zimmer26

You're right the sedan does spec out 65 lbs lighter, does anyone know why btw because that makes no sense to me. My 2.3L coupe has plenty of low end torque.

Yeah, I lump the Evo in the same category with the Neon though, yes its sure faster and handles worlds better but its still a car I'd be embarrassed to own. I mean its an ugly *** car to begin with, add rice and now you've got 100% sharp cheddar cheese on your hands. If performance was the only thing I cared about I'd spend a few extra Gs and get the STi instead. Its got more displacement, horsepower, and most of low end torque. Lose the gold wheels and the ridiculous (functional or not) spoiler and the cheese meter returns to liveable levels and then you've got something. Having said that I think the Volvo S60R will be much more car for my money and worth the extra scratch for loads of added stealth, class, quality, and feature content.

czachari

Anyway, the S60R is nice but like all Volvos, overpriced.
It's supposed to start at 40 large. That's alot for a car whose cheapest version starts in the mid 20s. Even the current most expensive S60 runs in the mid 30s which is a lot.

Have you sat in an S60? Nice interior but the doors clank like an american car when you shut them, they don't have that nice germanic thud we're all used to.

As far as the ricing of the new crop of pocket rockets, it seems that there must be a market for them. When I was younger and was looking for bargains when it came to performance I always looked at somewhat stealthy cars. The M Coupe was the only exception but that car was not ricey, just plain weird looking to most people.

CZ

zimmer26

Not really- $36,875 (to start) but you really don't need to add much. Which is still a lot of money, granted but what else will perform as well and have all of the features, quality and safety for less these days? Keep in mind that it will have one of the most sophisticated adaptable suspension systems around, all wheel drive practicality, all world safety scores, etc.

The G35 comes close, and is a nice car for the cash but lacks the level of quality and sophistication found in the Volvo. The 330xi will far overshoot the price range and still won't match the performance. The new S4 will definitely match it but will start @45k. Let me know if I missed any other contenders.

There's been some debate about the weight of the coupes, I'd say that you're right. Motor trend quoted a while back that the roof only adds 45 lbs but I'd guess more which is part of the reason why I don't have one.

CarlssonPower

G35 coupe for me.

FrankW

weird logic, what are you saying. The cheapest model in the C-class line up will probably starts around $20k if they were sold in the US. (C180 coupe) And the C32 sports coupe is what?? three times that price or more.

if you are talking abou the US market, the C230k sportscoupe starts at $25k, not much different from that of the S60.

if your logic is correct, then that would make every top of the line model in every brand overpriced. i.e. S350 compare to the S600, BMW 520 compare to the M5, A6 1.8T compare to the RS6, and so on.

u want to know what's overpriced?? Caddy Escalade...$30k truck with Caddy badge selling for $55k. Every interior layout and shape is the same as the cheaper version Yukon, now that's overpriced.

C230KRS

everything is overpriced. what you're buying is the name. if we really valued quality, we'd all be driving the same car, however i kno we all have different ideas of quality so it doesnt really matter.

C230K

I will stay with the C320 Coupe, no rice for me, been there done that. "Nice interior but the doors clank like an american car when you shut them, they don't have that nice germanic thud we're all used to." on the S60. My S60 sounds just like the coupe and for a large sedan, my first choice, good price and value for me.

HigHal320

G35 coupe for me, comfy seats

zimmer26

Its great to hear that you're still very positive about your 320 coupe. I'd still really like to get a full report on how it compares to your 230 though- so get on that! I've yet to find one with the 6 speed (not that I've looked so hard) but it seems like 320 coupes are far less prevalent than 230s and manuals in the 320s are far less common than autos so its kinda tough. I'm not too serious about the upgrade at this point because of the depreciation loss on the 230. I was going to drive an auto when I had mine in for service but I ended up not having enough time to do it. So spill it, all the things that are different, better, worse(I doubt that) etc, please tell. I've been waiting for it to show its face in a mag but instead I get to read infinite articles on 60k+ sedans which I don't mind as much as reading Evo Vs. STi for the umpteenth damn time!

czachari

If there was a C180 for $25K in the US then it would seem obscene to charge 50 large for the AMG version just because it has a bigger engine, brakes and stiffer suspension. My C230K sedan optioned with everything MSRPd at $35K so the difference between that and the AMG does not look so huge.

Of course all the premium SUVs are overpriced also since they are basically rebadged trucks with higher option content. Of course, most of us consumers fall for that and we pay the large differentials for what we perceive to be a better car.



Later....


CZ

zimmer26

CZ,
So your 1.8L 189hp Merc sedan stickered for 35k and you're telling me that 37-40 (base/optioned) is bad for a suped up all wheel drive 300 hp Volvo sedan? Check it out on volvocars.com and tell me it doesn't look sweet (at least on paper.) I think if the suspension lives up to the car's sporting intentions it'll be a pretty damn nice package for less than 40k but that's just me. And I did get a chance to sit in it at the car show and I was most impressed with the interior, gages are sweet. I do wonder how good the manual tranny will be, but other than that I'd say they've got a winner. BTW- still waiting for your answer on what sub 40k cars are better for the $.

FrankW

you guys can go download the S60R video if you haven't seen it from this thread.

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=4

C230K

Thanks for the tread, need more money, have driven Volvo's for years and they now come out with a real toy.
TKS
Tom

czachari

I did not pay $35K for my C230K and I wouldn't pay $40K for the S60R either. I think the S60R is a nice car but it still is an S60. Its engine is probably pushed to its limits so the upgrade potential is probably limited and such a car will depreciate a lot. As far as what car is better, I don't know I just don't think that paying the premium for that performance delta is worth. I am sure the S60 T5 is probably pretty close in performance to the S60R. Maybe a 1 year old M3 will fit the bill.


CZ

FrankW

CZ, dude, go download that S60R video, man.

S60R to the S60 T5 is like M3 to the 330Ci, C32 AMG to the C320, etc. you get the idea.

if you watched the video, you'll see that it is much more of a sports car than the T5 will ever be. Even 330i PP probably can't touch it.

C230K

Frank you hit the nail on the head. czachari must not like the Volvo. My S60 2.4T Volvo cost the same as the C230 Sedan. czachari the Volvo has better seats, sound system and is a lot quicker than you sedan, only complaint, not much on front wheel drive. The Volvo engine was designed by Porsche and has horse power to spare. Think Volvo has also be short changed.

pocholin

IMO G35 is better than C230k.
Bigger, more power, finer lines, very nice interior, I don't know why people say it feels cheap.

Outland

Haven't been in one, have you. The interior is dangerously close to a mid 80's Pontiac in terms of quality of construction, and materials used. This car has a lot of content, they had to cut corners somewhere. The interior is one of them, the noise levels and ride are another. Using the ubiquitous Nissan VQ motor and the Altima platform also kept the price down.

I'll grant that its bigger, and has more power than a C230(sedan), but I don't think the Coupe G35 has a bigger interior. And as far as styling goes, both Coupe and Sedan are a bit generic Japan, INC. styling. The Coupe less so, but I can't say its lines are attractive- to me anyway.

pocholin

Yes I have been inside one, in fact I test drove it, nice, quiet, except under heavy acceleration, feels strong, and quality doesn't seem to be a problem IMO.
Standarization is a modern thing, look at Benz and Chrysler, now they are sharing engined between name brands, SLK230 and Crossfire, so I don't see a problem with the Altima using a detuned version of the G35 engine.

speedfrk

The G35 and 350Z are built on the RWD Skyline platform, not the FWD Altima platform. The seats are way more comfortable than a C230, and the engine is voted year after year as one of the best engines made. It rides about the same as my coupe did after I put on the sway bars, but still handled better. Definately noisier, but not significantly. The engine sounds great compared to the 4 cyl MB engine, and I must agree that the center console and steering wheel look like they were lifted straight out of a 82 280Z...a bit dated looking. My friends have one, so we have done side by side comparisons with my ex-coupe. Styling is so subjective, it is just a matter of what you like. Reliability is statistical, and Infiniti kills MB in that area.

FrankW

there you go, i was just about to say that. except that the 350Z is actually based on the shorter version of the Skyline/G35 platform. The G35 IS the Skyline, which it's platform is use for other models (350Z, FX45, Murano)

nevide

just go grab some infiniti and get outta here.

czachari

I went out and test drove everything in the 25-35K range. For my ~31K the C230 was the best thing out there. Every car is a compromise, the question is which features are you willing to compromise on? The G35 was very nice but the engine sounded like a truck when pushed and the auto killed the acceleration, the car did not "feel" fast to me. Also, some plastic details rubbed me the wrong, maybe I was too critical of the car since it's not German. I came very close to buying the car...

The S60, also very nice. Things I disliked, FWD, lack of Xenons and the door closing sound . Not the typical germanic thud.

The A4, was excellent all around but only a 5-speed and no bi-xenons.

BMW, I've owned a few, I wanted a change so I did not even consider them.

Saab 9-3. All around a great package for the LOW LOW price but VERY cheap interior and FWD killed it, plus I would have had to wait for a stick they had none available for a while.


p.s. My gripes with the Benz is the way they equip them. I'd rather get the C1 package instead of the stupid C2. C1 is more usefull. Vrtually all 6-speeds come with C2 but no C1.

Outland

Its the other way around. The Z platform underpinned the Skyline, and the G35...IIRC, the G35 was originally envisioned to be a 2+2 version of the Z, as per Z car tradition...the decision was made early on to give the 4 seat version to Infinity. Also, if i'm not mistaken, there's plenty of Altima mechanicals in there, suspension bits, etc. Not bad hardware, mind you. But its mainstream stuff.

BTW, The Murano is definately on the Altima platform, not the RWD variant. Don't know about the FX45, its one ugly truck.

Outland

Its loud, regardless if you have the pedal down or not. The lackluster interior quality and materials is mentioned in every review of recent Infinity and Nissan products. BTW, the Altima doesn't use a detuned G35 mill... the same VQ mill that's powered Maximas and Altimas for years got hotter tuning and better exhaust to make its extra 20-40HP. Its not a bad car, but you can't wish away its deficiencies simply because you prefer the stronger VQ motor.

Its not standardization, its called platform and component sharing...its an evolution of badge engineering.

The difference is, MB is moving premium content into its mainstream brand...Infinity is rebranding mainstream content as Premium...

I'm not saying this is bad, but it doesn't build a brand. The Brand is percieved as the expensive Nissan, or pricey toyota(lexus), or overprived Chevy(cadillac). Audi uses a similar strategy, and that's one reason its percieved as a lesser product than Benz or BMW. Honda hasn't quite figured it out yet, but seems to understand that folks would rather buy a less expensive MDX(pilot), than they would an overpriced Accord Coupe(CL- which, BTW, officially got the Ax thanks to dismal sales). Ford has totally botched it by making the X type almost entirely from Ford Mondeo parts....something that hasn't gone un-noticed.

GM has realized this, and they are moving Cadillac away from it by using independant platforms, unique motors, or introducing new platforms, technologies and engines on the premium brand first. The Crossfire uses the outgoing SLK platform, one that's due to be replaced in fall with an all new SLK based on the C/CLK platform. Its motor is also an older MB design, one that's already in the process of being replaced with '350' versions.