MarkTown

As one who almost purchased a C230 quite a few months back (when leather was not available), and since I really don't NEED a new car, and as one who has read all the many posts about the initial & occasional roughness of the 2.3, and knowing that VW sells tons of Passats with 1.8's for 25k(if loaded), and since I owned a 1984 190 for 4 years and had essentially no problems with it (this refers to reliability of newer engines), I have no psychological aversion to purchasing a C230 with the 1.8. Also, (if accurate) it doesn't hurt that the torque curve as shown/posted a few days ago is almost flat for 80% of bandwidth.

mdp c230k

If it was called a C180K for the same price would you not think it lesser? That is why MB did not change the name, people think a lower number means less power reguardless of the truth.

raymond

How sure are we that we in fact _got_ 2.3 l engines anyway? Could it just be corporate greed and fraud, telling us that we got 2.3s? (I hear Twilight Zone theme...)

Buellwinkle

Maybe in Diamond Bar but not the San Juan or Santa Ana dealer.

Bob,

If I ever said I bought 4 MBs I'm sorry, the second one was awarded to me by the lemon law, 12 times, same problem. It was beyond them to fix it including the region office that they flew an engineer down from N.J. to solve the problem. My parents were lucky to escape with their lives when their E class burst into flames while driving on the freeway on a nice sunny San Diego day. I warned them what a POS the car was but they said that's because I had the cheap model. That was 15 years ago, I honestly thought they figured out how to build decent cars by now, an honest mistake I won't make again. The only reason the current car hasn't gone to litigation is because they've managed to fix the problem on the 3rd try both times. In CA you need 4. I hope that the same problem happens again before the 18 months are up that the lemon law allows.

Revstriker, it bugs you that my dealer treats me so nice and that's the only reason I keep the car. It's all about service, cookies, soda, car washes and courteous service, it's the least I can expect since I seem to spend soooo much time at the dealer. I would not even know if our Honda dealer is good or bad, our CR-V goes in for maintenance only and my wife brings it there otherwise I go to Jiffy Lube. It's a '97 and it never, ever went to the dealer for any warranty work but I do have to wash it myself. And that car gets huge abuse, towing, hauling, short trips, long trips. The coupe spends 25 miles on a freeway with minimal traffic a day and on average it sees more of the dealer in one month than all my cars/motorcycles combined see in a year (not counting car washes).

230

I think all are great points, but please. You guys have to understand what Buell has been through. 14 loaners in one year is enough to make any of us start to doubt MB's automotive quality. Also, Buell you definatly sound like you know what your talking about but please be aware that there are alot of first time MB buyers that visit this forum that DO NOT have problems and it is a little discouraging when all you have to say is negative. We (I especially) value your information and hope you keep posting despite you bad experiences

It's gotta be the Silver man

Boo2

Not to be a snobby kid, but who the **** chooses a car because of food or car washes. My family has had 5 S classes, one CL, and an upcoming SL next month. Never had a problem. But it's all good, some people are just out of luck in terms of reliability I guess. I haven't really had a problem with anything you said until now. You seem to be someone who keeps stepping on $h!t but keeps doing it because you like the smell. Any normal person in your situation would have switched to BMW after the second Mercedes lemon. I just don't get it.

MarkTown

I would prefer the current name and not a change to C180K. It wouldn't stop me from making the purchase, but I would pause for a bit.

trench

There you go! Mine's silver and hasn't had any problems either (4600 mi so far).

Cheers, BT

Buellwinkle

BMW = no loaner, no cookies, no free car washes + bad service. Now that wouldn't matter if I really liked the car but I'm not a fan of Bimmers. A Jag or Audi I would get.

And like a said over and over. I didn't buy the second one it was awarded and I waited over 15 years before getting the current one. I don't hold a grudge for life, you can get locked up for murder in this state and still be out in 15 years. I was looking for a reformed MB, who knew they still make cars that fall apart. It was a shot. If my MB was realiable I would have 3 of them but after my fun, my wife is afraid of them and I would never put one of my children in something that unreliable. I even thought of getting the special C-Coupe bicycle that folds in the hatch area in case I get stuck and need to get home.

greg230

uhm... you do know there are waiting lists to buy many Mercedes NOW... and they are all unreliable pieces of *****.

I guess ferraris must suck too, according to edmunds their maranello has ben nothing but problems.... if they are looking to get rid of it for cheap, i will gladly take it off their hands.

BTW... i too have a c230k, only 1 problem so far, and it had to do with comand.

raymond

Guys

Buellwinkle is entitled to his opinion. It is pointless to say things like "I have had only one problem, with Comand". Good for you. I had a list of problems as long as my arm, and hated the car so much that in order to save my sanity and possibly my life I got rid of it, taking a big hit in the process. If you had the problems I had, you would also think MBs are crap. It's hard to experience what Buellwinkle is and then say, "OK, my car is an unreliable POS, but everyone else's is OK, so MBs are great".

I think Buellwinkle has made this a personal challenge. I wonder which will arrive first - the end of the world, the third occurrance of his fault and thus a lemon law resolution to his problem, or a coronary thrombosis.

My personal challenge was to prevent myself from throttling the stupid service manager.

BTW, I love this forum. VVspy is about the only slightly active Volvo forum, and it is a yawn by comparison.

Cheers

vadim

Raymond - try these links (sorry folks, not MB related):

http://www.swedespeed.com/
http://www.swedespeed.com/resources/resources.html

Scylas

I dont find MB relibility to be worse than BMWs, I beleive its actually a lot betteer.

My family had 2 325s and a 540, now theres an ML430 and a E430 in the garage, with my c230k and a Boxter. None of the MBs nor the Porshe have ever had a problem, and we have always had the best treatmen from the MB dealerships..

BlackC230Coupe

I have to agree with that i recently got rid of my 99' Jaguar Xk8 Convertible for a 02' CLK430 but when i brought the jaguar in for service they washed the car great, it was spotless. And when i once had mercedes wash my car it looked worse than how it was dirty. I would never have them was it again.

Also in my area Lexus and jaguar give free washes and coffie and cookies to.

I would actually even feel stuipid taking them at the MB dealer.




If people talk about reliability problems with there Mercedes i guess they all have had bad luck. My family and I in my household have had 12 mercedes and never once had an serious problem the only problems we ever had were lots of broken windows on our E320's and E430 also a cupple times the windows broke on my moms old ML430 and once the fuel pump broke on that 2.

Thats all the problems we have ever had with 12 mercedes. I dont consider any of them to serious. Maybe the fuel pump but one problem out of 12 cars is not bad. And now with the 2 mercedes i have, i have never had one problem with eaither of them.

le848dave

Just a note, and I'm sure I'll get flamed on this, but here goes. We are also talking about a car in it's first year of production...granted, mine has a much better track record than Buells' 230k, but mine was also built nearly a year after his was...there are bound to be some problems when a car is in it's first production year. That always needs to be taken into consideration when buying a car. On the other hand, they have been fixing it under warranty, which is good, and they have had a good loaner program for Buell...all good things in my opinion. Also, Buell, I know you say 14 loaners in a year, but those weren't all always for major problems...I look at reliability levels changing only for major problems w/ a car. I only count reliability problems as those that deal with either safety concerns or severe mechanical problems that affect the cars ability to perform.

just my $0.02

dave

le848dave

On the C180K vs C230K question, I think it is more of a problem in the US changing the name since there is no choice of engines in the car. If they offered two versions of the car w/ different power/torque curves, then yes, it should be offered under different names. However, since there is only one engine option in this car it was a good US marketing decision to keep the car the same, otherwise it looks like they made the car for a year and abandoned it...instead they merely modified the existing car this way.

The US buyers unfortunately would look at the lower number C180K as being underpowered just because the name changed.

Well, just my opinion and $0.02

dave

revstriker

I agree with you, however the decision to call this a C230 was not a US Marketing decision. As stated earlier, MB carries 3 other models that use the 1.8, the C180, C200K and C230K. It is the C230k that is imported into the US

If they did not have these other engine choices in other countries and did decide to call it a C180, I do think it would have some effect on sales of the car, and I'm sure that a lot of people would view it as a step down from the C230 of the year before.

revstriker

Raymond, I think you are missing the point of everyone's gripe with Buellwinkle. Anyone that has problems with their car is more than welcome to post these problems and their opinions. But Buell takes every opportunity to say that MBs are unreliable, and that the engineering is poor when there is no proof that this is true. Yes, their reliability rating in surveys has slipped recently, but they still ranked well above average. He also mentions his 14 loaners implying that he's had 14 problems when this is also not true. The fact is, and you can do a search and check this yourself, Buellwinkle's posts are almost always in the negative, and he words his comments in a way that he knows to be irritating to others. Be it MB reliability, or his numerous arguments about pullies and dyno charts.

I say again, if he has had that many problems with other MBs, and believed them to be "POSs", then he must be a fool to purchase another one. And his excuse about donuts and carwashes is B.S. So his rational is "I'll take the risk of my car catching fire and possibly injuring myself or my family as long as I get some free donuts and a carwash"??

dswildfire

buell just has a dark sense of humor that nobody gets. that's all. everybody really needs needs to take a few steps back from the manuals, comparisons, and parts and just drive, and enjoy the fact that you are.

Buellwinkle

I know, why can't I enjoy my car despite it's problems. I enjoyed my Harley despite it vibrated the hell out of me, I enjoy having two kids even though they aren't perfect and need repairs occasionally. I could have the worlds most perfect Hyundai Scoupe and a smooth Honda Intercepter and a couple of perfectly behaved kids and be misserable. So let me enjoy my POS car (didn't Adam Sandler have a song titled "POS Car") and my PITA kids and my less than perfect motorcycles. AND YES, THE CAR WASHES AND COOKIES DO HELP! I knew what the risk I was taking with this car but I bought it despite that MBs are far less reliable than 9 other brands including Jaguar and I enjoy sharing my misfortunes. MB has dissapointed so many and I've seen so many people dump their cars in less than a year on the forum. If only they appreciated the car for what it is instead of holding it high on a pedestal and expect it to be something it's not.

grn300m

The C230 is just a name on a car. MB obviously has broken the mold on the name=engine liters. Right now I believe that people recognize the name C230 and can actually differentiate it from the C240 or C320 sedans. It the sedan came out with the 1.8 Kompressor and called it a C230 we all would be in deep trouble. I look at it as simply a model name. I fully expected to see 1.8 on the tail of the 2003 C230. Look at the big picture the C-coupe has always had trouble with the name. The 2.3 was the engine in all 2002's in UK. The only difference was the software/Firmware in the controller and whether or not it had a Kompressor. They were not all called C230. For the US market The C230 Kompressor in UK is also called a C230 Kompressor in the US, both with a 1.8 engine. It IS marketing. I might be different from most people, but when I buy a car I investigate it fully. I buy it for Styling, reliability, performance, quality, reputation, and my personal needs (not in order of preference). I search 1 year before buying my 2000 300M. In 1999 in won MotorTrend car of the year, I bought the second model year. There were many bugs in the 99 that were not in the 2000. Even in 2002 they made improvements including a Special version with advertised 5 more HP. Guess what, the 5 more HP and the added weight of the ground effects kit (70+ pounds), the performance numbers were equal to my 2000 and in some reports .1 second slower in the quarter mile.

I admit that when I ordered my C230 car in May, I had no idea about the engine changes, only that is was smaller. I had reservations and hit these Forums for information. I was very impressed with the knowledge base and I also appreciate info from many enthusiasts including Buellwinkle, I also like a good sense of humor. I have to admit that a couple weeks ago he was talking up the 2.3 over the 1.8. I can only assume his car problems are not related to the engine. In summary bla bla bla I think the informed public will not have any issues stepping up to the 2003 C230 with a 1.8 at the same price of a 2002 2.3. BTW, I have 4 buddies with 2002’s, they all complain about the fuel consumption, so I am looking forward to the improvement on mine. The uninformed may be confused and buy a Subi-RSX, one of the ugliest cars on the planet, albiet fast. Of course these are the same people that will complain about the resale value, but the 12 year old down the street is working to save is 8K to buy one when he reached 16.

FrankW

uh...reality check...THERE IS NO JAG dealer in Diamond Bar.

FrankW

another reality check..BMW dealers i know of--at least five or six or them in SoCal-- DO have loaner, cookies, free car washes, and great service.

but i guess that wouldn't matter to you anyway since you stick to your lemon MBs and even bother to mod'em.

FrankW

there you go, you said it, so stop telling others how you get 14 loaners in one year.

we all have heard it enough times

SilverStarC230

well ive owned 2 MB. they were both over 10 yrs old at the time. my first was an 83 300CD, bought it with 189K, and sold it with 227K miles. had this through high school and for a couple years following (bought in 92 sold in 96) and no part of the power train had ever been rebuilt or replaced. 98 bought an '87 300D with 167K and sold with 175K in 99. i have loved mercedes-benz products, reliability, saftey, engineering, design, etc. for years. foolishly (maybe not, but ive had regrets from time to time), i got a mercedes-benz tatoo when i was 18. the 3 pointed star with the laurel wreath and the mercedes-benz script. my parents owned several while i was growing up and maybe that was the beginning to my obsession with the cars. i have every MB brochure for North America since 1990 as well. my point being that i really enjoy these cars, and though they do require more attention than say a lexus, you are getting a refined peice of machinary that has well over 115 years of engineering behind it. such inovations as crumple zones, air bags, abs, and former people as porsche, diesel, benz, and daimler employed with the company. official car builder for the **** party (not that im praising it) but the factorys were 95% desctroyed and they still rebound to what they are today, even 50 years ago with the advent of the300SL and the late 1950's with the 300SC. 75 yrs ago the SSK. 24hours le mans they had 1st, 2nd, 3rd place victories. they not only have a racing heritage which most have long forgotten, but safety so much more after the 2nd world war into the 1950's. such heritage, longevity, stabilty, enginerring, and pride. the main reason daimler and benz joined together in 1926 was that the 2 oldest car companies which were going broke didnt want to go bankrupt. so instead of folding they joined together. there is a lot to be proud of when you drive behind the wheel of the 3 pointed star. not only their history but there is a future. love it or leave it i say!!!! therefore i ordered a C230 with the 1.8 regardless of engine nomenclature. they have a long past of naming other than the engine size (i.e. 190E, 450 SEL with 6.9, 300SL when it grew to the 3.2, as well as the 300 series in the mid 90's, C240 with the 2.6, etc) and I would have bought the C230 anyhow if it were named a C180. not only that, i want to get the euro badges, and replace the 230 with the 180.