Johnand's Oil analysis thread
 

I will be doing oil analysis on my car for a while and wanted to create a thread to post all the results and discuss them.

Here is the 1st results: (Click on the pic for the original high resolution version)

http://e85benz.com/gallery/d/337-2/oil1.jpg

This is the factory fill of Mobil 1 0W-40. The oil and car had 5800 miles on this sample. I did change the oil, and I am glad I did for a few reasons. 1st, Iron, copper, and silicon are pretty high. Iron is from engine breakin, copper from I am thinking oil cooler, and silicon for gaskets. Those are all normally high during breakin. 2nd, viscosity is low, the oil has thinned to a 30W oil. Not sure why. Only thing I can think of is because I have been running E85.

The good news is the TBN is still pretty high, which means the oil still has lots of the additive pack left. I suspect that once the engine is broken in the oil may in fact make the 13K change interval that MB recommends. But, if I can't find out why the oil is thinning, then I can't risk leaving the oil in there that long.

Update:

I got some new information. I was told by me dealer that ALL MB were factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40 oil. That is not the case. All AMG MB cars are factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40. Everything else is filled with a 229.5 MB specified 5W-30 synthetic made by Shell. So, that is why my figures didn't jive with the results of virgin analysis's I've seen on the M1 0W-40.

So, the viscosity is OK, as it is in spec for a 30W. Since I changed my oil at that sample time with M1 0W-40, the next test should be correct. I will sample again at ~12K miles on the car (~6K on the oil), which should be in about a month or 2 with how much driving I do.

How much does this test cost?

Really enjoy reading your posts.

E

It is $20 postage paid for the kit.

Updated 1st post with new information.

Do you think this test could be used to alert an owner to excess break down of the Cylinder rings?

I have 140k miles on my M111 engine, and often wonder of its condition. While the car pulls well, I worry about major issues like cylinder rings and bore wear.

If I had a head issue, I feel like that si something that could be dealt with.

E

This is very interesting. I just bought some oil from the dealer and it is 5W-40 ESP Formula M. They said they switched about 4 months ago from the 0W-40 and this is what Mercedes recommends.

It does say MB 229.51 on the back of the bottle.

Here is what they gave me. BTW: It was $5.50 a quart.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/143/10004/179320.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/143/10004/179321.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/143/10004/179322.jpg

Absolutely oil analysis can and IS used to give you data to alert you of many different conditions. In fact, that is what oil analysis was designed to do. It can save lots of downtime and money alerting to problems early, and allowing for scheduled maintenance to be performed.

I am using it to see exactly how long I should go between oil changes and monitor the engine since I am running E85, as there is not a lot of data doing so.

Why do you think these are high? I use Blackstone labs and their analysis comes back with what the normal levels are for a certain mileage on the oil so you have a point of reference. Remember, this is in Part Per Million (PPM) so 100 ppm is like 100/1000000 or .01 of 1%....not much.

That oil was designed specifically for the new MB Bluetec diesels. I suspect that your dealer is using it in place of the 0W-40, just for reducing oil inventory, as it works with the gasoline engines spec'd for 229.5 oil as well.

I have seen the universal averages for this motor on Bob is the Oilguy Forum and those are high. I'll see if I can dig up the post, but iron for that mileage was ~20-30ppm. Generally rule of thumb in the lubrication community is anything over 100ppm for iron is unacceptable. It was on it's way there.

Yes, I dumped the oil too early, but don't mind being cautious until the wear metal stabilize.

Hmmmm. I was told that they switched and are now using this on all oil changes and are now factory filling the cars with this. :nix:

I usually order my oil online but I was at the dealer so I thought I would buy it there because it was only $5.50 a quart.

So am I OK using this? Or should I bring it back?

I've read in a few places from people who have done oil analysis' on M1 0w-40 and have found it thins to a 30w pretty quickly. So its not just your engine but pretty much across the board.

Damn, only $5.50/quart at the dealer, that is pretty reasonable.

Yes, you can use that oil, it is just fine. Any 229.5 and 229.51 can be used in your car. The 229.51 spec just has some additives designed for the diesel engine. Though, as you can see on the bottle it can be used in gas and diesel engines. Like I said before, I suspect your dealer just carries that oil for the diesels, and instead of carrying both oils, they just carry that one since it works for both gas and diesel.

Yes, the M1 0W-40 is already in the thinner side of the 40W spec to begin with, and it tends to shear easily, so it thins out.

If you read my update in my 1st post, the factory fill is a 5W-30 (Not M1 0W-40), so it is in range.

Yea, I should have looked at my analysis for reference....it says universal avgs. after 10K miles = 21 for iron, 8 for copper, and 9 for silicon. I think you're right about it being breakin numbers though. After 100k miles all my numbers were below averages and with good oil properties after going 13K between changes so the FSS seems to be giving good oil change intervals.

Thanks johnand.

awesome thread !!

Please keep up the constructive dialogue ! :y

I have a little different take on the high silicon reading. It's only an opinion, not fact concerning what is occuring in your engine. Sillica and carbon make Carborundum which is almost as hard as diamond. This compound is used in the engine honing process, and if by accident there were some residual, our silicon reading might be from that. I rather doubt that because the engine assembly area is cleaner than the dishes in most kitchens.

Normally I'd like to see 5 ppm for a four banger, and 10 ppm for a six. Those readings are seldom seen except with mineral oil. Part of the additive package in Mobil 1 is an antifoam agent that is polymerized silicon (silicon and oxygen) called silicone (Link: Pamela Anderson.) The additive will probably contribute an additional 10 ppm to the oil. The sheet 229.51 oils (mostly for diesel, but also for gas engines as pointed out earlier) have additional silicone to help its low ash performance. Count about 5 ppm here.

The greatest contributor of silicon in my experience is JPD (just plain dirt). Dirt can enter the intake by bypassing the filter, due to a poor fit of the gasket. Run your finger over the surfaces "downwind" from the air filter and see if you can feel any grit.

A quick and dirty (pun intended) test for dirt is to take a couple of microscope slides and put a drop of oil between them and rub them together. Then view them with the microscope and look for scratches in the glass.

Now, if the wear metals are low and the silicon is high, the dirt is not large enough to cause "3 body wear." The oil film is doing its job.

Finally the elevated copper escapes explaination from my feeble gray matter. I was thinking it might be from the corrosion caused by the alcohol in E85, but that is just a guess.

Neat research.


I have to ask, what inspired the test?

I did look at your report for reference, but realized it didn't mean much, as it is from a much different engine.

I am pretty sure the high metals are from breakin, so I am not too worried about it at this point. Just want to collect as much data as possible to find my optimum change interval. Plus I really want to pay attention to what is going on in my engine since I am running E85.

No problem, glad I could help :y

Thanks for the compliment. I was really excited to get this report to share it here and discuss it. It is nice to have some more technical discussions on the board sometimes :naughty:

Moviela, thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts on this. I really value your expertise.

I just learned something new today from that! Interesting, to know another source for silicon. Though, I suspect you are right, and that the engine is spotlessly clean before assembly, so that probably isn't the culprit. Though, I have also read that assembly lube can contribute to high silicon numbers on a factory fill.

Agreed. Silicon is present in quite a few oils additive packages. Since this is not M1, I have no way to tell exactly how much is from the additives. I do have a virgin sample of M1 0W-40 and it contains 6ppm of Silicon. Since the next test will be on this oil, that will help sort out the numbers.

Exactly. I have seen numerous data of elevated silicon numbers when someone has "serviced" the air intake system. If the person servicing the intake doesn't pay very close attention to making sure that the filters, hoses, and housing are not seated AND sealed correctly, dirt will find it's way into the intake. I am hesitant on even touching the intake system, as I "assume" the factory best knows how to assemble and check that the system is sealed tight. But, we all know that is not always the case. So, I have it on my list to take a look at.

I suspect the E85 as a possibility as well, though everything I have read says copper is normally high during breakin from bearings, valve guide, oil coolers, etc. I keep very detailed fueling data, as can be seen in my Ethanol thread, so I will use that as a tool to see if the E85 is in fact the cause of copper.

Well, to put it plainly, I am a geek. This kind of technical stuff really intrigues me. :D

:word: Excellent.
I very much enjoy reading (and learning from) your posts. Please keep 'em coming! :y

Here is the 2nd report:

http://e85benz.com/images/analysis2.jpg

This is Mobil 1 0W-40, MB filter, 7326 miles on the oil, and 13125 miles on the car. As with the last report the majority of the fuel is E85.

The second line is the report from the factory fill.

Appears the engine is still breaking in. Iron still a little high. Silicon is still a little high for my liking. I really need to look at the air intake. Glad I changed it with metals still a little high.

The big news is TBN looks good for the mileage. Virgin TBN is 12.5. Once the engine is broken in, it does look like the oil will indeed make the 13K interval recommend by MB (I be damned :D ).

I just got my service B done last week, and they changed my 0w-40 to 5w-40 ESP, and the car feels a bit...weird... doesnt feel as "responsive"

Hi John,

Second test looking good. The silicon has fallen by about half. If you figure 10ppm for a 6 cylinder engine and 10ppm for the additives in Mobil 1 0W-40, looks like you are very close to the pin. (golf reference)

The Mg is also way down, indicating the bearings have been "well polished in place." This is good news.

Great thread. So now you can "let it ride" for a year or 13,000 miles!

Yes, I am very happy with the results for the second test. I was doing some more research, and you are right, that my silicon is right where it should be. I was also glad to see the copper drop by more than half as well. The oil did shear and thin to a 30W (Just barely under a 40W). But, as said earlier that is normal for Mobil 1 0W-40. But, since MB has some 5W-30 oils on the recommended list, I don't think it really matters much. Plus, it will keep the fuel mileage up.