petercrase

MB declined to buy back my kompressor coupe, even though it has a couple of problems they can't fix. I contend I didn't get what I paid for, they contend the problems aren't serious enough to justify a buy back. The manual seats, when pulled forward enough for my wife (she's 5'5" tall) to drive the car and operate the clutch, inerfere with the carpet mats, pulling them up and off their mounting, turning them over and gouging out the backing. She won't drive the car as a result. The rear hatch, when closed, has enough give in the latch and rubber seals to allow the hatch edges to hit the body opening. My local dealer has tried several times to fix, nothing is succesful, for either problem. What criteria does the lemon law require in order to be successful. Thanks, Peter

rskinner

Try this:

http://www.lemonlaw.bbb.org/ca.html

Buellwinkle

If you have an MB then you likely qualify for a lemon law buyback since they aren't very reliable. But in CA you need to bring it in 4 times for the same exact problem within 18 months or be out of service for more than 30 days. The 4 problems must be documented as being the same and you must have the copies of the repair orders with the same exact description. Have 100 items fixed 3 times each does not qualify. The item being repaired has to significantly impact it's safety, use or value. If it's safety related the issue can be taken to court with just 1 or 2 repair attempts. Also with MB you need an attorney, it's not optional like with other marques. Any good lemon law attorney will only take your case if they are positive they will win as they take it on contingency with a minor retainer fee, usually about $500. I've done 2 lemon cases, 1 with MB and 1 with Infiniti and won both. Expect this to last a few months, Infiniti took 6 months. Also expect to compensate the manufacturer for miles driven until the first occurance of the problem.

Really, it's an MB, didn't you research what you were getting yourself into. These are far from what anyone would call reliable. Just check JD Power 5 year depenability survey, their last place finish speaks for itself.

KWiK

Call a lemon law attorney, they will tell you if you have a case.

I used William R. McGee for my lemon case with MB. I won, got my money back.

From your description I would say you don't have a lemon case but I'm not the lawyer.

Jim Banville

The way you spin something into what is a really a lie in the context of this post is amazing. You ought to be in politics! Please post reliability ratings for the C class. Otherwise your general comments about MB reliability are worthless

.elijah.

I've already had my rear right window fixed for not coming up on teh automatic function and then i took it back just recently because it was making some wierd noise when closing so they just decided to change the entire motor. Now, its acting up again!!! Kind of frustrating. So am I just one nitch behind 4? Or does this even count?!

Other than that, i have about 34K miles on my 2002 C240 (got it 1/20/2002) and its driving alright besides the very low 18-21 mpg. I'm happy! Ready to start doing some things to it!

Buellwinkle

elijah, it all depends of if judge had empathy for your situation and how he interprets the law at that moment. I've had a slam shut case work against me recently but luckily overturned in an appeal. The lemon law attorney can best evaluate your chances.

Jim, what ratings do you want? Go to www.jdpower.com and read it for yourself. The following marques needed less than average amount of repairs during the first 5 years of ownership....

1. Lexus
2. Infiniti
3. Acura
4. Honda
5. Toyota
6. Porche
7. Buick
8. Cadillac
9. Jaguar
10. BMW
11. Lincoln
12. Mercury
13. Subaru
14. Nissan
15. Mazda

Then they list the losers, the worst of the worst in alphabetical order to spare marques like MB total embarassment. But be assured, MB is in like company along with all the Korean manufacturers, Suzuki, Chevy, Isuzu and some defunct brands like Plymouth and Oldsmobile, mostly brands I generally avoid. Don't know why I keep coming back to MB, love those free car washes and cookies!

nboyd

Peter, are these problems specific to you car or are they design related and inherrent to the model?

Do you have a problem with your chair and rails that does not exist on identical cars of the same model and year?

If so you may have a case but if the problem is with all cars of your model then a court will refuse your plea since test driving the car would have highlighted the issue before purchase.

Buellwinkle, I have gone through the JD Power Survey and I see no evidence to substantiate you claim that specifically the C-Class is problematic. I am of the understanding that both the A-Class and ML have had massive implications for MB and their ratings.

Living in Berkeley I see more old MBs than any other car, I expect my MB will be around a lot longer than any Toyota or Honda.

nboyd

While on the subject of reliability, can anyone recommend a good source for cars built in the 90s reliability figures?

mctwin2kman

A floor mat cought under the seat and a misaligned rear hatch do not a lemon make in any state. If you have power seats I suggest raising the seat a bit. My wife puts the seat all the way up as far as it goes and the seat does not interfere with the matt. It did not interfere when I had winter matts on top of the carpet ones either. I think your dealer is a moron if they can not align the lid and fix a floor matt. I would re-consider that dealer choice and find a new one. My matts with both down at the same time interfere with my clutch so I took out the carpeted on on the driver side. As for the the hatch any good body shop should be able to align it and then send the bill to your dealer or MBUSA. The mats I do not know what to tell you except check under the seat and see what is binding it and point it out to be fixed. Even with my seat all the way down and moved forward it does not hit so they maybe be something in the way, granted I have power seats the track system should be somewhat the same as yours. I got power seats because this is a luxury car and I have never seen one without them. I am still wondering why a power driver seat is not stanard on these. But I am sure no lawyer would pursue a lemon law case as this is not a saftey hazard, the floor mat could be removed and the hatch will not fly off.

Buellwinkle

I never said C-Class was any more problematic than any other MB, I said all MB's are problematic and the JD power survey is in the U.S. so it doesn't include the A-Class.

BTW, check outside that college town and go around the east bay, plenty of classic cars in No Cal and very few of them aren't American. Does that mean because there are loads of old mustangs around that it's proof that new ones are more reliable. Well you are correct, my Mustangs have been as close to perfect reliability-wise and that's why Mustang is singled out by JD Power as tops in it's class eventhough Ford didn't make it. BTW, so is the MB SLK. It still surprises me that the people of Berkley would drive old MBs, around UCI they all drive Fast and Furious replicas.

nboyd

I find your love affair with Ford very suprising since Ford are ranked as one of the least reliable car makers in the US. I sold my Ford because of it's reliability problems and went with the better build quality of an MB, I read that in JD Power when comparing a C-Class to Toyota, Honda and Ford.

Consumer Reports class the ML as one of the most unrealiable cars of the last 10 years. It is well reported on this list that the ML has been hacking away at the reliability ratings for MB.

The MBs I see in Berkeley are not the well maintained classics, but the beat up dirty workman like cars. My observations do not correlate with your statement that their are "loads of old mustangs around". Classic cars are in a different bracket to A-B cars, more money is required to restore or maintain to the "classic car" level.

MB has a reputation for durable long lasting cars, the MB I bought is in a totally class to the Ford I bought.

nboyd

http://autos.msn.com/home/reliabilit....aspx?src=URES

This report is using information from the JD Power survey.

After checkign the MB C-Class I noted that all categories have the highest ranking available. Compare that to the Mustang or any other car that you recommend.

Nathan

Jim Banville

Look guys, Buellwinkle lumps all MB's together when it comes to reliability. Sure it makes no sense, but he can't grasp that one poor new design can bring an entire brand down on a survey. JD Power admits that this was the primary reason MB ranked so low, but what do they know compared to Buellwinkle I've challenged Buellwinkle numerous times to provide his less-than-average rankings for the C class, but he never does. Hmm?
And getting back on topic, I agree, a mis-fitting floor mat and hatch lid are NOT a lemon make. If your dealer can't fix it, try another.

Buellwinkle

Let see, JD Power says MB bad, Microsoft says MB good. If I crashed as many times as most Microsoft products I would be not only dead but unrecognizeable. So I'll concede there, a 98 C-Class in general are more reliable than Window 98. You can burry you head in the sand if you want, the JD Powers numbers have always been too kind to MB until this year. They do rank individual models but MB only appears in the Premium Sport Car catagory for the SLK. The Mustang also appears as a best individual model despite Fords shortcomings. I have had 4 MBs and 5 Mustangs. So far the score is 5 Ford, Mercedes 0 for reliable cars.

BTW, The ''98 Hundai Elantra gets the same prestigous rating as the c-class. I'm now very impressed with this rating system.

CRB

Buellwinkle is correct on Mercedes dropping down to below average on Power's long-term reliability ratings. This survey was for 1998 model year vehicles and does include the first year of M-class production. I did a little digging and found the rankings for the below average vehicles (numbers listed are problems per 100 vehicles):

Although J. D. Power does not release scores for companies below the average, Automotive News — the industry's weekly newspaper — published the entire survey list, citing sources.
According to Automotive News these are the automakers that fell below the industry average of 355 problems per 100 vehicles: Mercedes-Benz (364), Ford (364), Saturn (365), Saab (373), Oldsmobile (376), Pontiac (389), Audi (392), Chrysler (393), Chevrolet (393), Volvo (402), Suzuki (405), Dodge (410), GMC (415), Plymouth (422), Jeep (449), Hyundai (449) Mitsubishi (461), Volkswagen (489), Isuzu (500), Land Rover (585) and Kia (709).

My source was this Washington Post story about JD Power survey. BTW. take a look af the most common problems. Whiners !!!

So as you can see Buellwinkle's statement that M-B is "at the bottom" is patently false. In fact, it appears that his beloved Ford is in a dead heat with M-B slightly below average. And recall that this includes M-class and not the Ford Focus.

That this particular JD Power survey isn't C-class specific is a specious point because the W203 platform didn't debut until years after the cars surveyed were built. I have heard rumors that both the C-class and VW's Passat will removed from Consumer Reports recommended list soon due to reliability problems. And, if true, this would be from data accrued from surveyed 2001 and 2002 owners.

Cost cutting continues at Mercedes Benz and it will be interesting to see how the current offerings stack up in Power's 2008 questionaires.

On the observation that old Benzos seem to be everywhere:

Rich people buy expensive cars and also tend to get maintenance done because they can afford it. Moreover, old Benz models don't necessarily reflect the quality of the marques current offering. Alas, they really don't build them like they used to.

On the thread starting lemon question:

If you can sell a bunching floor mat and unsealed hatch as a lemon law case...well I hear that there is an ice shortage in Antartica.

Outland

Actually...depending on your own views on global warming, there actually is an ice shortage - at both poles.

No ice shortage around here...roads were covered in it this morning...ESP light was flashing like mad!

galaxygrrl

Peter,

Your email bounced. I used the same lawyer as Kwik.

You might have a case, just check with a laywer.

Sorry you're having problems.

Good luck

Beth

Buellwinkle

What are you driving now Beth?

Buellwinkle

I didn't know the ranking on the bottom feeders because they weren't posted on the JD Power website, thanks for looking that up. But you have to understand that Ford caters to the masses, they make some cars that they shouldn't be proud of that have problems like the Focus. MB on the other hand touts its quality and prestige. It's their trademark. To say that my bottom of the line MB that costs as much as a top of the line Ford sedan is equal in quality and workmanship is a slam on MB and a big compliment to Ford. People expect more from a premium brand, look at Ford's premium brand, Jaguar, they seem to be doing a lot better than MB. At least compare apples to apples.

galaxygrrl

Still driving the coupe. MB finally fixed everything on the 8th try. Go figure. Seems many people were having my seatbelt problem and they made a special part for the seat belt. Once it was put in, the seat belt was fine.

Beth

mctwin2kman

Buell,

MB is only top of the line and luxury in the USA and Canada, everywhere else in the world they are taxis as well. Now I am sure that MB does not build the US ones any differently that the Euro ones so the quality is going to be the same all around for all vehicles. Remember that in Europe that there are cheaper models than our little baby Benz. We may have to bottom of the line here, but we do not have the bottom of the line Benz. Also mine was quite pricey with all my options and comes out more than the bas C240 and a pretty nicely equiped C230 Sedan. So in no means was the sticker the bottom of the line.

Jamie

Buellwinkle

I hear you but the JD Power survey applies to the U.S. They may have a European version of the survey but it doesn't concern me. I don't know what part of Europe you were in but in Holland, Germany, Luxemburg I saw mostly Volvo taxis, not MB. The MB's at a German dealer were all pretty well equiped and priced comperably to the U.S. In the UK the coupes mainly come from S. Africa. In the U.S. where the survey is done a typical bottom of the line C-Class probably averages in the low 30's. Ford doesn't have many cars in that price range unless it's something special like a Cobra or T-Bird, certainly their top of the line. So to me, comparing a bottom of the line Ford Focus to a bottom of the line C-Class would be comperable in realiability and I would agree with the survey on that. The Mustang being more upscale than the Focus compares more with the SLK and coincidently both are more reliable according to this survey.

nboyd

Buellwinkle, I find that your analogy of Microsoft illustrates how you use are unable to seperate a product.

As a Systems Manager I can tell you that the uptime of our Microsoft systems far exceeds our Mac, Novell, PBX, Unix and Linux systems.

I can also tell you my helpdesk team will testify that windows XP and 2000 desktop computers are extremeley reliable and secure. Last year Windows 2000 had less bugs and exploits than the highest used Linux OS red Hat. Now consider how many more copies of Windows out?

Now of course the Windows 9x range is poor in comparison to NT based machines but even compared to Mac a Windows 9x fully updated is much more reliable.

As you have demostrated with the ML brush, you are unable to seperate a product from a brand.

Nathan

Buellwinkle

I just got this story from someone, talk about timing (BTW: I'm responding from my Linux PC).

For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on.

At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon".

In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable,
five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all
be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation" warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10..You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.