WyattEarp

Tommy,

What if Mercedes Benz decided to manufacture a bigger pulley and put it in the MY2003 vehicle. That certainly would make the Kleemann Pulley obsolete. Did Mercedes steal from Kleemann?

I know my argument appears to sidestep what you are saying, but I guess that is what I'm trying to show. Stealing as it is being referenced now is left up to interpretation. Webster defines stealing as taking another person's property. We may be depriving Kleemann from the sale of X units but we did not steal their property intellectual or otherwise.

You may be right about the sane part; however a sane man in an otherwise insane world would seem to be insane.

Scylas

PS: Evosport Im still waiting for my pre painted side lenses?

tommy

These discussions are starting to fall into the chicken and the egg thing, aren't they? You pose an interesting question. I guess that if MB took Kleemann's exact pulley dimensions, and basically told the factory, "Make me this!", and slapped it on the '03 models, then that would be bad. But, if they took the general idea of a larger pulley and made one from scratch, then they'd be fine. Of course, if they did what you'd expect, which would be to break down what Kleemann did and replicate something similar, but built to their own specs, then you're in a tough gray area, which is why I'm not a lawyer.

Buellwinkle

Gray area or Orion blue?

Since companies like RennTech, Vaeth, Wetteraur, H&S, Brabus, Carlson, Dynospot already make a larger crankshaft pulley for that motor then what's so special about anybody else that joins in? Since the size seems to be limited by the obstructions like the water pump pulley, performance differences between the group are likely marginal. Each vendor has their own little twist like RennTech gives you an ITG air filter and Wetteraur gives you a custom intake. It's all variations on the one theme, take the factory pulley and make it bigger. I though Kleemann was very clever to make a ring that bolts onto the factory pulley. It was easy to install and cost effective. I can see a patent on that since it appears unique from my perspective. Making a factory pulley larger or smaller, lighter or heavier does not seem clever at all. Sounds like they want to make the belt spin faster or slower, no magic in that. Even my kid understands that whenever she shifts gears on her bicycle. So that's what bothers me about all this discussion on people stealing other peoples ideas and designs. Who was the first company to put a different size crankshaft pulley on a car or on a C230K? Are they mad that Kleemann is stealing sales away from them? Probably, but that's our world and I'm proud to be part of it. The only downside is that if margins are cut too low nobody will want to do it. Luckily we are not there yet.

pixmation

It has been talking like I have already made copies of the pulley and selling it on the web or somewhere.

If the pulley is patented, it will have the patent number on it. I am not sure if you can patent a pulley by itself, maybe a "pulley kit" make up of some other components.

Originally suggested idea of a major brand was to avoid pointing fingers, maybe someone would like to steal profit from another brand not Kleeman.

In all businesses, everyone study their competitors' products. Then copy, improve, improvise, reinvent whatever you call it as far as law allowed, or people would emulate the idea and try to come up with something similar.

Maybe what we can do is to study the pulley kits that's on the market right now and see if we can come up with our own pulley at a lower cost. Hack, if it turn out to be a good pulley, we can slap a brand on it and start selling it at a lower price. Maybe we can patient it so nobody else and steal the profit from us.

tommy

Here's my main problem with the pullies themselves: who will verify that they're up to specs, or actually the specs themselves, and who will warranty the part itself.

Part of the price of the Kleemann kit (and all others) is the warranty expense against the pulley itself and against it affecting the overall engine.

For you bargain shoppers, that's got to count for something, right?

dj-po

And maybe you can concede to the fact that $900 is a fair price.


Buellwinkle, you are going to pay $302 for a pulley you ALREADY HAVE, but won't spend the extra few bucks for the R&D'd, finished, product? For what? To prove a point? Just to elbow Kleemann in the ribs "look, I told you so"?


You make no sense, passive-aggressive to no fault. ............ bloody amazing.


This may be my last post here at mbworld.org

I have had enough of this ****.



John.

WyattEarp

Tommy,

That is absolutely correct insofar as someone has to test the pulley and determine that it's harmonics are not going to tear to shreds the engine it is placed on.

Don't get me wrong I personally would only participate in the 'little plan' if I could be assured of extremely tight quality control on the manufacturing of the pulleys. I'd have to meet the chief of QC and review his plan.

I think the merit of the discussion had more to do with the legality of it and our friend Brad trying to scare the bejezus out of pixmation. I just don't like to see othe people going around telling others 'you can't do that'.

Buellwinkle

Exactly, that's why I'm looking for the best pulley that will satisfy the needs of the group. Nothing homemade, stamped out by a local machine shop or anything like that. You want something with at least as good a crendentials as Kleemann in the field of performance pullies and that's my goal. For example would you consider a pulley from Eaton, Jackson Racing, Saleen, Lingenfelter? They are not danish MB tuners but I think they can put out a good pulley if they want to and stand behind it. I'm not looking for cheap, just inexpensive. Just give me a week or two and I'll have something real to talk about. Also I'm working on deal on Kleemann kits but I don't think it's substantial enough to save you big dough but will be a good alternative for those that are Kleemann loyalists.

Sincerely,
Bargain Shopper

WyattEarp

You're taking this awful personal, unless of course you have a stake in Kleemann.

Buellwinkle

Look PO-man, I ordered the factory pulley at the request of one of the bidders to make sure everything fits. Sure I can give them my car for 2 weeks but I like my car. I was just making a point that if MB can make a pulley for $302 then what's the big deal, why pay more than that for an aftermarket pulley? Because it's 20% bigger, I'll pay $362 to make up for the 20% bigger. I'm not doing this for the money as I'm shelling out my money in R&D and not making a dime on it. I'm not in the pulley business. It's going to cost me more than $899 for a prototype & R&D. I'm doing it because someone told me I can't. I don't do "can't" very well.

Besides, it's not like your going to be part of the group buy anyway so what's the beef dude?

WyattEarp

Buellwinkle,

I've Gotta warn you. We've inadvertently ended up on the same side of the argument; however, collaborate with me at your own peril. I think I see Lynn leading the mob now. Well gotta run. :p :p :p

Buellwinkle

Heck, I've been lynched by these pulley posts before. Finally last week I got off my rear and started to do something about it. I gave up on trying to save any money and a large check came in from some side work I did last year. I went to try and buy a Kleemann pulley and found out that Evosports corporate office is someones house and that the alloy pulley is not available yet. Don't get me wrong, a lot of good, honest businesses are based out of people's homes. I just wish I new that before driving 10 miles. I went there because Brad said I can buy it in their HB shop or their SA office. I also made the wrong assumption that if Brad told me the will be in this week and dyno numbers are posted and everyone is talking about this pulley that it must be available. So I guess part of this frustration is my fault.

So I'm not questioning the integrity of Kleemann or Evosports. I'm just trying to work on a group deal that I didn't even start. 

otoupalik

Buellwinkle,

Yes, we have a temporary location out of my house until we move into a new 20,000 sq. ft. facility we are closing on. Our corporate office is actually in Las Vegas and our shop is in HB. I have never told anyone that they could get parts in Santa Ana. I also have never told anyone that the alloy pulleys are in stock. The ring-type are in transit. Yes, we have some of each, however, those were for testing purposes only, not for retail.

Sorry for creating any frustration or confusion on our part.

Thanks

Brad

Lynn

I don't lead mobs. I'm just a humble seller of rope.:p

greg230

how do they copy microprocessors??? they sure dont jsut make a direct copy!!! its called reverse engineering, you get one bunch of dorks to take the thing apart, and find out exactly what it does, and exactly what its made of. then you give that data to another bunch of dorks and they reproduce the same thing using only the starting and ending points of the original (its more complex, but i am tired)

there are some legal questions about it, but i plan to buy the actual pully kit. Maybe if you threw in matching floor mats @ cost then more people would gripe less.

And an unanswered question: why so much heat towards kleeman and evo sport??? doesnt renntech and brabus sell the same damn thing for 2x the price???

WyattEarp

I don't know I guess cause evosport's own Brad Otoupalik stepped up to the plate to defend the virtues of Kleemann and they got caught in the flames. I think it's called flaming momentum or something like that.

Xeon

Brad,

I orderered the Alloy pulley from Mach430 (working at evo sport too), but cancelled the order as it took too long. Then mach emailed me back, stating that kleemann have started shipping the alloy pulley!

What are you guys up to!?

otoupalik

LOL - thanks Greg for the defense. I don't take it personally. We are all just sharing points of view and information. As long as no one starts with the personal attacks, it is all good!

Thanks

Brad

otoupalik

Xeon,

The alloy pulleys haev been a real thorn in everyone's side as far as availability goes. We are tryting to get some. However, I think the ring type might be the way to go. Ben will let you know what is up!

Thanks

Brad

Buellwinkle

Hey it all started out as an innocent group buy on a pulley kit. How it blows up into this ball of mess is beyong me, with legal gibarish and threats and even people that don't even own C230 Coupes. Timmy wanted to help out a group of interested folks as well as himself by getting a better deal in a bulk buy. Timmy has decided to not pursue it so I stepped in. I know how it gets because I put together a killer group buy on Porterfield brake pads for $100. Of course a jealous greedy dealer gets mad and freaks out Porterfield forces my group buy to $135 (still cheap by the way and the initial group did pay only $100). It's too hostile. So when I put the group buy together next time I will not post the price or deal with anyone other than the initial group that wants it. Why, because if Brad finds out that another dealer will give us floormats with the pullies he'll raise a stink with Kleemann and none of us get anything. Sorry that it has to be covert but it's in the best interest of the group that really wants a good deal on a pulley and not the group that wants to defend their margins. Why is Renntech or Wetteraur not flamed, it's hard to argue with non participants. I offered Renntech and Wetteraur an option to participate in the group buy and they declined. BTW, Wetteraur does discount their pulley to MBWorld.com forum members. That's their perogative but it's our money.

When I have a firm commitment from a Kleemann dealer or another company that sells pullies I will let you know. If anyone has any information or contacts that can help this process you can e-mail me. It takes an effort to put this together so I hope the few that join in will appreciate the results.

otoupalik

Buellwinkle you kill me. Just as I say that this is all non-personal and the free sharing of info and ideas, you have to go and make it personal! Gotta love these forums!

If you don't like the way the industry is, I welcome you to join us and see for yourself how cut-throat and competitive this industry is and to realize that 15% margins don't go far!

Brad

dj-po

No, it is because of you.

I have been emailed by more than three people who have asked me why I waste my time replying to you. Some have even gone as far as to call you names, which is not necessary (as we are adults). These are people on the outside looking in, not even participants in the discussion/arguement. THEY have called you the antagonist in many of the cases. Don't play innocent, you like the attention (and I'm playing your little game). You have even gone as far as starting the same **** on benzsport.com (funny you started it w/ me). How about owning up to your own ****.

I know, this is way off the topic: "Group buy on Klemann pulleys", but it has turned into another Buellwinkle Superiority **** Fight.

I say what others think, but won't say. I can sleep at night knowing I am not you.


John Gribben.

Buellwinkle

That's why I would never get into the retail business, it's horrible. As a former business owner I feel your pain. Specially with the internet. I can find a deal on anything in minutes and undercut the brick and mortar store that convinced me to buy it the first place. My company is starting to put wireless high speed internet access for the average person using 1xRTT technology. Imaging then, you are shopping for a stereo in a store, you whip out your palm pilot or laptop and walla you found specs, reviews, forums and other informational source to help you decide what's best and then within seconds you have a competitive prices from 100 other businesses throughout the world offering the same product for hundreds less. A click here and there and 2 days later the product is delivered to your home. It's insane. Not only does it hurt the brick and mortar business but it creates havok on local goverments that depend on the sales tax revenue. I don't know what the answer is. I think your are on the right track having a service oriented business. I would come to you to install pullies/superchargers/no2 whatever and with tjhe skills of your people you command a good price and I would gladly pay that price. As a web retailer your just another dealer, a commodity. It's not right but in today's harsh global economy it's true. I just talked a friend that would never shop on the internet into doing it and now she probably won't go back to stores. I said you can get that DVD player you want with a few clicks of the mouse or you can go to Best Buy, deal with shopping center parking lots, deal with sales monkeys that push you into extended warranttees you don't want and then deal with the cashier and pay a premium for the whole experience.

So Brad, don't take it personal, you are not a Best Buy and please get the most you can for your service because its' great and sell those pullies! Personally I would be happy to pay $899 for a pulley from you even if a another dealer offered me $100 off. Brand name is secondary because if Vadim recomended it I would believe him. On the other hand if I can get a comparable pulley for $299 from a reputable company then I would have to think about it, wouldn't you?

WyattEarp

Woow,

A guy can't even get a wink in and the good stuff starts up.