Has anyone PowerChipped their 1.8L C230K sedan? They claim 19HP with the 93 Oct.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
The doubling of the compressor discharge means much more heat developed, more than 100% more heat. Therefore the IC will have trouble cooling the air charge on anything near a hot day. Yesterday and today I went to work in the fog, 60 degrees and lots of power. It is 100 degrees no, the power is off maybe 20-25 HP!
An IC that removes more heat of compression will keep the HP nearly the same.
An IC that removes more heat of compression will keep the HP nearly the same.
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From: Stamford, CT
2003 C230
It seems that air-2-air IC is not the answer
To keep the car from losing power and optimizing airflow maybe we need an IC identical to stock but water cooled instead of air-cooled. Has anyone looked at that?
CZ
CZ
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
To keep the car from losing power and optimizing airflow maybe we need an IC identical to stock but water cooled instead of air-cooled. Has anyone looked at that?
This is a very good point. The C32 has a water cooled IC, half the work is where to mount the water cooling system, MB has already done this on the C32. Anyone have access to a C32 and can tell us or photo the MB parts used? Then we just but a water cooled IC and all the cooling system MB put in the C32. With ten times the heat transfer we could start some serious HP.
Just remember we still need larger inlet/outlet to the new water cooled IC, and we need to keep pressure drop as low as possible.
This is a very good point. The C32 has a water cooled IC, half the work is where to mount the water cooling system, MB has already done this on the C32. Anyone have access to a C32 and can tell us or photo the MB parts used? Then we just but a water cooled IC and all the cooling system MB put in the C32. With ten times the heat transfer we could start some serious HP.
Just remember we still need larger inlet/outlet to the new water cooled IC, and we need to keep pressure drop as low as possible.
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From: The blue white rock, third out.
2002 C230 Coupe(M111)
Re: Re: Re: Eason, isn't our boost level CPU_controlled?
Originally posted by DCXdynodog
There is approx. 6 lb-ft of torque gain by using 2 octane #'s higher (93 vs 91) fuel and the extra ignition advance which can be run with it if the engine is calibrated correctly to begin with.
6 lb-ft * 6000 rpm / 5252 rpm = 6.85 HP
There is approx. 6 lb-ft of torque gain by using 2 octane #'s higher (93 vs 91) fuel and the extra ignition advance which can be run with it if the engine is calibrated correctly to begin with.
6 lb-ft * 6000 rpm / 5252 rpm = 6.85 HP
Where does the 6lb-ft figure comefrom- what you see on the dyno? Or some formula?That solves wether the 'chip' just goes to stage 3 on the ron setting? They need to find another 12HP somewhere else.
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From: SF Bay Area
2002 C230 K
Originally posted by breastroker
This is a very good point. The C32 has a water cooled IC, half the work is where to mount the water cooling system, MB has already done this on the C32. Anyone have access to a C32 and can tell us or photo the MB parts used? Then we just but a water cooled IC and all the cooling system MB put in the C32. With ten times the heat transfer we could start some serious HP.
This is a very good point. The C32 has a water cooled IC, half the work is where to mount the water cooling system, MB has already done this on the C32. Anyone have access to a C32 and can tell us or photo the MB parts used? Then we just but a water cooled IC and all the cooling system MB put in the C32. With ten times the heat transfer we could start some serious HP.
Considering the specificity of this particular intercooler for an M113 V6 application, I think a different air-to-water intercooler will have to be considered.
Cheers, BT
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Why would you automatically assume that a water/air IC is better? Water/air IC's are much less effecient and the one used in the C32 has serious heat soak problems, worse than our cars by a long shot.
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Thank you trench,
Using the C32 stock parts with a water IC that fits where the #230K site could be done.
I envision the radiator 110/11 being mounted above the aluminum bumper rail and a new water cooled IC in the stock IC area.
The intercooler water pump M44 would be used, but I don't understand MB using the coolant tank 2 (shared with the engine radiator). That would mean the lowest water temp would be 180-200 degrees? I undersatnd the C32 compressor puts out 15 psi, but the engine would last a lot longer if the air after the IC were closer to 100 degrees.
Trench, is there a seperate chamber in the coolant tank?
Water can transfer ten times the energy of air, I just can't comprehend MB designing such a bad system
Using the C32 stock parts with a water IC that fits where the #230K site could be done.
I envision the radiator 110/11 being mounted above the aluminum bumper rail and a new water cooled IC in the stock IC area.
The intercooler water pump M44 would be used, but I don't understand MB using the coolant tank 2 (shared with the engine radiator). That would mean the lowest water temp would be 180-200 degrees? I undersatnd the C32 compressor puts out 15 psi, but the engine would last a lot longer if the air after the IC were closer to 100 degrees.
Trench, is there a seperate chamber in the coolant tank?
Water can transfer ten times the energy of air, I just can't comprehend MB designing such a bad system
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From: SF Bay Area
2002 C230 K
Originally posted by breastroker
Trench, is there a seperate chamber in the coolant tank?
Trench, is there a seperate chamber in the coolant tank?
Cheers, BT
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Trench,
So the water cooled IC on the C32 is just using the coolant tank as a surge vessel and pressure cap. The radiator - water IC and tubing are a seperate system. Too bad they didn't have a seperate coolant tank so that you could put ice in it.
So the water cooled IC on the C32 is just using the coolant tank as a surge vessel and pressure cap. The radiator - water IC and tubing are a seperate system. Too bad they didn't have a seperate coolant tank so that you could put ice in it.
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Buell,
I don't think the water to air intercooler from the C32 will work at all for our application. We need a IC with compressed air inlet and cooled air outlet at different sides to the radiator so our stock hoses or larger than stock hoses can connect to it.
The C32 water to air intercooler (110/2) is under the V6 intake manifold and is very small. It appears to have the inlet and outlet hoses next to each other.
I checked Superchargers Online, they have a complete water IC for $1350 at http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...ber=V8N301-180
Air-to-water intercoolers are exposed to heat soak and produce fluctuating air temperatures, which raises the question "What temperature do you tune for?" Icewater? Water alone? Cool water or after it has been heated during racing or rush hour? Tuning for a lower air temperature can cause detonation and engine damage, while tuning for a higher temperature can cause drivability problems. With current air-to-water intercooler systems, engine protection is greatly diminished, and tuning is difficult at best.
I don't think the water to air intercooler from the C32 will work at all for our application. We need a IC with compressed air inlet and cooled air outlet at different sides to the radiator so our stock hoses or larger than stock hoses can connect to it.
The C32 water to air intercooler (110/2) is under the V6 intake manifold and is very small. It appears to have the inlet and outlet hoses next to each other.
I checked Superchargers Online, they have a complete water IC for $1350 at http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...ber=V8N301-180
Air-to-water intercoolers are exposed to heat soak and produce fluctuating air temperatures, which raises the question "What temperature do you tune for?" Icewater? Water alone? Cool water or after it has been heated during racing or rush hour? Tuning for a lower air temperature can cause detonation and engine damage, while tuning for a higher temperature can cause drivability problems. With current air-to-water intercooler systems, engine protection is greatly diminished, and tuning is difficult at best.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Here is a great link to an Australian article on intercoolers and spray misters. Well written and informative.
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_05...ntArticle.html
This looks like where Buell got his spray mister info, a great place to visit.
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_05...ntArticle.html
This looks like where Buell got his spray mister info, a great place to visit.
Super Member
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
From Eaton:
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.
No mention of adding boost in any way. I do not know how powerchip can get more boost.
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.
No mention of adding boost in any way. I do not know how powerchip can get more boost.
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From: SF Bay Area
2002 C230 K
Originally posted by breastroker
No mention of adding boost in any way. I do not know how powerchip can get more boost.
No mention of adding boost in any way. I do not know how powerchip can get more boost.
Not particularly useful in my opinion.
Cheers, BT
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From: Laguna Niguel, CA
Originally posted by breastroker
This looks like where Buell got his spray mister info, a great place to visit.
This looks like where Buell got his spray mister info, a great place to visit.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 792
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Buell,
Document which wire goes to where. The labtronics is reasonably priced and should work. I still think you only need one mister and not two.
The water cooled IC is a greatr idea for a race car or one with higher boost, but our simple air cooler ICs have a lot of advantages. There must be a reason the WRXs keep air cooling even beyond 400HP!
All I want is 250 HP out of 1.8 liters, a nice wish.
Document which wire goes to where. The labtronics is reasonably priced and should work. I still think you only need one mister and not two.
The water cooled IC is a greatr idea for a race car or one with higher boost, but our simple air cooler ICs have a lot of advantages. There must be a reason the WRXs keep air cooling even beyond 400HP!
All I want is 250 HP out of 1.8 liters, a nice wish.
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Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Stamford, CT
2003 C230
I would be VERY happy with 240hp & 240lb/ft of torque
Out of our 1.8L cars. Especially with the weight savings that the 1.8L affords us. I wouldn't mind spending up to $2K to achieve that figure......
CZ
CZ
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From: MI
2003 C230K, 6 spd, Brilliant Silver, C-5, C-7, CD changer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Eason, isn't our boost level CPU_controlled?
Originally posted by Outland
Thanks! Where does the 6lb-ft figure comefrom- what you see on the dyno? Or some formula?
That solves wether the 'chip' just goes to stage 3 on the ron setting? They need to find another 12HP somewhere else.
Thanks!
Where does the 6lb-ft figure comefrom- what you see on the dyno? Or some formula?That solves wether the 'chip' just goes to stage 3 on the ron setting? They need to find another 12HP somewhere else.
(2.4 liter 215 HP)
We do cals for different fuels on the same engine many times.
It certainly could vary a little due to slight combustion chamber differences and such, but not enough to explain the extra 12 .
Now, I read a post where someone thinks they may take the rev limit up. That would change the boost and the torque increase at higher speed would yield even more HP (HP=T*RPM/5252) so maybe they get what they claim that way, but not from fuel/spark settings alone.
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From: Las Vegas
2003 C230 K , 2001 ML320
Actually I really want 20 more HP at 3000 RPM and 25 at 4000. That is right where I need it on the freeway.
I would bet the 1.8 engine supercharger is not maxed out (14,000 rpm) at engine max rpm. So a pulley of some kind will get more out of the M271 engine. We just have to get someone to make us a reliable pulley.
Anyone up to measuring supercharger movement vs. crankshaft?
Just mark each and turn the crank.
I would bet the 1.8 engine supercharger is not maxed out (14,000 rpm) at engine max rpm. So a pulley of some kind will get more out of the M271 engine. We just have to get someone to make us a reliable pulley.
Anyone up to measuring supercharger movement vs. crankshaft?
Just mark each and turn the crank.
