e1000

How much would a turbo be for a C230 (1.8L)? The motor is already FI so it should lend well to turbocharging.

Outland

Figure 700 for a turbo. The real costs here are the stand alone controller, the custom manifold, and lots of tuning time-. But yeah, it would be a helluva good motor to go turbo. I would think that just freed of the parasitic loss, the engine would be making 220-230HP on the same 11 psi.

dmatre

Given that only a header for the M271 is $2K, (https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=Header) I don't see how you're going to realistically reach the performance of the C350 with an M271 plus $10K.

There are a lot of 'maybes', 'coulds', and 'shoulds', but very little in actual 'dids' for the M271.

Right now, you can walk into your dealer and put you money on the table for a C350. You would get a great car, that starts in the morning, runs well in high-temperatures and stop-and-go traffic, and has a warranty. The 3.5L engine is running a relatively unstressed 77 hp/liter.

On the other hand, you could invest $$$$ in a turbo, tuning, etc. You would end up with a peaky and tempermental engine, running at a high-strung 140hp/liter. This extra power comes with penalties . . . more power requires more fuel - bigger injectors. More fuel produces more heat - larger radiator and intercooler required. More heat means severe problems for rubber/plastic items in the engine compartment (anybody ever own an 3rd generation RX7TT???). AND, should something happen during testing (or afterward), you now have to hit the wallet to replace the burned-out lump that you just melted.

It just doesn't seem logical to invest all that time/money into modding the M271. Even if you do get it all working, most likely the low-end torque of the 3.5L will get the job done over the modded M271 in the stoplight wars, so what's the point? AND . . . once you get all this done, any of the present US V8 muscle cars (Hemi, Mustang, Vette, GTO) will smoke you for certain - even in the C350.

Benzes are great cars. Safe, comfortable, good looking, etc. But good drag racers, they're not. Just my opinion.

nuclearhappines

captain nemo you're correct and you're incorrect

you're correct on pressure ratio ... on how the math works yes

but you started from teh assumption that the 1.8l would move 190cfm @ 6000 which is not true... it depends what Volumetric Effeciency (VE) the 1.8 has @ 6000 rpms... this is why a nissan 1.8 may make 140hp @ 6000 and a hyundai 1.8l may make 110hp @ 6000 ...different motors have different volumetric effeciencies...

so to take volumetric effeciency out of the equation ... i worked the other way around ...i worked backwards from the eaton's flow and calculated the motor's flow in cfm (which to me is a more actual figure) ...and i got the eaton numbers @ x rpm @ y psi directly off the eaton flow chart so it is 100% for sure a correct figure of CFM ...

to do things in a 3rd way ... hot rod magazine says:

take the m271 C230 stock hp 198hp, add in the 20 hp of supercharger drive hp so that's 218 hp

218/0.257/4 = 212cfm ... I said 270 (based off the eaton chart) ... you said 330 calculating up from what you assumed them m271 flowed

working backwards you said the m271 flows 191 unboosted

191 *4 * 0.257 = 196 crank hp for an unboosted m271

not to say that hot rod magazine's hp to cfm is perfect , and not to say that most import engines aren't more power effecienct that domestics (Which is probably most of hot rod's reader base and engine experience)....

but i really think that a stock m271 with no boost flowing 191 cfm is highly exaggerated ...

if i were wrong, and what you were saying is true 330cfm @ 11psi then you're saying the stock mp45 is already geared from the factory to 14000 rpms

which is not what i recall people saying about the s/c rpm

http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp45_4th.htm

i understand your math though ...and although i may not have been very explicit on what i was doing, i was doing exactly what you were describing ...

a pressure ratio of 2.0 = 30psi gauge or 15psi (Above atmoshpere)

we use the word pressure ratio because that's one axis of most turbo compressor maps

nuclearhappines

capt'n

i went back and searched : ) i was wrong

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...percharger+rpm

i was under the impression that our superchargers were peaking @ 12500 rpms
bearstroker says they're already peaking @ 16000 stock

if that's true ... your figures are more spot on

330cfm @ 10psi @ 14000rpms , and 200 cfm unboosted

So where can we make power

lowering boost from 10psi to 5psi we pick up about 8hp from the supercharger drive power
and lowering boost from 10psi to 5psi @14000 rpms gearing will increase s/c output from around 330cfm to around 380cfm

this requires increasing engine/head flow by 80cfm ... that's quite a jump ...

it would have to be something like minor porting + oversized valves (leaving the stock cams alone because of the complication of variable valve timing)

http://www.dynamicracing.com/custome...&cat=53&page=1

... i'm wrong : ) sorry i wrote alot when i was wrong

C-Dub

So I was up all night thinking of headers, chip, etc and all the possibilies.
Now, I may have set myself up for disappointment. I am not into drag racing, but a little more go would be nice...

dmatre, I am with you, I am really interesting in hearing from folks that have actually done on the 1.8L powerplant.

e harmon

One thing to keep in mind while trying to achieve a certain performance level (such as getting ahead of a GTI) by modding: bigger fish keep jumping into the pond, many of them with huge sleeper status. Some examples would be:

SRT4 - a $22k Dodge Neon with a serious turbo and LSD that is a monster out of the factory, and lots of aftermarket potential )

Civic Si - Looks garden variety, tested at 0-60 in 6.7 and 15.1@95 (C&D 3/2006) stock. It is a Honda, so the aftermarket support will be unsurpassed.

Cherokee SRT8 - not exactly cheap at $40k, but still a huge brick on wheels. Same C&D issue, 4.5 to 60 and 13.2@104.

Avalon - no description needed here. C&D tested 0-60 in 6.0, 14.6@99. From a dead stop, these numbers suggest a driver's race against a C43 (or C350, for that matter).

It is likely we'll be seeing more and more performance out of cars we don't expect. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from modding; it can be fun and satisfying for many reasons. But realize that if you are modding because another car is faster, enough will never be enough.

Regards,

e harmon

e1000

Good point e harmon but I think the real problem isn't a VW GTI (pretty rare) but actually, the VQ35 and Honda J series V6's. Why? Because both of these companies have managed to push 240-300(?) hp from these engines AND they put them in almost every car they make. Why do I think this is important? I think IF a C230 could be relatively easily modded to beat cars with either of these motors, people here will be satisfied, just because a LARGE number of cars are right at this performance level.

Outland

The C350 isn't some 400HP beast with 8 cylinders and gobs of torque...its a competitely performing V6, with 268HP, and decent low end grunt. Its amazing how much HP a little turbo'd engine can make. 300HP with a turbo would be easy.

The header is for a supercharged car, and frankly, its too much cash period. A turbo requires a custom exhaust manifold to route the exhaust thru the turbine. This is actually easier to build than the custom tuned header for the S/C or n/a motor.

Ive seen 1.9L Saturns with turbos that make 300HP on 93octane gas. These cars made 124HP stock. And believe me, you won't keep up with one of those in a C350. A few years back, a turbocharged Saturn Coupe entered in the OLOA race hauled down 911's on the track, and was just as fast at the dragstrip.
Folks who don't understand engines always take this stance. Its fun to tinker. Just because it came out of the factory like that, doesn't mean that's the way it has to stay. BTW, forced induction motors have huge amounts of torque...I'd venture that the supercharged four cylinders are making nearly, if not as much torque as the C350 is down low already. A turbo'd M271 would be an absolute terror a the light. This isn't some FWD Honda, with Vtech stickers...its the exact same car as the 'bad-***' RWD C350.

You might want to do some fact checking. The C350 is faster than any of the Chrysler hemi powered cars, save the SRT-8 Badged versions, which are a couple of tenths faster. Chyslers own SRT-4...A turbo'd four cylinder, I might add, is also faster. The mustang is slightly faster than a C350. The Vette is hard to beat at any price...its light, powerful, and very well engineered.

Agreed. But everyone wants more power, always, never fails. No harm in that. And a little more more power never takes away from them being safe, comfortable and good looking.

Outland

I actually love this vehicle. I used to have a Grand Cherokee with the 4.7L, and it was a stoplight terror. The AWD made it hard to beat out of the hole, and just the shock factor was such a blast. The new body, with the SRT motor sounds like a complete hoot!
I agree...the marketplace is so croweded nowdays, you HAVE to do something unexpected to stand out. I was really surprised that the C350 actually materialized. MB has a history of resting on its laurels, and the C320 was past its freshness date soooo many years ago already, I figured MB wanted people to only have performance in the AMG cars.

Sure. The other car can mod to....so even if you reach there stock level of performance, any mods on that motor put you at a disadvantage again. Nevertheless, its fun.

mig888

Soon guys, just gimme 2 more weeks .

flip

dmatre

Contrary to how it may appear, I'm not against modding an M271. I'm simply saying that for the same $$$$ as the mods, you can buy a C350 - with a warranty, that starts each morning.

In my younger days I had a '72 Celica with a 240HP 2.2Liter, limited slip, BFG CompR-1s, TRD suspension, etc. I can remember the shocked look on the faces of Camaro/Firebird/Mustang drivers as I pulled'em rather easily off the line (of course, with the gearing, it topped out at a rev-limited 125).

However, it wasn't all fun & joy. I also remember needing ether to start it on cold mornings, shutting it down at stoplights to prevent overheating, the noise & heat in the cabin, etc. etc.

If you're into modding because you like to tinker, then more power to you. If you're into modding because you want to beat some damned GTI, you're going down the wrong road (my opinion) - the correct answer there is to buy a faster car.

The simple facts are that the majority (no, not all - but a majority) of people don't have the funds/patience/mechanical aptitude to deal with high-strung cars.

Just sharing experience - not trying to talk anyone into (or out of) anything.

It's all good here!

Bing

C43AMG

.... Avalon... man you are the definition of gullible.

iceburns288

If you wanted a straight-line performer, why did you buy a C230? There are lots of cars that go much faster for much less- albeit without the Mercedes touch.

Capt Nemo o2

I was going to say "My math has to be somewhat right, the engine takes in 1.8L every other revolution. That is the definition of displacement, the amount of volume of air an engine would use in 1 full 4 stroke cycle, or in other words the sum of the volume of air in the cylinder when the piston is at dead bottom minus the combustion chambers volume for each piston." But anyways, I understand your point, and its nice to see intelligent people who know about this stuff. It's not your fault, you just started off with the wrong data. Our calculations were close when you got the right SC speed.

Anyways, while dropping the pressure will reclaim 8 lost ponies. In order to drop the pressure but keeping the SC spinning at the same speed you would need to physically change the displacement of the motor or have a wastegate to blow off excess boost. Remember, the SC puts out a certian amount of air at X RPM. While yes, the graph states otherwise, they are in the same ballpark. The difference is due to the pressure working against the SC and various other things. Also, going from 10 psi to 5 psi, you would reclaim at 8 HP, but you would probably loose more. 5 psi is half the air of 10 psi. So while you may have higher flow, the actual air concentration is half (if the flow was equal). In this case it would be slightly more than half the concentration. This translates to actually getting half of the boosted air you started with, it would just get there quicker! Having half the air is having half of the oxygen needed for the combustion process so you would need to decrease the amount of fuel to keep the equation balanced. (Having half the moles of O2 means needing half the moles of gasoline). This all equates to less power.

e harmon

For understanding that manufacturing a complex device (such as a car) results in variation, and that measured values reflect variations in production in addition to the measurement system? For understanding the significance of blocking, random run order, alpha values, reduced transfer functions and R-square values? For understanding that converting internal combustion into forward displacement of a device weighing 3000+ pounds through numerous highly inconsistent interfaces introduces a significant error term? If that is gullible, then yes I am.

Here's my statement again: The numbers suggest a driver's race with a C43. Do the numbers not suggest a driver's race with a C43?

I drive a C43, by the way. It is a lot of fun, and abundantly powerful. I also recognize that there are plenty of other cars that fit that description, many of which would not give the same street cred. Maybe some day we'll see a video of an Avalon lining up with a C43 or C350, somehow avoid the debate that the conditions were totally favorable for one car or the other, and actually have some closure. Until then, I maintain: the results of this test indicate a driver's race. Think the results are bogus? Okay.

Back on topic, the 2.0T engine in the current GTIs will see duty in many VW/Audi applications. It might not become as pervasive as the Honda's J-block or Nissan's VQ, but many of our home towns will see plenty of Jettas, GTIs, A3s, A4s, Passats, maybe even eventually Beetles, with this engine, and they will all be capable of accepting cheap, usable power for ~$600 without having to open the hood.

Regards,

e harmon

C-Dub

I bought the benz for style, safety, and performance. Just shocked a GTI would hang like that.... Yeah if I wanted to drag race all the time, I would have made a different decision... but I don't. I just want a little more go when I feel inspired to jam on the right pedal.

drho2004

i feel the same way. i got my benz because of style, confort and the way it looks. for the money i could have easily gotten a much faster car. there are many choices out there. but i dont really race, or anything of that sorts. i used to drag back in day with fixed up turbo hondas and Buick Grand nationals (what a BEAST) but i guess im over it now, but i would not mind a lilttle boost in performance out of the M271 motor know what im saying? boost controller? pulley kit? chip? maybe if prices go down, but right now, for the driving i do (work mostly) my m271 powered c230 is just fine.