***C230K Holiday Special***
12-22-2008, 03:55 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Umm... sweet. So, alloy pulley with steel sleeve? Yes, the ASP is like adding a giant gyro to the engine.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
wasn't attached very well.
Looks like your is bolted on very securely.
There was a great deal of discussion on the harmonic balancer....
if you search back around 2002-2003 you can see the discussions that went on. But, Ed is doing fine with a solid pulley.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
wasn't attached very well.
Looks like your is bolted on very securely.
There was a great deal of discussion on the harmonic balancer....
if you search back around 2002-2003 you can see the discussions that went on. But, Ed is doing fine with a solid pulley.
Last edited by C230 Sport Coup; 12-22-2008 at 04:00 PM.
12-22-2008, 04:06 PM
#28
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Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi
Umm... sweet. So, alloy pulley with steel sleeve? Yes, the ASP is like adding a giant gyro to the engine.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
looks like your is bolted on very securely.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
looks like your is bolted on very securely.
Once the OEM pulley arrives, I'll see what we can come up with.
I will hopefully have new dyno numbers for a stock 230 after the holidays. The good news is that our remote tuning system will work with the 230. This means that we can remotely tune your car anywhere in the USA. The only stipulation is that the dyno shop has to have available internet access for our system.
Pics of the remote tuning system.
12-22-2008, 04:08 PM
#29
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2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
Umm... sweet. So, alloy pulley with steel sleeve? Yes, the ASP is like adding a giant gyro to the engine.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
wasn't attached very well.
Looks like your is bolted on very securely.
There was a great deal of discussion on the harmonic balancer....
if you search back around 2002-2003 you can see the discussions that went on. But, Ed is doing fine with a solid pulley.
I noticed my car next to a Kleeman'd (alloy) car
(Ed's) his revved much faster, and came down faster as well.
FYI- Yeh, the Kleeman product is no longer available so you wouldn't have
any competition there.
ASP tried a steel sleeve on alloy at one point, but it spun off the pulley...
wasn't attached very well.
Looks like your is bolted on very securely.
There was a great deal of discussion on the harmonic balancer....
if you search back around 2002-2003 you can see the discussions that went on. But, Ed is doing fine with a solid pulley.
The unit was shipped to LET on Friday.
E
12-23-2008, 11:59 AM
#34
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C230 Kompressor Sport Sedan
Please don't forget about us little 1.8L's here!
BTW/Side Note: I did the S/C res delete and, while driving, one of the couplers popped off, basically deleting the S/C as it had no back pressure.
All i can say is that i'm impressed with the stock S/C as that 1.8L felt like it has less power then my niece's barbie jeep!
That being said, I thinking a pully for the m271 would really help that engine... IMO (from a guy new to the MB scene).
Last edited by billbugger; 12-23-2008 at 12:04 PM.
01-07-2009, 11:59 AM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
...different materials? different thickness?
although your pulley may be slightly larger and can generate more torque, it looks to me that it may be less efficient thank the stock because it is "filled out". The holes in the stock pulley decrease the moment of inerta and most probably requires less work/energy to make it spin faster. i think this will make a big difference on the durability of the belt in the long run and possibly other areas...
01-07-2009, 06:11 PM
#38
Senior Member
I am in the market now for a Pulley for a M111 and have a dyno near buy.
Sport Coup brought up some interesting facts.
I have some questions as well.
What is the diameter of your Pulley Vs the ASP, and the Carlsson? The Carlsson is a 1 piece Aluminum unit i believe.
In these cars Bigger is better.
I would also be interested in a Adjustable Fuel Regulator as you can fine tune on a dyno for best AFR Vs HP.
Regarding the ECU Tune, can you take out the Timing Shift Retard to get rid of some of the Slush box feel of the Automatics?
Thanks,
Dave
Sport Coup brought up some interesting facts.
I have some questions as well.
What is the diameter of your Pulley Vs the ASP, and the Carlsson? The Carlsson is a 1 piece Aluminum unit i believe.
In these cars Bigger is better.
I would also be interested in a Adjustable Fuel Regulator as you can fine tune on a dyno for best AFR Vs HP.
Regarding the ECU Tune, can you take out the Timing Shift Retard to get rid of some of the Slush box feel of the Automatics?
Thanks,
Dave
01-09-2009, 09:30 AM
#39
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white and whiter
your pulley is definitely larger, so how can yours be lighter?
...different materials? different thickness?
although your pulley may be slightly larger and can generate more torque, it looks to me that it may be less efficient thank the stock because it is "filled out". The holes in the stock pulley decrease the moment of inerta and most probably requires less work/energy to make it spin faster. i think this will make a big difference on the durability of the belt in the long run and possibly other areas...
...different materials? different thickness?
although your pulley may be slightly larger and can generate more torque, it looks to me that it may be less efficient thank the stock because it is "filled out". The holes in the stock pulley decrease the moment of inerta and most probably requires less work/energy to make it spin faster. i think this will make a big difference on the durability of the belt in the long run and possibly other areas...
you can read about other stuff by searching C32/55 forum.
01-09-2009, 11:15 AM
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2007 C230 and 1985 Monte SS
your pulley is definitely larger, so how can yours be lighter?
...different materials? different thickness?
although your pulley may be slightly larger and can generate more torque, it looks to me that it may be less efficient thank the stock because it is "filled out". The holes in the stock pulley decrease the moment of inerta and most probably requires less work/energy to make it spin faster. i think this will make a big difference on the durability of the belt in the long run and possibly other areas...
...different materials? different thickness?
although your pulley may be slightly larger and can generate more torque, it looks to me that it may be less efficient thank the stock because it is "filled out". The holes in the stock pulley decrease the moment of inerta and most probably requires less work/energy to make it spin faster. i think this will make a big difference on the durability of the belt in the long run and possibly other areas...
The larger pulley is lighter, and it looks like its a little better distributed. I'd imagine its got a MOI very close to stock, if not lower.
01-09-2009, 12:04 PM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
Haha, he's talking for his SLK230 with MAF relocation and FPR, that's a totally different pulley than what's on a 2002 C230, different size, different belt planes (forget the 2003+ C230, not even in the same zip code). Don't know the reason they include an ECU change but I know that Dynospot has a pulley kit for the older SLK's also, and they mitigate the problems associated with that motor with ECU updates from GIAC rather than the MAF relocation and FPR used by other kits including Kleemann and ASP. I worked with GIAC to develop a chip to go hand in hand with the pullies used on the 2002 C230 and newer SLK230 but there was not enough of a gain to make it worthwhile and they are not the type of company to make up numbers or tweak their dyno to make 3HP gain look like 30HP gain.
But lets assume it could possibly work in a 2002 C230, it's an aluminum pulley with a steel hub, this was ASP's biggest mistakes because of 2 reasons, 1) the steel bolts wear against the aluminum pulley and eventually goes out of balance and self destructs, 2) this eliminates the factory harmonic balancer, this too has proven to be problematic as long term crankshaft vibrations have proven to cause damage to the bearings. This is why ASP discontinued this design after about a month. I had it on my car about 2 months and never had problems with it, but one person did. ASP has experience from hundreds of pulleys on 2002 C230 and SLK230's, SL55, E55, C32 and more, just takes one bad experience for them to pull a product design as it's not worth the risk for them. They even never released the pulley for the 2003+ C230's because of negligable power gains and detonation at high RPMs.
You want real power, get a C32, they are pretty cheap now.
DRB930, nobody with any credentials makes a solid aluminum pulley for the 2002 C230, especially Carlsonn. To preserve the harmonic balancer, they (Vaeth, Opera, Brabus, Renntech, Carlsonn, ASP, etc.) take a factory pulley, machine the grooves off the outer plane. Then they press or weld a ring, usually steel because otherwise the different metals would expand differently and then they machine new grooves on and then rebalance the pulley. Don't know of anyone that veers from this formula except Kleemann that currently sells a steel ring that you put in place and hold with set screws to the factory pulley. At one time, long, long ago, Kleemann and ASP made a solid aluminum pulley but those are history as an aluminum hub is too thin to hold up long term and people didn't want to part with their harmonic balancer.
But lets assume it could possibly work in a 2002 C230, it's an aluminum pulley with a steel hub, this was ASP's biggest mistakes because of 2 reasons, 1) the steel bolts wear against the aluminum pulley and eventually goes out of balance and self destructs, 2) this eliminates the factory harmonic balancer, this too has proven to be problematic as long term crankshaft vibrations have proven to cause damage to the bearings. This is why ASP discontinued this design after about a month. I had it on my car about 2 months and never had problems with it, but one person did. ASP has experience from hundreds of pulleys on 2002 C230 and SLK230's, SL55, E55, C32 and more, just takes one bad experience for them to pull a product design as it's not worth the risk for them. They even never released the pulley for the 2003+ C230's because of negligable power gains and detonation at high RPMs.
You want real power, get a C32, they are pretty cheap now.
DRB930, nobody with any credentials makes a solid aluminum pulley for the 2002 C230, especially Carlsonn. To preserve the harmonic balancer, they (Vaeth, Opera, Brabus, Renntech, Carlsonn, ASP, etc.) take a factory pulley, machine the grooves off the outer plane. Then they press or weld a ring, usually steel because otherwise the different metals would expand differently and then they machine new grooves on and then rebalance the pulley. Don't know of anyone that veers from this formula except Kleemann that currently sells a steel ring that you put in place and hold with set screws to the factory pulley. At one time, long, long ago, Kleemann and ASP made a solid aluminum pulley but those are history as an aluminum hub is too thin to hold up long term and people didn't want to part with their harmonic balancer.
Last edited by Buellwinkle; 01-09-2009 at 12:13 PM.
01-09-2009, 01:04 PM
#43
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2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
Haha, he's talking for his SLK230 with MAF relocation and FPR, that's a totally different pulley than what's on a 2002 C230, different size, different belt planes (forget the 2003+ C230, not even in the same zip code). Don't know the reason they include an ECU change but I know that Dynospot has a pulley kit for the older SLK's also, and they mitigate the problems associated with that motor with ECU updates from GIAC rather than the MAF relocation and FPR used by other kits including Kleemann and ASP. I worked with GIAC to develop a chip to go hand in hand with the pullies used on the 2002 C230 and newer SLK230 but there was not enough of a gain to make it worthwhile and they are not the type of company to make up numbers or tweak their dyno to make 3HP gain look like 30HP gain.
But lets assume it could possibly work in a 2002 C230, it's an aluminum pulley with a steel hub, this was ASP's biggest mistakes because of 2 reasons, 1) the steel bolts wear against the aluminum pulley and eventually goes out of balance and self destructs, 2) this eliminates the factory harmonic balancer, this too has proven to be problematic as long term crankshaft vibrations have proven to cause damage to the bearings. This is why ASP discontinued this design after about a month. I had it on my car about 2 months and never had problems with it, but one person did. ASP has experience from hundreds of pulleys on 2002 C230 and SLK230's, SL55, E55, C32 and more, just takes one bad experience for them to pull a product design as it's not worth the risk for them. They even never released the pulley for the 2003+ C230's because of negligable power gains and detonation at high RPMs.
You want real power, get a C32, they are pretty cheap now.
DRB930, nobody with any credentials makes a solid aluminum pulley for the 2002 C230, especially Carlsonn. To preserve the harmonic balancer, they (Vaeth, Opera, Brabus, Renntech, Carlsonn, ASP, etc.) take a factory pulley, machine the grooves off the outer plane. Then they press or weld a ring, usually steel because otherwise the different metals would expand differently and then they machine new grooves on and then rebalance the pulley. Don't know of anyone that veers from this formula except Kleemann that currently sells a steel ring that you put in place and hold with set screws to the factory pulley. At one time, long, long ago, Kleemann and ASP made a solid aluminum pulley but those are history as an aluminum hub is too thin to hold up long term and people didn't want to part with their harmonic balancer.
But lets assume it could possibly work in a 2002 C230, it's an aluminum pulley with a steel hub, this was ASP's biggest mistakes because of 2 reasons, 1) the steel bolts wear against the aluminum pulley and eventually goes out of balance and self destructs, 2) this eliminates the factory harmonic balancer, this too has proven to be problematic as long term crankshaft vibrations have proven to cause damage to the bearings. This is why ASP discontinued this design after about a month. I had it on my car about 2 months and never had problems with it, but one person did. ASP has experience from hundreds of pulleys on 2002 C230 and SLK230's, SL55, E55, C32 and more, just takes one bad experience for them to pull a product design as it's not worth the risk for them. They even never released the pulley for the 2003+ C230's because of negligable power gains and detonation at high RPMs.
You want real power, get a C32, they are pretty cheap now.
DRB930, nobody with any credentials makes a solid aluminum pulley for the 2002 C230, especially Carlsonn. To preserve the harmonic balancer, they (Vaeth, Opera, Brabus, Renntech, Carlsonn, ASP, etc.) take a factory pulley, machine the grooves off the outer plane. Then they press or weld a ring, usually steel because otherwise the different metals would expand differently and then they machine new grooves on and then rebalance the pulley. Don't know of anyone that veers from this formula except Kleemann that currently sells a steel ring that you put in place and hold with set screws to the factory pulley. At one time, long, long ago, Kleemann and ASP made a solid aluminum pulley but those are history as an aluminum hub is too thin to hold up long term and people didn't want to part with their harmonic balancer.
I could be wrong, but I think I have the Kleeman aluminum piece. It is all one piece. I have about 80k miles on it so far.
E
01-09-2009, 04:17 PM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
Most people didn't have trouble with a solid pulley, just takes one horror story to make people take notice. I don't even think Unorthdox Racing made that many of what you have for Kleemann so it's law of averages. The most trouble was actually with the ring pulley and while a few had it come loose while driving, the biggest trend I noticed was many were losing their s/c, even seen one guy replace 3 if I remember correctly, replaced under warranty, but still a pain . I haven't heard of one person losing their s/c that didn't have a Kleemann ring pulley yet they still sell it through Denmark (not in U.S.). I'm all for these guys making a pulley kit but I think they wound up on the wrong forum, their product is geared towards the W202 C230. There's a huge difference between the 98-99 SLK230 pulley and the 2001-2004 SLK230 pulley and for 2000, the SLK230 had 3 different pulleys. The 2002 C230 has the same pulley as the 2001-2004 SLK230.
01-09-2009, 05:11 PM
#45
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01-09-2009, 08:45 PM
#46
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white and whiter
Most people didn't have trouble with a solid pulley, just takes one horror story to make people take notice. I don't even think Unorthdox Racing made that many of what you have for Kleemann so it's law of averages. The most trouble was actually with the ring pulley and while a few had it come loose while driving, the biggest trend I noticed was many were losing their s/c, even seen one guy replace 3 if I remember correctly, replaced under warranty, but still a pain . I haven't heard of one person losing their s/c that didn't have a Kleemann ring pulley yet they still sell it through Denmark (not in U.S.). I'm all for these guys making a pulley kit but I think they wound up on the wrong forum, their product is geared towards the W202 C230. There's a huge difference between the 98-99 SLK230 pulley and the 2001-2004 SLK230 pulley and for 2000, the SLK230 had 3 different pulleys. The 2002 C230 has the same pulley as the 2001-2004 SLK230.
Last edited by FrankW; 01-09-2009 at 08:48 PM.
01-10-2009, 09:59 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
There's a reason they made a solid alumium pulley, it's cheap. With the way most tuners do it, you start with a $320 factory damper and add to it and still do a lot of machining and balancing. A block of aluminum to make a pulley as big as the M111 pulley costs about $50, less for a C32 (smaller pulley) and it's already balanced straight out of the lathe. Back when ASP made solid aluminum pulleys, they sold them for half the price of the current pulleys, same amount of labor, the difference is material costs.
01-11-2009, 01:23 AM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
It looks like the holes are more towards the center and most of the bulk of the pulley is on the outter edge, which gives a higher moment of inertia, not lower. If you were to take that mass from the outside and "fill in" those holes on the inside, the MOI would actually decrease.
The larger pulley is lighter, and it looks like its a little better distributed. I'd imagine its got a MOI very close to stock, if not lower.
The larger pulley is lighter, and it looks like its a little better distributed. I'd imagine its got a MOI very close to stock, if not lower.
for the MOI:
i was comparing having holes versus not having holes... because thats the difference between these two pullies in just geometric design (besides size).
your response was as if i was comparing putting the bulk of the weight towards the center versus towards the outer edge. thats not the difference between these two pullies. you shouldn't be so quick to correct... because you're reading what i'm saying wrong.
and about the weight:
i was asking if it were a different material because i didn't see how it could be lighter with the shape and size.
i didnt say anything wrong. you need to read more carefully my friend...
01-11-2009, 11:38 PM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
In theory, a heavier pulley would take more energy to spin, no doubt it does, but everything is relative. For example a few pounds added to Lance Armstrong's bike may cost him a race. The amount of weight hanging off the crankshaft includes the rear wheels and tires, flywheel, belts and accessories, transmission, driveshaft, heck, a couple of pounds either way is not going to make much of difference when the crankshaft has a several hundred pounds it has to spin. So here's what we (GIAC and I) did, and feel free to do the same. We ran a bunch of dynos with an all aluminum pulley (no heavy steel hub) and then we ran a bunch of dynos with an all steel pulley, same diameter and we were careful to wait 20 minutes between pulls, measured IAT to make sure the s/c was at the same temp, we had massive cooling fans and guess what boys and girls, no difference in HP, none whatsoever. This myth was BUSTED! I feel like the guys on Mythbusters 
