Johnand's Oil analysis thread
#1
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Johnand's Oil analysis thread
I will be doing oil analysis on my car for a while and wanted to create a thread to post all the results and discuss them.
Here is the 1st results: (Click on the pic for the original high resolution version)
This is the factory fill of Mobil 1 0W-40. The oil and car had 5800 miles on this sample. I did change the oil, and I am glad I did for a few reasons. 1st, Iron, copper, and silicon are pretty high. Iron is from engine breakin, copper from I am thinking oil cooler, and silicon for gaskets. Those are all normally high during breakin. 2nd, viscosity is low, the oil has thinned to a 30W oil. Not sure why. Only thing I can think of is because I have been running E85.
The good news is the TBN is still pretty high, which means the oil still has lots of the additive pack left. I suspect that once the engine is broken in the oil may in fact make the 13K change interval that MB recommends. But, if I can't find out why the oil is thinning, then I can't risk leaving the oil in there that long.
Update:
I got some new information. I was told by me dealer that ALL MB were factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40 oil. That is not the case. All AMG MB cars are factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40. Everything else is filled with a 229.5 MB specified 5W-30 synthetic made by Shell. So, that is why my figures didn't jive with the results of virgin analysis's I've seen on the M1 0W-40.
So, the viscosity is OK, as it is in spec for a 30W. Since I changed my oil at that sample time with M1 0W-40, the next test should be correct. I will sample again at ~12K miles on the car (~6K on the oil), which should be in about a month or 2 with how much driving I do.
Here is the 1st results: (Click on the pic for the original high resolution version)
This is the factory fill of Mobil 1 0W-40. The oil and car had 5800 miles on this sample. I did change the oil, and I am glad I did for a few reasons. 1st, Iron, copper, and silicon are pretty high. Iron is from engine breakin, copper from I am thinking oil cooler, and silicon for gaskets. Those are all normally high during breakin. 2nd, viscosity is low, the oil has thinned to a 30W oil. Not sure why. Only thing I can think of is because I have been running E85.
The good news is the TBN is still pretty high, which means the oil still has lots of the additive pack left. I suspect that once the engine is broken in the oil may in fact make the 13K change interval that MB recommends. But, if I can't find out why the oil is thinning, then I can't risk leaving the oil in there that long.
Update:
I got some new information. I was told by me dealer that ALL MB were factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40 oil. That is not the case. All AMG MB cars are factory filled with Mobil 1 0W-40. Everything else is filled with a 229.5 MB specified 5W-30 synthetic made by Shell. So, that is why my figures didn't jive with the results of virgin analysis's I've seen on the M1 0W-40.
So, the viscosity is OK, as it is in spec for a 30W. Since I changed my oil at that sample time with M1 0W-40, the next test should be correct. I will sample again at ~12K miles on the car (~6K on the oil), which should be in about a month or 2 with how much driving I do.
Last edited by johnand; 07-02-2007 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Updated information on factory fill oil.
#5
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2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
Do you think this test could be used to alert an owner to excess break down of the Cylinder rings?
I have 140k miles on my M111 engine, and often wonder of its condition. While the car pulls well, I worry about major issues like cylinder rings and bore wear.
If I had a head issue, I feel like that si something that could be dealt with.
E
I have 140k miles on my M111 engine, and often wonder of its condition. While the car pulls well, I worry about major issues like cylinder rings and bore wear.
If I had a head issue, I feel like that si something that could be dealt with.
E
#6
This is very interesting. I just bought some oil from the dealer and it is 5W-40 ESP Formula M. They said they switched about 4 months ago from the 0W-40 and this is what Mercedes recommends.
It does say MB 229.51 on the back of the bottle.
Here is what they gave me. BTW: It was $5.50 a quart.
It does say MB 229.51 on the back of the bottle.
Here is what they gave me. BTW: It was $5.50 a quart.
#7
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Do you think this test could be used to alert an owner to excess break down of the Cylinder rings?
I have 140k miles on my M111 engine, and often wonder of its condition. While the car pulls well, I worry about major issues like cylinder rings and bore wear.
If I had a head issue, I feel like that si something that could be dealt with.
E
I have 140k miles on my M111 engine, and often wonder of its condition. While the car pulls well, I worry about major issues like cylinder rings and bore wear.
If I had a head issue, I feel like that si something that could be dealt with.
E
I am using it to see exactly how long I should go between oil changes and monitor the engine since I am running E85, as there is not a lot of data doing so.
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#8
Why do you think these are high? I use Blackstone labs and their analysis comes back with what the normal levels are for a certain mileage on the oil so you have a point of reference. Remember, this is in Part Per Million (PPM) so 100 ppm is like 100/1000000 or .01 of 1%....not much.
#9
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
This is very interesting. I just bought some oil from the dealer and it is 5W-40 ESP Formula M. They said they switched about 4 months ago from the 0W-40 and this is what Mercedes recommends.
It does say MB 229.51 on the back of the bottle.
Here is what they gave me. BTW: It was $5.50 a quart.
It does say MB 229.51 on the back of the bottle.
Here is what they gave me. BTW: It was $5.50 a quart.
Last edited by johnand; 07-02-2007 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Removed images
#10
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Why do you think these are high? I use Blackstone labs and their analysis comes back with what the normal levels are for a certain mileage on the oil so you have a point of reference. Remember, this is in Part Per Million (PPM) so 100 ppm is like 100/1000000 or .01 of 1%....not much.
Yes, I dumped the oil too early, but don't mind being cautious until the wear metal stabilize.
#11
I usually order my oil online but I was at the dealer so I thought I would buy it there because it was only $5.50 a quart.
So am I OK using this? Or should I bring it back?
#12
I've read in a few places from people who have done oil analysis' on M1 0w-40 and have found it thins to a 30w pretty quickly. So its not just your engine but pretty much across the board.
#13
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Hmmmm. I was told that they switched and are now using this on all oil changes and are now factory filling the cars with this.
I usually order my oil online but I was at the dealer so I thought I would buy it there because it was only $5.50 a quart.
So am I OK using this? Or should I bring it back?
I usually order my oil online but I was at the dealer so I thought I would buy it there because it was only $5.50 a quart.
So am I OK using this? Or should I bring it back?
Yes, you can use that oil, it is just fine. Any 229.5 and 229.51 can be used in your car. The 229.51 spec just has some additives designed for the diesel engine. Though, as you can see on the bottle it can be used in gas and diesel engines. Like I said before, I suspect your dealer just carries that oil for the diesels, and instead of carrying both oils, they just carry that one since it works for both gas and diesel.
#14
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
If you read my update in my 1st post, the factory fill is a 5W-30 (Not M1 0W-40), so it is in range.
#15
Yea, I should have looked at my analysis for reference....it says universal avgs. after 10K miles = 21 for iron, 8 for copper, and 9 for silicon. I think you're right about it being breakin numbers though. After 100k miles all my numbers were below averages and with good oil properties after going 13K between changes so the FSS seems to be giving good oil change intervals.
#16
Damn, only $5.50/quart at the dealer, that is pretty reasonable.
Yes, you can use that oil, it is just fine. Any 229.5 and 229.51 can be used in your car. The 229.51 spec just has some additives designed for the diesel engine. Though, as you can see on the bottle it can be used in gas and diesel engines. Like I said before, I suspect your dealer just carries that oil for the diesels, and instead of carrying both oils, they just carry that one since it works for both gas and diesel.
Yes, you can use that oil, it is just fine. Any 229.5 and 229.51 can be used in your car. The 229.51 spec just has some additives designed for the diesel engine. Though, as you can see on the bottle it can be used in gas and diesel engines. Like I said before, I suspect your dealer just carries that oil for the diesels, and instead of carrying both oils, they just carry that one since it works for both gas and diesel.
#17
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awesome thread !!
Please keep up the constructive dialogue !
Please keep up the constructive dialogue !
#18
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I have a little different take on the high silicon reading. It's only an opinion, not fact concerning what is occuring in your engine. Sillica and carbon make Carborundum which is almost as hard as diamond. This compound is used in the engine honing process, and if by accident there were some residual, our silicon reading might be from that. I rather doubt that because the engine assembly area is cleaner than the dishes in most kitchens.
Normally I'd like to see 5 ppm for a four banger, and 10 ppm for a six. Those readings are seldom seen except with mineral oil. Part of the additive package in Mobil 1 is an antifoam agent that is polymerized silicon (silicon and oxygen) called silicone (Link: Pamela Anderson.) The additive will probably contribute an additional 10 ppm to the oil. The sheet 229.51 oils (mostly for diesel, but also for gas engines as pointed out earlier) have additional silicone to help its low ash performance. Count about 5 ppm here.
The greatest contributor of silicon in my experience is JPD (just plain dirt). Dirt can enter the intake by bypassing the filter, due to a poor fit of the gasket. Run your finger over the surfaces "downwind" from the air filter and see if you can feel any grit.
A quick and dirty (pun intended) test for dirt is to take a couple of microscope slides and put a drop of oil between them and rub them together. Then view them with the microscope and look for scratches in the glass.
Now, if the wear metals are low and the silicon is high, the dirt is not large enough to cause "3 body wear." The oil film is doing its job.
Finally the elevated copper escapes explaination from my feeble gray matter. I was thinking it might be from the corrosion caused by the alcohol in E85, but that is just a guess.
Normally I'd like to see 5 ppm for a four banger, and 10 ppm for a six. Those readings are seldom seen except with mineral oil. Part of the additive package in Mobil 1 is an antifoam agent that is polymerized silicon (silicon and oxygen) called silicone (Link: Pamela Anderson.) The additive will probably contribute an additional 10 ppm to the oil. The sheet 229.51 oils (mostly for diesel, but also for gas engines as pointed out earlier) have additional silicone to help its low ash performance. Count about 5 ppm here.
The greatest contributor of silicon in my experience is JPD (just plain dirt). Dirt can enter the intake by bypassing the filter, due to a poor fit of the gasket. Run your finger over the surfaces "downwind" from the air filter and see if you can feel any grit.
A quick and dirty (pun intended) test for dirt is to take a couple of microscope slides and put a drop of oil between them and rub them together. Then view them with the microscope and look for scratches in the glass.
Now, if the wear metals are low and the silicon is high, the dirt is not large enough to cause "3 body wear." The oil film is doing its job.
Finally the elevated copper escapes explaination from my feeble gray matter. I was thinking it might be from the corrosion caused by the alcohol in E85, but that is just a guess.
Last edited by Moviela; 07-03-2007 at 12:08 AM.
#20
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From: Camas, WA
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Yea, I should have looked at my analysis for reference....it says universal avgs. after 10K miles = 21 for iron, 8 for copper, and 9 for silicon. I think you're right about it being breakin numbers though. After 100k miles all my numbers were below averages and with good oil properties after going 13K between changes so the FSS seems to be giving good oil change intervals.
I am pretty sure the high metals are from breakin, so I am not too worried about it at this point. Just want to collect as much data as possible to find my optimum change interval. Plus I really want to pay attention to what is going on in my engine since I am running E85.
No problem, glad I could help
Thanks for the compliment. I was really excited to get this report to share it here and discuss it. It is nice to have some more technical discussions on the board sometimes
I have a little different take on the high silicon reading. It's only an opinion, not fact concerning what is occuring in your engine. Sillica and carbon make Carborundum which is almost as hard as diamond. This compound is used in the engine honing process, and if by accident there were some residual, our silicon reading might be from that. I rather doubt that because the engine assembly area is cleaner than the dishes in most kitchens.
I just learned something new today from that! Interesting, to know another source for silicon. Though, I suspect you are right, and that the engine is spotlessly clean before assembly, so that probably isn't the culprit. Though, I have also read that assembly lube can contribute to high silicon numbers on a factory fill.
Normally I'd like to see 5 ppm for a four banger, and 10 ppm for a six. Those readings are seldom seen except with mineral oil. Part of the additive package in Mobil 1 is an antifoam agent that is polymerized silicon (silicon and oxygen) called silicone (Link: Pamela Anderson.) The additive will probably contribute an additional 10 ppm to the oil. The sheet 229.51 oils (mostly for diesel, but also for gas engines as pointed out earlier) have additional silicone to help its low ash performance. Count about 5 ppm here.
The greatest contributor of silicon in my experience is JPD (just plain dirt). Dirt can enter the intake by bypassing the filter, due to a poor fit of the gasket. Run your finger over the surfaces "downwind" from the air filter and see if you can feel any grit.
A quick and dirty (pun intended) test for dirt is to take a couple of microscope slides and put a drop of oil between them and rub them together. Then view them with the microscope and look for scratches in the glass.
Now, if the wear metals are low and the silicon is high, the dirt is not large enough to cause "3 body wear." The oil film is doing its job.
A quick and dirty (pun intended) test for dirt is to take a couple of microscope slides and put a drop of oil between them and rub them together. Then view them with the microscope and look for scratches in the glass.
Now, if the wear metals are low and the silicon is high, the dirt is not large enough to cause "3 body wear." The oil film is doing its job.
Well, to put it plainly, I am a geek. This kind of technical stuff really intrigues me.
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#22
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Here is the 2nd report:
This is Mobil 1 0W-40, MB filter, 7326 miles on the oil, and 13125 miles on the car. As with the last report the majority of the fuel is E85.
The second line is the report from the factory fill.
Appears the engine is still breaking in. Iron still a little high. Silicon is still a little high for my liking. I really need to look at the air intake. Glad I changed it with metals still a little high.
The big news is TBN looks good for the mileage. Virgin TBN is 12.5. Once the engine is broken in, it does look like the oil will indeed make the 13K interval recommend by MB (I be damned ).
This is Mobil 1 0W-40, MB filter, 7326 miles on the oil, and 13125 miles on the car. As with the last report the majority of the fuel is E85.
The second line is the report from the factory fill.
Appears the engine is still breaking in. Iron still a little high. Silicon is still a little high for my liking. I really need to look at the air intake. Glad I changed it with metals still a little high.
The big news is TBN looks good for the mileage. Virgin TBN is 12.5. Once the engine is broken in, it does look like the oil will indeed make the 13K interval recommend by MB (I be damned ).
Last edited by johnand; 10-04-2007 at 09:45 PM.
#24
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2005 C Wagon (No snickering please!)
Hi John,
Second test looking good. The silicon has fallen by about half. If you figure 10ppm for a 6 cylinder engine and 10ppm for the additives in Mobil 1 0W-40, looks like you are very close to the pin. (golf reference)
The Mg is also way down, indicating the bearings have been "well polished in place." This is good news.
Great thread. So now you can "let it ride" for a year or 13,000 miles!
Second test looking good. The silicon has fallen by about half. If you figure 10ppm for a 6 cylinder engine and 10ppm for the additives in Mobil 1 0W-40, looks like you are very close to the pin. (golf reference)
The Mg is also way down, indicating the bearings have been "well polished in place." This is good news.
Great thread. So now you can "let it ride" for a year or 13,000 miles!
#25
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Hi John,
Second test looking good. The silicon has fallen by about half. If you figure 10ppm for a 6 cylinder engine and 10ppm for the additives in Mobil 1 0W-40, looks like you are very close to the pin. (golf reference)
The Mg is also way down, indicating the bearings have been "well polished in place." This is good news.
Great thread. So now you can "let it ride" for a year or 13,000 miles!
Second test looking good. The silicon has fallen by about half. If you figure 10ppm for a 6 cylinder engine and 10ppm for the additives in Mobil 1 0W-40, looks like you are very close to the pin. (golf reference)
The Mg is also way down, indicating the bearings have been "well polished in place." This is good news.
Great thread. So now you can "let it ride" for a year or 13,000 miles!