Custom "FULL" Upper Switch Row
06-02-2008, 06:03 PM
#26
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Thanks for the reply...That is what my dad and I are thinking, and that is what we have done in the past.
The pain will be that M-B molded SOME of the blank switches in white and then painted those satin black, and some are molded in a satin black...so I may be casting custom white buttons in a 2 part resin and hope I can back light them...And then I need to "activate" the micro-switch...
I think if I can isolate the PCB path that are under the momentary rubber button and run a few micro-switches and send that to a relay bank to power the devices and options I am looking to install. That is a key thought. I DO NOT want to upset ANYTHING the M-B engineers worked years on to figure out and build with a warranty, I am just trying to feed the Industrial Designer in me to make this visually complete - and add in useful "features" that "belong" - thanks again!
Take care,
Jake
The pain will be that M-B molded SOME of the blank switches in white and then painted those satin black, and some are molded in a satin black...so I may be casting custom white buttons in a 2 part resin and hope I can back light them...And then I need to "activate" the micro-switch...
I think if I can isolate the PCB path that are under the momentary rubber button and run a few micro-switches and send that to a relay bank to power the devices and options I am looking to install. That is a key thought. I DO NOT want to upset ANYTHING the M-B engineers worked years on to figure out and build with a warranty, I am just trying to feed the Industrial Designer in me to make this visually complete - and add in useful "features" that "belong" - thanks again!
Take care,
Jake
06-03-2008, 11:22 PM
#28
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Hi,
Still working on the button PCB...Those that have a FULL CLK switch row - or a switch row with icons not being used - I have read that some people will want to / or can upgrade them to a feature later - does anyone have information on that? I am trying to learn how the CAN BUS sends information to a SAM unit and if I can do anything with that.
I have seen some Coupes with a switch row that had a powered rear sun shade button - and read of the hopes to make it "do" something else - Anyone???
Here is a new crack at an animal alert button...plays off of the lettering on the ESP button...
Thanks,
Jake
Still working on the button PCB...Those that have a FULL CLK switch row - or a switch row with icons not being used - I have read that some people will want to / or can upgrade them to a feature later - does anyone have information on that? I am trying to learn how the CAN BUS sends information to a SAM unit and if I can do anything with that.
I have seen some Coupes with a switch row that had a powered rear sun shade button - and read of the hopes to make it "do" something else - Anyone???
Here is a new crack at an animal alert button...plays off of the lettering on the ESP button...
Thanks,
Jake
the entire switch row is CANBUS controlled and unless you have a way to read CAN signals from the CAN network, your idea will not work. You can add a fully optioned switch row on a coupe although some buttons will not work. The rear shade button on the coupe is useless unless you tap into the output wires in the rear sam where the shade would be plugged in on a sedan. The shade is a 2 wire unit that reverses polarity to reverse direction. The Rear SAM does detect load on these wires via AMP draw and shuts down the signal.
06-04-2008, 07:33 AM
#29
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Thanks SUNILP - Some positive help...I picked up a spare rear sunshade figuring that was a simple 12 volt wiper arm / window roller type mechanism (and it is with a 12 volt plug) and my dad and I were going to try and reverse engineer how it worked...I hate that you can not get wire diagrams - that would make life so much easier! Your explanation is exactly what we thought - but getting a spare unit seemed to be the only way to "test" out the theory...
Seeing that I have never seen a "full row" I am wondering what "could" be under the buttons that are never filled...
IE - Under PTS, Under sunshade, Under ESP, Under Headrest as the PCB and soft button are there...
I think the best bet – as previously posted – and as we have done before is to run mini-switches…as an example that is how the steering wheel cruise buttons are now working in my w123…
Thanks,
Jake
Seeing that I have never seen a "full row" I am wondering what "could" be under the buttons that are never filled...
IE - Under PTS, Under sunshade, Under ESP, Under Headrest as the PCB and soft button are there...
I think the best bet – as previously posted – and as we have done before is to run mini-switches…as an example that is how the steering wheel cruise buttons are now working in my w123…
Thanks,
Jake
06-05-2008, 03:51 PM
#30
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Thanks SUNILP - Some positive help...I picked up a spare rear sunshade figuring that was a simple 12 volt wiper arm / window roller type mechanism (and it is with a 12 volt plug) and my dad and I were going to try and reverse engineer how it worked...I hate that you can not get wire diagrams - that would make life so much easier! Your explanation is exactly what we thought - but getting a spare unit seemed to be the only way to "test" out the theory...
Seeing that I have never seen a "full row" I am wondering what "could" be under the buttons that are never filled...
IE - Under PTS, Under sunshade, Under ESP, Under Headrest as the PCB and soft button are there...
I think the best bet – as previously posted – and as we have done before is to run mini-switches…as an example that is how the steering wheel cruise buttons are now working in my w123…
Thanks,
Jake
Seeing that I have never seen a "full row" I am wondering what "could" be under the buttons that are never filled...
IE - Under PTS, Under sunshade, Under ESP, Under Headrest as the PCB and soft button are there...
I think the best bet – as previously posted – and as we have done before is to run mini-switches…as an example that is how the steering wheel cruise buttons are now working in my w123…
Thanks,
Jake
Jake,
Running mini switches would still be difficult since there is a board under the dummy buttons.
Here is a link to the switch row in my car. Fully optioned.
http://web.mac.com/motorwerks/German...d_Seats.html#0
06-06-2008, 08:37 AM
#31
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Thank you SUNILP – you are no doubt correct – Have you opened up a switch row too? I am thinking it would be difficult (Not impossible) to mount some mini switches in-between the button top and the PCB. I would have to isolate the PCB so that there is no contact being made…You can see even where there is no switch that I know exists…the PCB still has some leads…
I think first I need to figure out how to make the buttons look stock…then figure out how to make them work…that is the life of a designer…first get the right look and feel – then figure out how it works!
Thanks!
Jake
I think first I need to figure out how to make the buttons look stock…then figure out how to make them work…that is the life of a designer…first get the right look and feel – then figure out how it works!
Thanks!
Jake
Last edited by BF_JC230; 06-06-2008 at 08:40 AM.
06-06-2008, 12:53 PM
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Jake,
Running mini switches would still be difficult since there is a board under the dummy buttons.
Here is a link to the switch row in my car. Fully optioned.
http://web.mac.com/motorwerks/German...d_Seats.html#0
Running mini switches would still be difficult since there is a board under the dummy buttons.
Here is a link to the switch row in my car. Fully optioned.
http://web.mac.com/motorwerks/German...d_Seats.html#0
06-06-2008, 07:14 PM
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05 C230SS
Thank you SUNILP – you are no doubt correct – Have you opened up a switch row too? I am thinking it would be difficult (Not impossible) to mount some mini switches in-between the button top and the PCB. I would have to isolate the PCB so that there is no contact being made…You can see even where there is no switch that I know exists…the PCB still has some leads…
I think first I need to figure out how to make the buttons look stock…then figure out how to make them work…that is the life of a designer…first get the right look and feel – then figure out how it works!
Thanks!
Jake
I think first I need to figure out how to make the buttons look stock…then figure out how to make them work…that is the life of a designer…first get the right look and feel – then figure out how it works!
Thanks!
Jake
GL
07-02-2008, 05:24 PM
#37
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1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
Jake,
any updates on your switch project ?
any updates on your switch project ?
07-02-2008, 05:36 PM
#38
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Sure...No BIG news...I have not been able to find out what is supposed to be under;
1. The PTS button
2. The Rear Sunshade button
3. The ESP button
4. The Rear Head Rest Fold button
*So if some one wants to be a super star - please share what those contacts are for*
So - I am next going to see if they are sending and receiving any signals...if so - I need to isolate them for the "mini switch" hook up.
Right now I am making rubber silicon molds of the buttons - the M-B engineers have specified SOME non used buttons molded in BLACK and others in the translucent white...So I need to make them all translucent white. Once I finished the mold they will be cast to be duplicated.
Then laser etched - with my icons...If any one has a suggestion on the icons - Please let me know - I think [ESP off] will change to the triangle with exclamation point icon.
Then we will be on to wiring the new switches and the OEM switches up to the non- factory options and factory options.
Making it look OEM has been the hardest part...that and that darn PCB!
I think I located the black paint to use so that is has the same finish – that is great!
Thanks,
Jake
1. The PTS button
2. The Rear Sunshade button
3. The ESP button
4. The Rear Head Rest Fold button
*So if some one wants to be a super star - please share what those contacts are for*
So - I am next going to see if they are sending and receiving any signals...if so - I need to isolate them for the "mini switch" hook up.
Right now I am making rubber silicon molds of the buttons - the M-B engineers have specified SOME non used buttons molded in BLACK and others in the translucent white...So I need to make them all translucent white. Once I finished the mold they will be cast to be duplicated.
Then laser etched - with my icons...If any one has a suggestion on the icons - Please let me know - I think [ESP off] will change to the triangle with exclamation point icon.
Then we will be on to wiring the new switches and the OEM switches up to the non- factory options and factory options.
Making it look OEM has been the hardest part...that and that darn PCB!
I think I located the black paint to use so that is has the same finish – that is great!
Thanks,
Jake
07-02-2008, 05:44 PM
#39
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1959 220S / 1979 230 G / 2002 A210 AMG / 2003 C320 SC / 2004.5 C320 SS / 2005 ML350 SE / 2008 smart
there is nothing under the PTS or ESP buttons. Those are blank. Always have been.
Before on the rear sunshade button was a two part deal. Top button was to raise the rear sunshade, the bottom button was to lower the rear sunshade.
That's how it is on the pre-2005 interior facelifted W203's.
Carlos
Saprissa
Before on the rear sunshade button was a two part deal. Top button was to raise the rear sunshade, the bottom button was to lower the rear sunshade.
That's how it is on the pre-2005 interior facelifted W203's.
Carlos
Saprissa
07-03-2008, 07:49 PM
#40
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Thanks Saprissa - I have never been able to find an image showing anything there, or read of any facotry options - BUT the PCB is prewired for it - the soft key rubber buttons are there underneath the hard plastic button...If I could remove this (these) sections of the PCB I would have a TON more room to mount my switches...
Anyone?
Jake
Anyone?
Jake
07-03-2008, 09:34 PM
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'04 Mars Red C230K Sport Coupe (not Coup-EH)
Thanks Saprissa - I have never been able to find an image showing anything there, or read of any facotry options - BUT the PCB is prewired for it - the soft key rubber buttons are there underneath the hard plastic button...If I could remove this (these) sections of the PCB I would have a TON more room to mount my switches...
Anyone?
Jake
Anyone?
Jake
I'm thinking a few possible (though difficult) ideas that may or may not work for you depending on your level of electrical engineering fu.
1. Part of the reason I want to see the other side of the board is to trace out the connections. It is always possible (though very difficult, but I've done it before) to find a terminal for the positive ends for those buttons, and connect to them, and, with a knife, cut away the trace back to the chip (or terminal that plugs into the other part of the switch row, in this case, hard to see without the back) and wire in your device there. If it doesn't have a terminal, this means some more creative knife work separating the trace from the board and using that as a solder point. Not fun. Though if we're lucky, the traces go to the other side of the board through those round terminals. If that's the case, we can cut the trace on the other side and use those terminals as solder points.
2. Get your own board printed. Not so expensive these days, and you can trace away the buttons you want to go to terminals to wire in your own options. A friend of mine was also able to etch his own boards using a layout printed from a laser printer and using the toner as a medium for the acid to etch out the traces. However, not only was that hard (he tried quite a few laser printers), his boards were not double sided (which this looks to be), and his traces were not as fine. Still, some EE geek at a local university might be willing to take on this challenge; there were always those kinds of guys in the IEEE at Cal.
EDIT:
I forgot to ask: you mentioned laser etching of the new molded buttons that you're making. Can you give us some details on that? I was thinking of getting some blank button covers and putting in some novelty button icons (not real buttons, just the icons) like rocket launcher, driver and passenger ejector seats, flight mode, underwater mode, and time travel
. Again, these are for novelty, but think about how your passengers would take it; it would look legit, but they'd be afraid of asking you if they actually work Plus I'd love to see how many people would try to trigger the ejector seat option
Last edited by jedcred; 07-03-2008 at 09:52 PM.
07-04-2008, 03:21 PM
#44
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Can you get us some high-res pictures of both sides of that board? (If not, PM me and you can email them to me so I can put them up for others)
I'm thinking a few possible (though difficult) ideas that may or may not work for you depending on your level of electrical engineering fu.
I'm thinking a few possible (though difficult) ideas that may or may not work for you depending on your level of electrical engineering fu.
I will keep you up to date on the laser engraving - seems pretty easy - cast part in translucent white / paint it black / create vector art for burn path and etch icon into part by removing the paint...Should be fun!
Thanks for any help,
Jake
07-04-2008, 05:04 PM
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'04 Mars Red C230K Sport Coupe (not Coup-EH)
Doing translations of CANBUS signals is another option. It would be much cleaner in the long run, as long as those signals are introduced into the bus. However, I doubt very much that MB engineers put in the buttons and all that without at least allowing for the possibility that their signals would be run into the network, even if they're never used.
The only catch is finding (which there may be) a unit that attaches to the CANBUS and allows you to use the button presses as signals that you can use; the adapter for my radio to interpret the buttons does the same thing, though in a much more limited capacity. You could always do it yourself, but that's quite a bit of reverse-engineering and signal processing, as well as programming a chip to do it. Hey, if you build it, they may come...
The only catch is finding (which there may be) a unit that attaches to the CANBUS and allows you to use the button presses as signals that you can use; the adapter for my radio to interpret the buttons does the same thing, though in a much more limited capacity. You could always do it yourself, but that's quite a bit of reverse-engineering and signal processing, as well as programming a chip to do it. Hey, if you build it, they may come...
07-05-2008, 12:11 PM
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some slow@$$diesels
I like your icon drawing skils...and personally I think that is as far as you are going to get.
As sunil already mentioned - the upper switchrow is CANBUS based...the switchrow has a electrical board inside and adding LEDs for illumination and control lights will be the easiest thing to do - so is turning the non moving buttons into moving buttons...the rest is never going to happen.
For ventilated seats you will need factory ventilated seats (209 CLK for example)...the leather HAS to be perforated - the structure of the seat cushions (the flling) is completely different and the heated seat paddings/elements have holes in them to let the air come through.
If you insist on doing some modifications - make it yourself easy and start with comand...then you can do distronic and if you managed to pull that off, you can try to do more advanced stuff like programming your own CANBUS signals so that you can make a full option switchrow to work.
greetingz,
As sunil already mentioned - the upper switchrow is CANBUS based...the switchrow has a electrical board inside and adding LEDs for illumination and control lights will be the easiest thing to do - so is turning the non moving buttons into moving buttons...the rest is never going to happen.
For ventilated seats you will need factory ventilated seats (209 CLK for example)...the leather HAS to be perforated - the structure of the seat cushions (the flling) is completely different and the heated seat paddings/elements have holes in them to let the air come through.
If you insist on doing some modifications - make it yourself easy and start with comand...then you can do distronic and if you managed to pull that off, you can try to do more advanced stuff like programming your own CANBUS signals so that you can make a full option switchrow to work.
greetingz,
07-29-2008, 09:37 PM
#47
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I like your icon drawing skils...and personally I think that is as far as you are going to get.
- Thanks...I am trying to make it look OEM and universal - I am still playing with the ultrasonic 20 kHz animal warning icon...I hope I can get further than this...If I can get the needed information (IE wire diagrams leading from the PCB to the appropriate SAM unit and then to a possible control module...seems like all the buttons are wired to something...I am working on the buttons first...)
As sunil already mentioned - the upper switchrow is CANBUS based...the switchrow has a electrical board inside and adding LEDs for illumination and control lights will be the easiest thing to do - so is turning the non moving buttons into moving buttons...the rest is never going to happen.
- Yes, I see the PCB, I need now to get a FULL CLK row with the full OEM switches and see if it is the same PCB or if they are building unique PCBs as well...man that would be a lot of inventory! I plan to transfer the LEDs from this PCB to the CLK PCB and get them to power up when the lights are on...the "non moving buttons" are moving now and I am casting the only button that was not molded white / translucent in a material close to the OEM and will be painting black...I ordered the black paint and hope it gets here soon...Once that is done I found a guy willing to give it a go on laser etching my icons from DXF through the paint...then it is on to tagging the PCB for signals!
For ventilated seats you will need factory ventilated seats (209 CLK for example)...the leather HAS to be perforated - the structure of the seat cushions (the flling) is completely different and the heated seat paddings/elements have holes in them to let the air come through.
- The leather INSERTS are perforated with the car being a 2005 Sport Sedan, the words you type about the OEM heating elemnts being perforated as well scare me because it seems the Mercedes / Chrysler technolgy is to pull air away from the occupant and into the cabin - thus causing a "wind chill" effect - I see no indication that Mercedes is using any Thermo-Electric systems in the seat...also the fact that you can have heat and vent on at the same time point in no Thermo-Electric plate being used...I am really looking to just pull as much air out of the seat bottom and back as possible to wick it away from the body...My buddy that just showed me a 2009 Dodge Ram seemed to have a similar perforated seat that was vented and heated...
If you insist on doing some modifications - make it yourself easy and start with comand...then you can do distronic and if you managed to pull that off, you can try to do more advanced stuff like programming your own CANBUS signals so that you can make a full option switchrow to work.
- I hope to get the MSCII unit someday - the distronic seems nice, but I am mostly on back roads, under 50mph and our town has six red lights...I am reading up on CANBUS programming...I hope to just use the OEM switch and fire a signal to a control module on CAN B and then get it to power up what I want...The horn system and rear sun shade seem pretty straight forward...Horn - Pressing button fires signal through the EIS control through CAN B to the front SAM into 1ka horn relay then out to horn...
greetingz,
- Thanks...I am trying to make it look OEM and universal - I am still playing with the ultrasonic 20 kHz animal warning icon...I hope I can get further than this...If I can get the needed information (IE wire diagrams leading from the PCB to the appropriate SAM unit and then to a possible control module...seems like all the buttons are wired to something...I am working on the buttons first...)
As sunil already mentioned - the upper switchrow is CANBUS based...the switchrow has a electrical board inside and adding LEDs for illumination and control lights will be the easiest thing to do - so is turning the non moving buttons into moving buttons...the rest is never going to happen.
- Yes, I see the PCB, I need now to get a FULL CLK row with the full OEM switches and see if it is the same PCB or if they are building unique PCBs as well...man that would be a lot of inventory! I plan to transfer the LEDs from this PCB to the CLK PCB and get them to power up when the lights are on...the "non moving buttons" are moving now and I am casting the only button that was not molded white / translucent in a material close to the OEM and will be painting black...I ordered the black paint and hope it gets here soon...Once that is done I found a guy willing to give it a go on laser etching my icons from DXF through the paint...then it is on to tagging the PCB for signals!
For ventilated seats you will need factory ventilated seats (209 CLK for example)...the leather HAS to be perforated - the structure of the seat cushions (the flling) is completely different and the heated seat paddings/elements have holes in them to let the air come through.
- The leather INSERTS are perforated with the car being a 2005 Sport Sedan, the words you type about the OEM heating elemnts being perforated as well scare me because it seems the Mercedes / Chrysler technolgy is to pull air away from the occupant and into the cabin - thus causing a "wind chill" effect - I see no indication that Mercedes is using any Thermo-Electric systems in the seat...also the fact that you can have heat and vent on at the same time point in no Thermo-Electric plate being used...I am really looking to just pull as much air out of the seat bottom and back as possible to wick it away from the body...My buddy that just showed me a 2009 Dodge Ram seemed to have a similar perforated seat that was vented and heated...
If you insist on doing some modifications - make it yourself easy and start with comand...then you can do distronic and if you managed to pull that off, you can try to do more advanced stuff like programming your own CANBUS signals so that you can make a full option switchrow to work.
- I hope to get the MSCII unit someday - the distronic seems nice, but I am mostly on back roads, under 50mph and our town has six red lights...I am reading up on CANBUS programming...I hope to just use the OEM switch and fire a signal to a control module on CAN B and then get it to power up what I want...The horn system and rear sun shade seem pretty straight forward...Horn - Pressing button fires signal through the EIS control through CAN B to the front SAM into 1ka horn relay then out to horn...
greetingz,
Jake
07-30-2008, 01:56 AM
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Even if this whole project fails, you should still make a little sticker of the boot drying in the sun and put it on one of the buttons. At least it would be hilarious every time you looked at it.
07-30-2008, 08:49 AM
#49
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Yeah - That foot well lighting icon idea did not go over too well - Thanks everyone for the ideas and insight!
I think this one is much more in line with the OEM lighting icons...I.E. the overhead console with map lights...
I think too that this is the "final" icon for the ultrasonic 20 kHz warning device...
The one real bugger is I am absolutely amazed, just amazed at how perfect of a job the clear lens is co-molded into the button cover for the red or blue colored LEDs to shine through (OFF mode or Heat / Cool) – I do not think I can replicate that by hand – and the exterior finish is so smooth and perfect it is molding and finishing genius…Well done M-B engineers!
Thanks all,
Jake
I think this one is much more in line with the OEM lighting icons...I.E. the overhead console with map lights...
I think too that this is the "final" icon for the ultrasonic 20 kHz warning device...
The one real bugger is I am absolutely amazed, just amazed at how perfect of a job the clear lens is co-molded into the button cover for the red or blue colored LEDs to shine through (OFF mode or Heat / Cool) – I do not think I can replicate that by hand – and the exterior finish is so smooth and perfect it is molding and finishing genius…Well done M-B engineers!
Thanks all,
Jake
08-01-2008, 01:16 PM
#50
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Well this is the FINAL icon lay out...DXF files are created - now off to the laser etcher...The one part molded black has a mold made to duplicate it and will be reproduced soon...in a white translucent material close to the ABS?PC blend...
Thanks all for the help,
Jake
Thanks all for the help,
Jake
