Outland

That's not true speed shifting...speed shifting is done without the clutch...it takes a strong arm, and a feel for when to do it. Using the clutch, you'll hit the rev limiter keeping it floored unless you shift early.

Its very hard on the synchros, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you like to destroy things. Macphisted's method isn't hard on the synchros, but it will wear the clutch more, and given the kinda torque available, you'll probably loose a little time after a few dozen of these start glazing the clutch disc.

MacPhisto

The faster you shift, the more you force the synchros to work.

The extreme shifting speed necessary when "power shifting" is indeed hard on the synchros. If you "power shifted" all the time, your second gear synchro would last maybe 5,000 miles.

02Impressor

Well, the whole point of me using the c230 is to prepare for a future car with manual drive. I am not saying that driving touch-shift is an equivalent to a real stick car. The whole point of me learning with touch-shift is to get used to gear selection and try to understand when it's the right time to switch.

Everyone that I know says listen for the sounds or watch the RPMs at first. Hopefully I'll understand one or the other after a few practice stints.

JustinTRW

Sounds good. The one thing I might add about touchshift is that you don't actually select the gear always. Selecting "3" will allow the computer to shift between gears 1, 2, and 3. So essentially you are selecting an upper limit. If you stomp on the throttle while in "2" from a standstill, you will still have started in gear 1. Does this make sense?

02Impressor

Sort of. :p

But keep the tips coming lol ...remember I'm teaching myself so I want to be know as much as possible because there's going to be no one there to explain it to me then.

JustinTRW

Ok, well in a manual transmission, when you engage a particular gear, that is the gear the car drives in. In touchshift, when you select a gear, you allow the computer to select that gear AND any gear lower than that. So if you think you are in "4", just keep in mind that the automatic tranny may have selected any gear below that too. The only thing you know for sure is that 5th has not been selected.

session

Learning to drive stick on a new car under warranty is the best option because, just that, it's under warranty.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you, as I have very little practice driving stick and my next car will definitely be a manual. Driving stick is fun... The first time I tried it out, I was driving a Jeep Wrangler on the side of a mountain... If you can drive stick in that situation, you can drive stick in any situation

JustinTRW

I hate to admit it, but Wranglers are fun to offroad in! I have a friend and we usually go out and end up somewhere we never expected. Then when we get back out on the street, I hate the car again. Terrible road manners, but good capability.

oggle

The touch shift and other equivalents such as tiptronic are such a marketing gimmic. They make you think it's a manual emulator, but it's so not.

Put it this way, you can do that same thing with a Honda civic automatic. D4, D3, D2, D1. Absolutely the same thing. Not that attractive anymore heh?

Matt230K

Actually, you're not really even selecting the upper limit. The car will shift when it hits redline. So really you are just selecting to hold that gear longer, until redline.

02Impressor, try putting your car in 1 and floor it and it will shift perfectly into each higher gear at redline. It's better than doing it yourself. If you do it yourself, you have to bump the shifter before redline or else the delay will send the engine into rev limiter before it selects the next gear.

You can use the touchshift to determine when to select gears. But remember that all cars are different and you will have to shift different cars at different times if you want to keep it in the powerband. You can watch RPM's or listen to them, but again this is different in all cars. Redlines will be different and the engine sound will be different. Some cars get pretty loud and sound like they need to shift long before redline.

JustinTRW

You are right, but I didn't think he'd be redlining every gear. In fact, I've gotten my car to hold 3rd at 5500 rpm for a long time in "D". That's anothers story though...

Matt230K

But that's because of the different electronics in the C32, right?. I thought it was just designed not to shift if you are in a tight turn. But I have noticed if you have the revs up and then lift off the gas it will hold for a much longer time. One time, I was driving a C32 with it floored in D and lifted real fast. It held its gear so long, I didn't think it would ever shift. I kept trying to use the touchshift to make it upshift and it wouldn't for what seemed like a long time, probably 5-10 seconds. Does that sound normal?

JustinTRW

The situation you describe was similar to mine. I was charging hard on the freeway, lifted high in 3rd, and it wouldn't upshift. I gave it a small throttle blip, nothing happened, so I tapped the lever to the right (even though it was still in "D") and it went into fourth. The more aggressive you are, the better the tranny gets.

MarkL

I don't mean to "rain on your parade", but IMO, playing with the touchshift will add almost nothing in learning to drive a stick. Learning what gear to select is probably the least of the problems when learning to drive a manual. I mean, you basically want to keep the revs between 2K and 4K for most normal driving situations, at least with the gearing in my C240.

The basic things you need to learn w/ a stick are starting from a stop, first on level ground and then on an incline, and this means learning where the clutch grabs (each car is different) and learning how to launch smoothly; learning the proper coordination of the throttle and clutch during shifts. Worrying about what gear to be in fades away pretty quickly.

Think about it -- once rolling, you're only going to choose between 2nd and 3rd in most situations which require a quick decision when downshifting. 5th and 6th are only used at highway speeds, 1st is used only from rest, or a very slow roll. 2nd and 3rd are your main acceleration gears once you're under way. Depending on how "spirited" you're driving, you'll just keep the rpms below the redline during extreme acceleration.

Outland

The BEST way to learn stick is when you are first learning to drive. Buying ANY automatic car thinking its going to be practice for owning the real thing is a joke.

02Impressor

Ah crap, you really hurt my feelings with this second post
But still, I'd like to drive (atleast) touch-shift. Seems like automatic is a novice thing and nothing spectacular. Everyone says how much fun manual is but for now maybe I can have fun with a touch-shift. Maybe.

MB-BOB

You can learn that simply by watching the tachometer in your automatic and listening to the engine. Both will tell you when to switch (although autos shift somewhat conservatively).

The touch shift is nothing like driving a true manual. As others have said the primary trick to an learning a manual is practice-practice-practice with timing gas and clutch (the two-foot shuffle). Learning how to use the manual pattern and gauging when to shift is the easiest part of working with a manual, IMO.

JustinTRW

Ok kids, next week's topic: "Heel-Toe Downshifting". I honestly think this would abe a nice topic to discuss.

avlis

We've done that topic a few times. I still find it impossible to do in my coupe. Not only is the pedal spacing off, the gas is hinged on the bottom. If that's not enough, there is no such thing as a throttle "blip" on my car. The RPMs don't rise fast enough to match the tranny speed.

I'd like to hear from someone that successfully heel-toe shifts a C-class.

Link: http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving...ornering.lasso

Matt230K

I know what you mean. I can't do heel-toe just because the position is too awkward for my foot. And you can't roll the right side of your foot onto the gas because the spacing is too far, at least for my foot. I don't have the problem blipping the throttle like you do, but I always have to take my foot off the brake to do it. You probably just have to hold it a bit longer to get the revs up.

avlis

You're right. I do raise the RPMs if I'm downshifting and don't need brakes. I do have to hold the gas a bit longer as you said but, then that's not a "blip". It more like a long, drawn out "blllllllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip". My wife's Accord has a free'er revving engine and will give a good "blip!" when heel-toeing (which I hardly ever do because I still suck at it).

Note: I thought I remember reading a review of the C-Class where the writer said the pedals were good for heel-toeing. I wonder if they actually drove the car or they were just admiring the C7 pedals?

hrh

Truly depends on the driver and/or the driver's foot. I have size 12 feet and even then, it depends on what shoes/sneakers I'm wearing. This is not an easy car to heel-toe, but it can be done.

Matt230K

Are you actually doing heel and toe with your heel on the gas and toe on the brake? Or are you rolling the right side of your foot onto the gas. I can almost do that, I wear size 12 also. But I never feel like enough of my foot is on the brake to be comfortable. Real heel and toe-ing is just too awkward for me and I never bothered to teach myself.

hrh

It's kind of a combination of both. I was using "heel/toe" as the generic expression for using the brake and gas simultaneously with the same foot, as I imagine the author of the referenced article did. You are right in that using the right side of the foot on the gas is more the way to go. I think the problem lies in the fact that the brake pivots up under the dash and the gas pivots on the bottom of the pedal. Your heel is just not going to have much control at the "hinge" end of the gas pedal as it would at the top -- not nearly as much mechanical advantage.

Whatever gets it done smoothly enough so as not to break one's concentration on the driving situation is what you should do. I find the technique varies with the car. . .

Matt230K

This is true. I think I could do it very easily if I could just reach the gas a little easier with the right side of my foot. It's still okay to let off the brake to hit the gas in normal driving, and then get back on the brake. But if I ever took the car to the track someday, it wouldn't work to lift off the brake just to blip the throttle. I think a pedal modification would help.