avlis

http://www.patentdatabase.com/

BTW: Any experienced designer knows that the best place to get ideas for new designs or improving designs is to look at existing patents.

I'm no lawyer or patent expert but, you can't patent a dimension.

TimmyC230boy

Hey,
Well i've had a little change in plans, but I am still hoping to get a pulley kit. From who/where I still don't know. My dad thinks its a bad idea but I'm sure I can talk him into it. I'll keep my response striclty factual, with no opinions

Brandon @ Kleemann

Looks like this one is really heating up-

There is nothing patented about the pulleys as nothing about them is patentable. Everyones CL203 pulleys are the same dimension- as stated- the dim is determined by surrounding components. To the best of my knowledge KLEEMANN all alloy pulleys top all others in performance.

The question here seems to be ethics- to openly state that you would buy an existing product and copy it- however LEGAL this may be- puts a bad taste in peoples mouth because most people have a sense of fair play.

KLEEMANN does all the R&D, manufacturing and durability testing for you- how easy is that? We pay a fair wage to companies that specialize in these fields, get documented data, cover liabilty, and market our products. You will have to go through with the same thing or suffer the enduring cloud of "what if". If something were ever to go wrong with OUR products people rest assured that they have a 15 year company with an excellent reputation standing behind the products. This will not be the case with a knock off operation- or will you offer a warranty? Are you game? Have you done the calculations?

Let me get this straight- just so I know- You will go and buy and factory pulley, give it to a CNC shop (who will do all the drawings and programming for free Im sure) build and produce the pulleys and sell them at zero profit. Wow- you must have a ton of free time! You'll spend all that time and energy (easily twice what just buying a pulley for yourself would cost), amazing.

You make it seem like making a BUSINESS from tuning is a crime. Are you such a philanthropist that you and the company you work for will offer all this point and shoot shopping for free? Give me a break!

dj-po

Amen.......



When it started as "$900? That's way too fu*king expensive!!"

Now it is, "I'm gonna try and screw you out of business 'cause you said I can't, no matter what the cost"


KLEEMANN, i'm sorry you are an honest businessman, 'cause I would have shut this a-hole down a long time ago. I personally wouldn't sell him my product at twice the retail price. No one needs that kind of customer, NO ONE!!


John.

DtS

Calm down folks!

This is a forum for sharing info and experiences about MB-cars, not for throwing dirt at each other.

If someone want to make his own pulley, steering-wheel, intake-manifold or whatever, then let him/her do it! It doesn't make this person an idiot. And if someone want to buy a finished product, let it be a pulley, steering-wheel, intake manifold or whatever, from Kleemann, Brabus, AMG, WalMart,...,then let him/her do it. It doesn't make this person an idiot either.

Peace MB-brothers and sisters!

Buellwinkle

Kleemann,

I don't know why you take this personal. It wasn't me that said I would buy your pulley and copy it. I specifically said I'm not going to a machine shop. I going to another tuner that doesn't currently make a pulley for the Coupe and helping them do it. I'm not copying anyone's design as I have never bought, seen, smelled, heard or tasted any pulley kit from Kleemann or anyone else (except MB). Why am I helping them, because months ago I agreed to help them, months before you even had a complete pulley. I've just been lazy about getting what they needed. Just like you might receive help in testing your product from dealers, friends, the dyno shop, the MB dealer. I like this vendor because they produce a high quality product for many brands of automobiles and have a long history. They agreed on a very good price for this group buy once they are done which was my main goal. I have no idea what they would charge afterwards. You already have a good half dozen competitors for your product. I'm not here to argue which is best because obviously the one I'm working is best just like you think your product is best and Renntech thinks their product is best. Will they release an untested product, I doubt it, they have a reputation to uphold such as you. They have always warranteed their products so this should not be any different. They do currently market a line of alloy crankshaft pullies with steel sleeves for other cars so the needs of the C230 because of the way the front seal works is nothing new for them. Actually I asked them for an all steel pulley that looks identical to the factory pulley and they said alloy is the way to go but they also offer both on some products.

Brandon, you are doing a great job. Don't let your competition get the better of you. Thanks for participating on the forum and your insite has been invaluable. Sorry if I've said anything to offend you in the heat of a flame war. People on this forum, including myself sometimes say the oddest things that we would not say in public. I was just gathering information so that I can make an informed decision on which way to go just like everyone else.

Brandon @ Kleemann

Buellwinkle-

I understand that these forums can become a ring for the mudfest- no offense taken. This- or any other postings- will not dampen my enthusasim for participating on this board.

Mach430

The answer is simple... COGS (Cost of Good Sold).

I can guarantee you that Mercedes makes a profit off of their pulley, or any part for that matter. The reason why they can sell theirs cheaper is because they produce more which lowers the cost to produce each unit. Kleemann is not producing a pulley for every 230k produced, and thus his COGS is higher.

Buellwinkle

Great!

Buellwinkle

Factory pulley pictures for those that are interested.

Buellwinkle

Different view! (not as cool as the C-Convertible)

Buellwinkle

Last Pic and it's off to the laboratory!

Scylas

happy ending?

Lucas

And now all interested have to wait for a year to see if the Pulley
runs without problems, instead of just buy a finished kit with logos and all.

Buellwinkle

I know what you mean. I'm putting together a group buy with one of the Kleemann dealers but they are a month away from general release. Of course I heard that last month, and the month before. Personally I can't wait anymore so that's why I'm going with in a different direction.

So if you're dying to have a real pulley that is a "finished kit with logos and all" then get the RennTech, Wetteraur, Vaeth, Brabus or others that have been out for a while.

The company that's making the pulley already has alloy crankshaft pullies on the market. It should not take nearly as long to produce a pulley when you have the engineers and machinists and all the necessary equipment in house. My initial guess is that it will take a few weeks from initial design to a working tested pulley that's ready for limited release.

linh

Dts, is totally right about that !! I thanks "Buellwinkle" for such a great idea. Hey, they are out there to make money from us and so if someone can save all of us money, then we should be greatful to that person. Here's my e-mail, count me in....ldnguyen@qualcomm.com

gab

I think all MB tuners (Renntech, Brabus, Kleemann, Lorinser etc) charge a great profit for its products because the tuning market for MB is very very small compared to what BMW market, which is quite small compared to the Honda/Acura crowd. So in business sense it is impossible for those MB tuners to charge what those honda/acura tuners charge for their products. While the pulley kit is no rocket science, its quite hard to justify a business for those MB tuners to charge only $300. I must praise Kleemanns has very good quality products and VERY competitively priced against say Renntech which is quite expensive. So for those who wants the kleemann name in the product and dont care about the $900, get the Kleemann. Otherwise make your own pulley, which may turn out both will work as great as each other, who knows.

Buellwinkle

Exactly Gab, what I find is that if you go to a tuner of asian or american cars you get tremendous value and products that are better because they are tried and tested on thousands of cars and the costs are spread across thousands of cars. It's what I did with the Porterfield brake pads group buy. You can get the pads from a MB specialty house for way too much or you can save 30% and get them from a place that speclializes in asian cars. The product is exactly the same, the service is the same, only the price is different because of economy of scale. So my effort was to find a very successful tuner of asian and american cars and have them adapt their existing products to our cars. It's a tried and true product that's been around for many years. Putting it on our 4 banger is not that far of a stretch.

The thing to ask yourself is the market for MB tuning small because of the demand or because of the cost. In my personal case it's the cost and availability. So if RennTech charged $300 for it's pulley would they sell more? I think so. So it's a fine balance. You don't have to sell many $1,500 pullies to make money. We have an opportunity to further their exclusivity by pushing new players into our little world. Players that can easily tweak their already successful products to fit our cars. The variety of products I can get for a Mustang or a Honda Civic is outstanding. Let's see if we can all take time and call these places and acted surprised when they don't have parts for your MB or offer to help them test their product on your car. It will get them thinking. Not generic ricer parts but cams, rear gear sets, heads, intake manifolds, exhaust headers, fuel injectors, cat back exhausts all that stuff that just doesn't exist for our cars. The single biggest performance boost I've ever done was a swapping the rear gears on a Mustang. Wow, what a difference. It cost me around $350 installed. I would do that in a heart beat if aftermarket 3.73 or higher rear gears were available and it was reasonably priced.

Lucas

Buellwinkle

You are so right, you will really make all MB tuners thing twice in the future

Brandon @ Kleemann

Now dont take this as me saying you cant do this- but just follow along for a minute or two.

You hit the nail on the head with the economy of scale thought- millions of Mustangs sold per year- 10's of thousands of CL203's. The Mustang engine (non-modular) has been around in some form for alomst 30 years. As such time multiplied by units built and BOOM- a HUGE volume of units built.

As for your rear diff- this one is far more troublesome. Unlike an old Mustang which has all the technology of a 50 year old tractor (push rods? what are they?)- the MBZ is quite sophisticated. The ECU knows which rear ratio it was built with- a data table provides this info. Swap the gears out and suddenly the square wave signals from the wheel sensors dont match the data table, the ESP system flips completely and shuts itself off. Reprogramming the EGS controller is parmount to a rear diff change. VERY few people can do this for you- accordingly they charge for what they do.

Header, cams, pulleys and all that are simpler tasks for the motivated owner to outsource. At some point it comes down to simply paying for the R&D being done for you- thats what you are buying, not the part. Just as one expects to be paid for a day of working at XYZ company, tuners need to pay their employees and generate profit in order to develop the next genration of parts, pay staff etc.

If you think that the group you represent is a suddenly new threat to established tuners you think far too much of your efforts. No one will think twice about what you are doing, they will just carry on as if nothing were happening. Ultimately these tuning companies have far more resources than the average individual and can market their products to a larger audience- economy of scale again.

mdp c230k

It think Kleemann is right and his products are a very good value. Anyone who has been in any high end specialty bussiness knows how hard it is to make a profit even with very high profit margins. Look at high end audio speakers, parts cost is usually 20% of the sales price! You are paying for lots of time in R&D and someone elses brain power. Its worth it to those that know. Same with this product, its worth it to those that know. The large volume Japanese companies can pass the R&D to 10's of thousands of sales while Kleemann and the others can't. The R&D cost is the same but the per unit is very different. I wonder who else would work for the profit the suggest Kleemann should live on. Rock on Kleemann!

greg230

hmm, this thread is never gonna die, it might as well be sticky, and no one is really bringing anything new to the table.

Buellwinkle: do whatever you want with your car.... its all yours. If you dont like the way the aftermarket works, or kleeman in general, dont buy anything from them

Kleeman: the majority of us acknowledge that your product is a good value. It almost sells itself.... almost

every just stop bickering.....

AND SOMEONE TELL ME HOW MUCH THE KLEEMAN MAT SET IS!!!!

Buellwinkle

Greg, I'll make you Kleeman mats. As long as they don't say Kleemann I can't get sued!

young

kleemann told me over the phone that they were $110. but when i got the price list, it says $235. they only come in anthracite.

Mach430

The Kleemann Soft Velour Matt Set (Anthracite) is $235.00