dasMafia

my assessment exactly.... we shopped this arena for my wife and everything you said is true (well, the audi was not in the picture, no local dealer). we ended up in a CPO 528 touring... that thing is great! a 330 touring or CPO 328 would have been great, but they don't exist and the 2.5L tourings are just a little pokey.

the C-class is a great car overall but has some obvious and unfortunate shortcommings that really turn a lot of cross-shoppers off to it.

HOWEVER... a good C320 sport should have been at least 3rd or 4th in that group in my opinion... and they didn't even test a BMW with the sport package! wtf??? (same with the MB IIRC)

JustinTRW

This was a sport sedan comparo, not necessarily a "best car" comparo. Almost all Mercedes cars will lose in a purely sports oriented setting.

QQQ

My casual observation is that there is an inherent bias on BMW among the car critics circle. To be fair, BMW earns the laurel by revolutionizing the concept of sport sedan in their 3 series, and it is still the benchmark by which others are compared. But because of that, it is kind of HERESY for a car critic to rank BMW other than #1 or #2 in any comparo. My conspiracy theory is:

1. A car critic who ranks BMW below #2 is viewed as an idiot by his/her peers (i.e. he/she doesn't know cars).
2. Even if the critic knows in his own conscious that some cars are better than BMW, his boss (chief editor) might have overruled him because such an opinion is viewed as heresy or idiot and would not help mag sales in the long run.

Let's be clear that BMW works VERY HARD over the years to earn the repute, so no disrespect for BMW. My point is the car critic circle should not turn the repute into a myth/cult/religion and bias the conclusion. All I ask is an OPEN MIND, and CONSISTENCY in rating scheme. There are many cars which, while a lesser car than BMW, probably make up by price / value, comfort or other attributes. If a car deserves #1 or #2 after an objective, unbiased review, then no one can steal it. But forgiving one car's shortcomings while criticizing others to justify a certain conclusion and a mag's sales, then sooner or later all smart people in this and all other car forums will just disregard the whole car crtitics industry as irrelevant.

Even if all car critics are fair, end of the day, their opinion is only a reference. I believe all cars have some attributes that appeal to certain group of customers (otherwise, it would be out of production long ago), and everyone buys his/her car for a reason. I don't care if my car is #1 or #100 in a review. What is important is you make a conscious choice and are happy with your decision.

MB-BOB

Your observations are very astute, QQQ. To add, I believe the pro BMW bias runs even deeper...

Ever since Heir Daimler was given credit for inventing the automobile, Daimler-Benz has always been regarded as one of the old-guard brands in Europe. The inference is that Mercedes-Benz is traditional, set in their ways, out of touch, etc. Through the years, they've also acquired the now fabled, elitist, even snobbish, reputation (at least here in the US).

By comparison, BMW is perceived as a new-er company, with its heritage more steeply rooted in avante-garde motorcycles, rather than cars. I say this, because at the end of WWII, the surviving Daimler-Benz manufacturing infrastructure was sufficient to allow it to more readily return to making cars. BMW's facilities, on the other hand, were almost utterly destroyed in the war. So, to rebuild, BMW's chose as its initial focus, to revive it's motorcycle business, first.

Hence, BMW's post-war reputation as a "Phoenix from the Ashes," upstart rebel and underdog, fighting against the establishment to survive.

Having worked in/with the media most of my professional life, I can tell you that the majority are liberal arts types. They like alternative everything, from hairstyles, to music, to diets, in short, just about anything out of the mainstream. This is not a bad thing at all, I have a liberal arts degree, too. But you must recognize it to understand why media types gravitate to counter-culture Icons, like BMW.

IMO, BMW could make Yugos and there would be significant cult following among the U.S. media. They just love seeing the underdog succeed, while at the same time view MB as your snobbish daddy's Oldsmobile.

tommy

Or it could just be a better sports sedan.

MB-BOB

I'm not suggesting that my C320 is a better "sports" sedan than the 330i. It isn't, because it's not a "sports" sedan, any more than the Acura CL is a "sedan."

My point is that if MB could afford to drop the price of the C32 AMG to $40K, the 330i would still "win" in these comparos. I'm telling ya, IMO these rag editors are blind...

TimmyC230boy

How about the advertising budget in the mags. From the last 2 issues of motor trend and C&D
BMW ads: 7
Benz: 2

That explains alot.

dxp

As someone who owns both BMWs and MBs, I'd like
to offer the following observations:

1. Both companies make great cars which until
today still can't be copied by the other
manufacturers in the way they "feel" on the
road. Just recently before we bought the C320
wagon, I test drove the new Infiniti G35. A
great car by all measures, but the feedback you
get is nowhere near a BMW or MB.

2. BMWs are engineered toward giving the
driver a more direct feedback from the road,
chassis, etc. and tend to have a bit higher
handling envelope than comparable MBs. Although,
I also think MB has improved a lot in this
area with their cars in the last 5-6 years.

3. The E46 3 series is a car for the younger
crowd from a styling perspective while the C
class styling feels more suitable for an old
dog like me (in the 30's). The E39 5 series is
very generic in styling (maybe it's just getting
too outdated). Of course, this is all very
subjective opinions.

4. Based on my ownership experience of 2 older
MBs, they feel just as solid as when they were
new (of course, they have also been properly
maintained).

5. I would be extremely surprised if people use
more than %40 of the handling capabilities of
their car for more than %5 of the time on
public road. For BMWs and MBs at least, it is really a moot point to compare handling of one
versus the other. If you want to change the
springs/shocks for the looks, it's one thing,
but if you claim that it'll make you go faster,
I think you're deceiving yourself. Most drivers
are incapable of using anywhere near the handling
capabilities of these cars (in stock form). Now,
it's a different story if you compete in auto-x
or on the track.

Just my 2 cents...

dxp

viper

Are you sure about those numbers ? If they are correct I would say it would be extremely difficult for these magazines to be completely objective.

TimmyC230boy

yeah i have the mags in front of me right now

Kal Rubinson

I do not know how things work at MT and C&D but your conclusion is not necessarily warranted without other evidence.

I review high end audio equipment and pay no attention to ad placement. In fact, I rarely read my own mag from cover to cover and, generally, I ignore the ads completely. The result is that they can have absolutely no influence on what I say and publish. That, of course, does not stop presumptions like yours from being made.

MBZman

I've had the pleasure of extensively driving (7 days +) both the BMW 330 and MB 320. Basically, these cars are so different there is really no point in comparing them.

The Benz is comfy, quiet, smooth, elegent, and rock solid. The BMW has harder seats, more plastic and is loud albeit more powerful and to die for steering. When driving the BMW I felt like a shark ready to strike, it begs you to drive aggresive and push it to the limit.

There's no point in comparing them because they cater to two different driving styles. I'm not saying one is better than the other, my mood at the moment would dictate which I would rather be driving. For a true SPORTS SEDAN the BMW is the clear winner, no question. For a LUXURY SPORTS SEDAN. emphasis on LUXURY, my nod goes to BENZ.

MB-BOB

I understand your point, Kal. However, IMO, what appears in a magazine, and when, has less to do with a contributing writer's integrity and more to do with editorial decision, invariably, but INDIRECTLY, tied to commercial considerations.

For example, there is only so much editorial space available in a monthly car magazine, and only 12 slots (issues) in which to place that editorial. Naturally, a manufacturer wants publicity for his "new and improved 2003 XXXXXX" at the time of its model launch. Unfortunately, most of the new model year launches occur within a 2-month time window in any given year, further placing a premium on editorial space for those peak issues.

From the Manufacturer's side...

I've worked in marketing departments of several different companies across a variety of consumer products, and I can tell you from experience, that the company's "publicity" people work hand-in-hand with the company's "advertising" department to leverage editorial placements tied to, or as a result from paid-advertising placements.

From the Magazine's side...

So now each Magazine has DOZENS of car manufacturers jockeying for publicity--all at the same time-- the magazine editors are faced with the prospect of turning down nearly 80% of the manufacturers who beat down their doors for "Featured model/test drive reviews."

One way to minimize pissing-off everyone is to run "multi-car theme comparo" stories so you can accommodate more players, but then the issue becomes which cars do you invite to your 6-car feature, and which (among the 20) cars do you turn away? And why?

IMO, paramount in all these decisions is a high-level meeting between the op/ed staff and the commercial department, to "compare notes." Just as in the meetings between a manufacturer's publicity and ad dept, this meeting cuts to the chase, "OK, who's paying the light bill here and what car models are they pushing this year?" Not that an formal agreement is reached that says in concrete, "you get X favorable reviews per X adverts," but the informal implications are clearly derived by smart people, and the editorial staff sifts through submitted stories with this in the back of their minds. My educated opinion is that those who don't advertise as often tend to get left out.

Specialist magazines that cover a small industry with 6-10 manufacturers can easily spread editorial "opportunities" among all the players so that everyone gets a fair chance, advertising aside. But, last I read, there are more than 350 different car models offered in the US. You can't cover them all fairly.

FrankW

what does number of ads have to do with the out come of their test? If that's true Nissan should be the best car company out there because their number of ads far exceed anyother car company.

No offense, but whoever thought ads have to do with the out come of the testing, must be very easy to be influenced.

Kal Rubinson

Of course but what you are describing is product selection for review and not the content or tenor of that review. Such decisions are an essential element in any commercial magazine's viability.

And, in response to your last paragraph, 350 models is probably an order of magnitude less than the number we face in audio.

mctwin2kman

C/D has admitted they like all BMW's so therefore the other cars must do a lot better than there BMW foes.

viper

The other thing to keep in mind is writer perks. It was on one of those newsmagazines shows a few months back. Apparerently some of the brands pay for lavish junkets to France and other places where the congnoscenti can drive the new models. I think it would be difficult to truly expose any warts for a product whose manufacturer has assaulted you with wine, women and song in some foreign location. Journalistic integrity you say ? Yeah right anyone can and is bought. It does not matter if we are talking automobiles or submarines. The unfortunate sap who writes some nasty blurb about a new car will likely find himself not invited to the next boondoggle. If he has some integrity he may just write about the positive attributes only. This leaves readers to read-between-the-lines if you will since we all know that an unbiased report contains pluses and minuses.

Kal Rubinson

You always have to read between the lines.

TimmyC230boy

Advertisers, I would assume, make up a large % of the operating budget and payroll of such publications. If company X paid $1,000,000 a year in advertising costs, and Company Y only paid $100,000. Who would you least want to **** off? Have you ever heard the saying, don't bite the hand that feeds you? I'm not saying that Mercedes, BMW, Nissan etc are "buying" good reviews in car mags. But we have all learned in the last few months (Enron, MCI Worldcom) that for the right price $$$$$ people will do anything and say anything you tell them to.

grn300m

A few months ago MotorTrend ran a comparison between the Mercedes C230 Sportscoupe and the Hyundai XG350, both were 2002 models. The point of the article was which of the companies would carry their nameplate furthest in their new market places. MB moving down in the mid $20k, and Hyundai moving up in the mid $20 price range. I understood the purpose of the article, however I would much rather see it as a single page editorial and a real comparison between the C230, Acura RSX, and Toyota Celica. That article combined with many other articles of late seems like they were written to entertain the magazine writers rather than their customers. In 1999 the Chrysler 300M was MTCOTY, yet it has never been placed in any comparisons since. To me the MTCOTY should be held high and added to most 'logical' comparisons. Most of the other car mags seem to be the same way.

FrankW

each car manufacturer ad is only a small portion of the money that pays the magazine (they do add up). The real money i would think came from those who put ads in last few pages of the magazine regularily. TireRack for one.

If you ever watch the MotorTrend TV episode when they test the E55 and the M5 (ML55 vs X5 4.6is), you'll see that they are not bias. Everything is shown on the paper and M5 and X5 come out on top. Few of the editor did pick the E55.

Jim Banville

If the AARP mag did a comparo of the C320 vs. 330i guess which would win? <snicker>

Everyone else who has said the two cars are aimed at different drivers are 100% correct. The 330i is the "higher" performance car. The C320 is the "higher" luxury car. The guy's in these car mag's will pick the higher perfomance car every time because that is what they care about!

MB-BOB

Please re-read viper's observations from page one...

IMO, and based on years of experience in the media, this article was written by committee... At least one person (maybe more) wrote the editorial copy, certainly one or more edited it. At least one person (or more) compiled the charts. No one double checked to see that the two inputs were different. And the editors let it pass without scrutiny. Or, the editors didn't like what the initial charts (matching the copy) said, so they fudged the charts to make sure the numbers came out to their satisfaction... But ooops, the copy is back from typesetting and it doesn't match the charts anymore. Well, it's OK. The BMW came out on top anyway, which is what everyone expected. So, no one will notice.... D'oh!

Kal Rubinson writes about a reviewer who takes responsibility (and is delegated authority) for an entire story... he writes it, edits himself, checks his work, and shepards the story through the publication process to ensure that no one chops-up what he intended to say.

I highly respect that. I, too, have worked in some media situations where what I wrote is what got printed, word for word. But I've also worked places where so many hands (and opinions) touched my copy that the first draft and the end product looked nothing alike.

My point is that anytime you have multiple (differing) inputs to a story, someone up top finally has to resolve the differences. Enter the personal opinoins, biases, subliminal recollection of that meeting two weeks ago with the advertising department, or that FINE, all expenses paid junket to Aruba to test drive this or that car, sponsored by XXXXXXXX, etc.

Magazine writer are just like you... They're humans. They believe what the believe based on the inputs and feedbacks they receive, and the cumulative effect of such baggage over time. That's why most of these reviews (supportive of your views, or not) are usually not worth the paper they're printed on.

bagwell

OH MY GOD>>>...why do yo think CONSUMERS REPORTS does not accept any outside advertising ????

come on man...wake up...its all about the $ !!

MR325iT

Ya know, there's only one person who can objectively and decisively tell me which car I most want to own: Me.

I subscribe to C&D and I enjoy their editorial style, but I'd never rule out a car based solely on a bad C&D review. In short - their opinion is informative, but it ain't necessarily my opinion, which is why I get to go do test drives and other fun stuff to determine which car I really want/need. Their criteria may differ from yours, so if you got the 320, it works for you, and that's all that matters.