Jens C320

Now that I have had the chance to drive my 2003 C320 4-Matic Wagon for a little while (1600 miles in 2 weeks) I have several observations which I would like to have opinions on.

1. I took some fast corners and the ESP kicks in quiet soon (might be the Goodyear RSA's fault. Who put those cheap tires on a $45,000 car anyway? They are the tires they Ford puts on the cheap 15" wheels. Once they wear out I'll probably get Pirelli's, I've always liked the P7000) but the rear of the car seems eager to break away...now I am not sure if that feeling comes from the way the ESP brakes the car (even though I didn't have the feeling in my 2000 328i when DSC intervened in corners). I don't want to disable ESP at this point just to see if the tail swings out or not, just not the smartest thing to do with a brand new car (I might try it in an empty parking lot just to see how the car handles under extremes). Any other owners have noticed the same "feeling"?

2. The automatic is giving me slight aggravation. This is the first automatic in the cars I have driven and I knew from the beginning that I shouldn’t expect the same performance out of it...but, the car is very sluggish from a start, I notice this especially when crossing streets, even my 2002 Ford Focus (Manual) seems better of the line (of course the MB will beat it to pretty much any speed). I am thinking that this might be because of the added 4-Matic driveline drag and weight...any comments?

3. The automatic also seems to have strange shifts (all of the following below is while using "S" mode and in Drive, not manually selecting gears). I drove my fathers 2002 GMC Sierra 1500 5.3L V-8 pickup and the automatic seems to shift better than the one in the C320. Even the Mazda Protege that I rode in seemed to shift better. When the C320 shifts it seems to idle for a moment (I think I saw a post about the same issue here recently) which makes for a strange ride in the car. Another issue is that when I slow down to a traffic light and I am about stopped the car seems to shift through all the gears to get to "1" from where I was cruising at, like "4th" gear, which won't allow me to make gentle, even stops. The car lurches a little each time it shifts down through the gears making it feel like I am using uneven brake pressure to slow the car to a stop.

4. Considering the windshield wipers are absolutely amazing I am extremely disappointed at the rear wiper:
* It skips most of the time.
* The washer takes almost 3 cycles to start spraying water, which causes the wiper to make horrible noises
* After the rear window is nice and clean, half the cleaning fluid leaks down making a mess of the rear window (even the Focus has a better design. At speeds above 30mph the airflow pushes the water away from the rear window which keeps it nice and clean)

5. The driver side seatbelt height adjuster is rattling which I am going to address at my first service.

6. The driver side door/window is making a whistling sound when driving on the Interstate which might be related to the rubber part between the driver side mirror and A-Pillar being warped. I'll also mention that at the service.

Other than that, I am very happy with the C320. My butt is thanking me for dumping the 328i and getting a car with a softer ride. Now if only it had the performance of the 328i :p

CHECKMATE

Your descriptions sound as though a trip to the dealer is warranted. The tranny should be as smooth as glass, and the rear wiper/washer is def. not operating properly. The sluggish acceleration is odd-the 320 should to put it mildly accelerate briskly. Although my wagon is not a 4matic, I have had none of the symptoms you describe and to date have been very pleased with the car.

Jens C320

I got a chance to test the car some more today and the rear doesn't want to swing out, it just feels different than I am used to. But the accelaration is still puzzeling me, I was on a dirt road and turned the ESP off, from a standstill I could not induce any wheelspin which I am sure even a Yugo could achieve...not until about 3000rpm does the car seem to accelerate nicely. I'll mention it to the dealer and see if he knows anything.

Mike T.

Even with ESP off, your 4Matic is active. So when your wheels try to slip under acceleration, the 4ETS (which is not switchable) is preventing you from accelerating as fast as you might expect to. There is nothing wrong with your car - that's just the nature of 4ETS, which brakes wheels that are slipping.

That remains my main criticism of Mercedes' 4WD system, something that Drew_ML was having trouble accepting a while back when I mentioned it.

For a high performance application, you do not want nanny driving aids for Grandma braking your wheels - to simulate a limited slip differential - during hard acceleration on loose surfaces. Instead, you want a real LSD in the rear and a viscous coupling (or super-high tech electronic differential) in the centre. Mercedes does not see fit to use such components, probably on cost grounds. Plus the 4Matics are not intended to be driven all that hard - they're not marketed or designed that way.

Jens C320

Thanks for the explanaition! But wouldn't the ESP light blink on the dash when the 4ETS is doing its stuff, even when I have ESP disabled? I also didn't notice any perceptable changes in the car like one does when the ESP is in action. But even on dry pavement the car starts slowly which I don't think relates to the 4ETS since the tires aren't anywhere near breaking loose. I'll have to see if I can drive another C320 4Matic Wagon to compare the acceleration. If I find it to be normal I won't mind, but it seems a lot slower than the 2 wheel drive C320.

CRB

Mercedes in notorious for having a ...er, um.. less than aggressive initial throttle response. In the October 2002 issue Car and Driver wrote:

"We've also just about had it with Benz's traditional slow-mo throttle tip-in — as if operated via various hawsers running through 20 feet of eaves troughing."

Car and Driver was, in fact, testing a C320 sedan without 4Matic but it would seem to be the phenomena that you are describing. A heavier wagon with all-wheel drive would definitely feel even more sluggish still. Some seat time in another C320 4Matic wagon will be the best way to find out if is a problem with your car.

BTW, Mike T. is correct about the intrusive nature of the 4EST system. If you ever have to climb a hill in freezing weather with icy/slushy type snow on the ground, you will feel the full effect of this electronic "big brother". (Drew's protestations not withstanding.)

Number three from you intitial post would seem to be the engine downshifting itself for "engine braking".
Again from C&D (Oct '02):

"What saved the Benz from embarrassment was its adaptive five-speed, which learns what mood you're in and is ever coiled to offer timely shifts and useful engine braking."

I think "S" is the sporty mode and would likely have the roughest downshifting of all settings. Try a different mode and see what happens.

Lynn

"S" is summer mode. When in "S", the car starts in first gear. When in "W" the car starts in second gear.

CRB

I guess the W mode wouldn't help his sluggish starts then.

Drew_ML

Uh Mike, his 4ETS did not even activate. Wheelspin does not result in faster acceleration.

4-matic = permanent AWD with no need for power transfer using weak viscous coupling centre differentials.

What you seem to have trouble accepting is that the system is excellent at what it does and only intervenes when necessary. Perhaps you need to try an ML or a C/E-class 4-matic rather than a 5 minute test drive :p

Drew_ML

Yes, the warning triangle will indeed blink if the traction control system is active. Turning ESP off resets the traction control system to a higher threshold and disables the throttle reduction system.

The car starts slowly (unless you punch the gas pedal) because of the nature of MB's long travel accelerator pedal and throttle tip-in. Many manufacturers have an aggressive tip-in to make it seem as if the car is fast as it lurches from a standstill.

Try this...find and empty stretch of road and floor the throttle pedal down until you feel a "click". I assure you that the car is plenty quick! 0-60mph times of the C320 4-matic are listed, by MB's conserative estimates, at 6.8 seconds. Note that the 4-matic system only weighs a mere 100 lbs.

Drew_ML

That's not a problem at all. I've had to do this every winter, including this winter with no issues. If you are stuck and need to build-up momentum, use the off-switch to disable throttle reduction. The brakes are only applied intermittently and do not clamp down the vehicle to prevent it from moving. They are only applied to equalise wheel rotation rates on each side of the vehicle.

The traction control system intervenes much less frequently with the 4-matic equipped cars simply because of the extra traction provided by the second pair of drive wheels.

Mike T.

You were there with him, were you Drew? He expressed surprise that the car did not launch well on a loose surface and I can come to no other conclusion than the 4ETS activated, thus preventing the wheelspin (and rapid acceleration) he expected. This car will do 0-100 km/h in about 7 seconds as you note, so either he's running on 4 cylinders or 4ETS has reared its head. Frankly, I suspect the latter. The throttle tip-in issue would be apparent on dry road too and this owner was evidently expecting better acceleration rates on the loose surface, as I read his posting. Cars with high performance-oriented 4WD systems will not give you that same effect, rest assurred.

Weak viscous couplings? Come on Drew, you can surely do better than that...

5 minute test drive? Nah, why bother? I don't want/need a 4WD car anyway. No one on the West Coast does. You seem to think that 4Matic driving is like some sort of religious experience, if only you could get me behind the wheel Well, stop proselytizing, it's getting annoying :p

I accept that 4Matic is perfectly fine for average driving conditions, probably the 85th percentile of drivers. But I also accept that there are far more appropriate traction control systems for high performance 4WD cars, which would comprehensively lay waste to a 4Matic car in low traction/loose surface conditions where acceleration and outright speed are paramount, all other things being equal.

I'm still waiting for that winter West Kootenay road challenge I wrote about last time this topic came up. Tell you what. I'll make it even easier for you. I'll use my 405, which is slow, FWD, has 285,000 km, no traction control system, but it'll have 4 snowies on it. Remember you said that your 4Matic would not need snow tires. Let me know when you're ready

Jens C320

Thanks for all the input...I noticed something disturbing today...I met up with some friends from my Focus car club (I was going to take the Focus, but it is in the shop for a while). We went for a drive and I could not keep up (acceleration) with a 2.0L I-4 130HP (only mod he has is an intake system). He was pulling on me all the way to about 60mph, then slowly did I start getting closer to him...he had at least 2 car lenghts on me to 60mph, and rest assured I had the pedal all the way pushed down (past the click, for the kickdown). I am going to mention it to the dealer at the next service...Even from a stop sign with sand all over the place the wheels did not spin, the ESP light did not come on and I sure didn't feel the brakes being applied to the wheels. The transmission still seems odd to me, sometimes the 4th to 5th gear shift seems like someone pushed the car from behind.

Mike T.

Either Mercedes' "conservative" acceleration times are optimistic or the Ford had a nitrous injection system

Seriously, time the car from 0-62.1 MPH and see if it's massively over what it should be - which is 8.3 seconds according to the international M-B website. You do have a station wagon, right?

Mind you, is the engine broken in? If the car is a lot slower than 9 seconds to 100 km/h on dry pavement, your engine might not be broken in, or it may not be running properly.

With an official 0-100 time of 8.3 seconds, lots of cars will be as fast or faster than your C 320 wagon 4Matic. Even cheap ones like Fords and Hondas Perhaps even a 130 HP Focus. I'd not be surprised if it could run with the 320 4Matic to 100 km/h...

Let us know, good luck.

Jens C320

Well, the Focus did not have a Nitrous kit, only an Intake (I am sure he would like one though ). I just checked both the Mercedes and Ford website...according to both, the Mercedes should do 0-100km/h in 8.3sec and the Focus in 9.3. The engine has 2000 miles on it and this was the first time I went flat out for an extended time period, so it had about 2000 miles of easy driving to break in. Even if it wasn't broken in, I can't understand why the Focus would get a 2 car lead on me, it wasn't until about 90mph that we pulled even...I'll try to get some various acceleration times and then post them here.

CRB

I think that if winning drag races is a concern of yours then you may have bought the wrong car. I assume that the Focus is a manual tranny and this may well be a race that your car will never win. May I suggest you race him 50-80 mph, I think that is a race that you will win.

Jens C320

Actually, drag racing is not a concern of mine. I am more concerned that there is a problem with my car since it seems to have poor overall performance. However, the "drag" race with the Focus yesterday seems to illustrate that there is something wrong with my C320 since it should be faster, and 2 car lengths would mean that I was probably running close to 10 sec from 0-60. If I wanted a drag racing car I would have bough the C32 which would have been only $5000 more. I'll see what the dealer says on Wednesday, when I bring the car in.