the compromises you prefer not to make. And having depreciated so much during its first year, your E500's value should stabilize in the second year, unlike a new C350 -- which is just waiting to start its own plummet when you drive it off the lot (you'll never recoup the price of the new wheels, for starters). Add $2K to the price of the E500 and get a Starmark one if you fear buying someone else's problem car, and you get the free maintenance that MB discontinued in '05 too. No DVD-Navi, though, and sorry 'bout the gas prices.