SoCal240/6

I don't have a C230, but this is an interesting thread. Are you saying that by changing the pulley size, you get 25% more hp?

Is there any downside to doing that? If not, why would MB not have done that? (and don't say its because the larger pulley would cost more, and MB had to use the smaller one as a cost saving measure!

goalie_k

Also the material is quite important. The absorsotion properties of Iron and AL are quite different. THe stock pulley is designed to absorb some of the vibration, an alloy pulley, would transfer the vibration to the crank and could lead to many serious problem. ...or even cause failure of the pulley and other drive pulleys and belts. (I too read Kleemanns response, so no need to respond) As you know from your engine building, vibration is not to be messed with. Did you see this link:

http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_...er_pulleys.htm

TimmyC230boy

Well then make it out of iron and be done with it. although I dont think it will make a big differce in terms of vibrations but, everyone has their opinions.

sdcaclint

Goalie,
you understand what i was saying. the harmonics play a very important role in the longevity of the engine. I also have another question that one of you may be able to help me with. how much room is there left to grow with the stock fuel system. i know there is some excess capacity in the injectors, but how much. by increasing the boost levels, the injectors are having to run at a higher duty cycle. at some point they are going to be running at 100%, and this is bad. it is bad at much lower duty cycles actually. so my question is how much of a power increase is possible before having to go into upgrading many other components. by the way i don't want to go there, i already have a racecar, i just want as spirited a street car as i can with out worrying.

TimmyC230boy

As Renntech, Kleemann, and many others have never said anything with regards to the fuel system. I wont not think that it would be a problem.

Buellwinkle

The pulley being made out of steel or aluminum is an interesting topic. I think that Kleemann is the only one out of many people making a pulley kit that want's to sell an alloy pulley. I can see that if you make the steel pulley larger it will get heavier and increase rotational mass and put a drag on the engine. While I don't see that a lighter pulley can add HP to the motor, it can reduced the parasitic HP loses that the accessories pullies and belt use up. So in theory a lighter set of pullies will give you more HP at the rear wheel. Now while the alloy pulley is lighter when stationary, it's actually heavier drag than stock to the motor because it has to spin the supercharger faster. This is just my speculation as I'm not a mechanical engineer and would not begin to design my own pulley.

As far as I've heard nobody, including Kleemann is currently selling an alloy pulley for our car. Evosport does make an alloy pulley set for BMW as well as others so it's nothing new, just not for our motor.

I think if we have someone make the pulley for us, we ask them to make the same exact pulley both ways and let you decide so theirs no argument, you get what you want. Ideally you want someone who's business is centered around making crankshaft pullies, alloy or steel, on many types of cars for many years so that you can draw on their knowledge to give you the best product. It's tough when you ask a tuner to design a crankshaft pulley when that's not their bag. Sure they understand what needs to be done but how can that be a substitute for a well seasoned pulley maker.

Mach430

Our BMW pulleys are Underdrive pulleys. They do not include a crank pulley. Instead, we replace the alternator, water pump, and power steering pulleys to reduce the excess power given to them, freeing up more from the motor. We are in the process of doing the same for the Mercedes. However, these pulley will not yield anywhere close to what the Kleeman pulley kit does. It's a completely different part of the car.

otoupalik

Pixmation,

You have just opened yourself up to serious legal issues by posting this in a public forum. The lawyer in me (yes, I have a law degree) cringed when I read what you wrote. You shoudl seriously think about all the laws you woudl be breaking by doing what you suggested!

_______________

Buellwinkle,

Evosport has nothing to do with the Kleemann pricing structure. We simply adhear to it as a good dealer would. For you to insinuate that we are fixing prices is ludacris.

Thanks

Brad

WyattEarp

1) He's not making a profit from the production of the pulley for him an his buddies.
2) There is no patent or legal protection on the design of the pulley.
3) There appears to be no malicious intent.
4) Please do elaborate, what laws?

leepolun

I am interested, Please let me know. Actually depending on price, but I am interested. sf_collector@yahoo.com

thanks

Buellwinkle

You are right, Evosport by itself can't fix prices. But after speaking to three different Kleemann dealers other than Evosport it is of my opinion that there is collusion amoung the dealers to maintain the list price. It's a tough one to prove even though 2 have admitted to it.

Now in Denmark things may be done differently but in the US, dealers getting together to set prices or a manufacturer threatening to pull dealer agreements if they don't adhere to a set price is a no-no.

Buellwinkle

I was just illustrating that other companies make alloy pullies of some kind, just not for MB. I used you as an example but in a good way. I know underdrive pullies don't produce anywhere near the power that one that overdrives the supercharger. Wouldn't the easiest thing to do to underdrive the accessories on the C230 at the same time as overdrive the supercharger be that the Kleemann pulley make a smaller diameter for the rear groove? This should not cost anything other than a new belt.

otoupalik

Actually, it is a very common practice. Yes, it is illegal for us to set prices through collusion, however, this is far from the case here.

In the real world, it is very common for a manufacturer to set a retail price and a "street" price. Once a dealer sells below that price, the manufacturer will commonly warn the dealer to stop it and if it continues, the manufacturer will simply stop selling to the dealer. This is NOT price fixing. This is a common business practice that breaks no laws or ethical boundaries. A manufacturer has a right to ensure that it's dealers are doing what is best for the product, product line and manufacturer. If they see that a dealer is not, it is their right to stop selling product to that dealer.

Does this make sense?

Let me net/net it for you. If I sell below retail that does not benefit Kleemann or the other dealers who are working hard to build a brand. That is something that is not acceptable to me, especially when I honestly feel that the Kleemann pricing offers the customer a great value for the dollar.

You must realize that if every dealer lowered pricing so that there was a 5% margin, there would be no one left to actually service the customer. I cannot run business on such slim margins and would not expect any good customer service based business to do the same.

I totally understand that everyone wants to save money. However, you also must realize at what cost you are saving the money. There is a tremendous amount or R&D and other overhead that goes into the Kleemann product to ensure that it is the best engineered product on the market. To attempt to copy that and 'pirate' it is especially troublesome and upsetting to me.

To try to manufacturer your own for yourself or retail is up to you. I can guarantee that you really have not evaluated the total costs involved. What about your time involved to do the drawings, make sure the work gets done correctly, test fitting the product to guarantee fit. What about insurance if the product creates damage to a customers car or worse yet, the customer themselves. What about the time and money to package the product with instructions, etc..... You should start to see the big picture here.

Hope this all helps!

Thanks

Brad

otoupalik

WyattEarp,

Here are some quick answers ....

1. The fact that he is copying or pirating the pulleys alone is enough. He is not going to give them away to other people is he?

2. How do you know?

3. Are you kidding? Of course there is malicious intent, he is trying to steal the design and the profit from Kleemann.

4. I am not a practicing attorney, and as such I do not want to give legal advice. However, these laws are easy to find on the web.

Thanks,

Brad

Buellwinkle

I sincerely hope that nobody is copying anyones product and I understand your concern about not jeopordizing your agreement with Kleemann. I would never want to interfere in anyones business regardless of my personal beliefs. Beside I did find one dealer willing to discount the Kleemann pulley, just working out the details now.

Now did Kleemann use a factory pulley as a basis for designing his product? If he did then in a sense he is copying that product. Also to copy a product wouldn't you have to be able to get it first? So If I come to market with a pulley first did Kleemann copy it? It's just a pulley, you can't patent/trademark/copyright a pulley. Funny, if I was going to go that route I would start off with a more expensive pulley like RennTech or Brabus. Actually my approach is very straight forward. Find the best high performance crankshaft pulley makers in the world, I have two that are willing, send them an MB factory pulley and get bids for the group. Now I can go to the best wheel maker, turbo shop, carpenters or find a local machine shop to do it but that would not be prudent thing to do at any cost. After all I want the best possible product for my car as most of us would.

I worked for a large oil company in their pricing department. I have been briefed over and over again on what's legal and what's not. What do you think gasoline would cost you if the oil company dictated the stations on what to charge? Did we control prices, you bet. We just did it in clever ways that were on the edge. We couldn't charge two gas stations in the same zone different prices but we can give them allowances for signs/advertising/paint. We couldn't ask the gas station across the street what they charge but we can pay Lundberg and OPIS for their daily pricing reports. Funny how free enterprise works. Is it really free!

So a clever dealer can charge full price for the Kleemann product and discount it at the same time by including free installation, rebates or other services. This won't violate the price agreement (legal or not) and allow a dealer to get some extra business that they would ordinarily have gotten. Some stores have been know to purposely scratch a product so they can sell it as a blemished product just to drop the price below what would make their suppliers cringe.

Scylas

hm...

otoupalik

Buellwinkle,

I hear what you are saying, and we do in our own prodcut lines allow for incentives. Why do you think we give free shipping on Supersprint?

However, the funny thing is that you likely just ruined your group deal by posting that you have a dealer that will discount as Kleemann does read this board!

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

I'm waiting for three things. The dealer is reviewing it with Kleemann to get their approval and I'm still working with another vendor to get group pricing and the Kleemann alloy pulley is not yet available according to some dealers. Any deal can fall apart at the last minute so I'm working on multiple deals so we will be covered. No matter what you may have heard, there will be a group deal, it might not make everyone one happy but I'll try.

Buellwinkle

You even offered to discount to the group by providing shipping incentives. See you are part of the group deal and you don't even know it!

Actually you are not the dealer I have received the best incetive from and I have received a few. That's not an insult but an invitation try harder. Are you willing to throw in undercoating and floor mats yet?

WyattEarp

Your answers are flawed.
1) You can copy just about anything you want as long as it is not copyrighted or patented. As a matter fact he is giving them away the group is sharing in the cost of the development. All money flows directly to the shop manufacturing the pulley. Here are his exact words:
2) The Kleemann pulley has neither of those protections. I know because it does not qualify as a patent or copyright under those laws.
3) You are saying he is trying to steal and profit. He is not stealing he bought an original one. He is not profiting from the endeavor since he already paid full price for the original part and no money ever flows in his direction. The others are not profiting either since each new pulley owner is making no money.
4) I would reasses your positions. Law is full of technicalities and with good reason. You may think that he is violating the Law. In some, albeit small, sense he may be violating the spirit of the law but not as far as I can tell the letter of the law. I don't know many judges that would side with the spirit of the law. If you could get a jury trial IMHO that would be even worse.

Scylas

why the hate Evosport?

otoupalik

Wyatt Earp,

As much as I would like to continue this, I will not. I tis theft palin and simple. For each Copy made, sold or given away - there is a theft of money from Kleemann. PERIOD. It does not matter where the money flows! If the shop is simply copying the pulley, then they are also in violation.

You cannot copy anyhting you want in the US and get away with it, there are legal protections for manufacturers.

You say that pulleys do nto fit into the patent or copywrite laws, well guess again! We have a patent application in for our BMW one's with all the papers to support it and we have seen two other pulley kits that have already recieved such patents.

Thanks

Brad

tommy

I hate to stand up for business, but of course this is stealing. So, Kleemann does all of the r&d on the pulley, and you can copy it for nothing, and it's not? Which definition of stealing is that?

And of course everyone who would be getting the copy pulley would be profiting from it as well, by the difference in the price of the pulley vs. one from Kleemann.

We can debate the fairness of the pricing on the Kleemann pulley, but I don't think that there is any sane reasoning that would enable you to do what pixmation says he would and call it ethically acceptable.

Buellwinkle

That's funny, someone actually filled out a patent application for an automotive pulley. I know where you can get a good crankshaft pulley with the damper for only $302. Any MB dealer. I wonder if the MB pulley has a patent on it. Maybe if not then someone with a patent can get rich off MB. When I get mine on Friday I let you all know what the patent number is if it exists. The concept of the pulley has been around for hundreds of years. The concept of a crankshaft pulley to drive accessories has been around for many years. The concept of an alloy pulley has been around for years. There may already be patents you are violating from a 100 years ago. The only thing I see that you are doing different than MB is the diameter and possibly the shape/design of the vent holes and your choice of materials. The shape can't vary too much, afterall it has to be round, it has to accept a standard belt and it has to fit in the space allowed and on the existing crankshaft. Can you patent a diameter? I know the diameters of several pullies so I guess I'll have to pick one in between to be legal, NOT!

Sounds like when Harley tried to sue Honda because they had a patent on the way a Harley motorcycle sounds. They didn't get very far but it made for interesting press.

WyattEarp

Brad,
Let's figure out what Kleemann did.
1) They bought a C-Coupe, maybe a few.
2) They took out the pulley and said lets make a bigger one to give it more boost. Let's make it out of alloy.
3) Let's have this baby machined to a high tolerance out of high quality materials.
4) Let's bolt on the new pulley and test for longevity (hopefully) and for the outcome of our experiment.
5) So far there is nothing new and novel that qualifies for patent protection.
6) If you have a patent on your pullies I hope it is due to engineering innovation and not to protect yourself from obsolescence. Since the patent is filed maybe you can tell us what new novel methods you have incorporated into your pulley that make it patent worthy. Or perhaps you can give me a patent number and I'll check the patent documents myself.
7) Patent Law has / is being abused as of late.