C230K dyno before & after Kleeman pulley
04-11-2002, 10:12 PM
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C230 Kompressor
C230K dyno before & after Kleeman pulley
Here we are. We didn't quite get a 20% increase in power OR torque, but we did get sizeable increases in both areas, more noticeably in the torque area. Even before the car was put on the dyno, I knew there was a difference in performance. You could just feel it :p
1st, 2nd and 3rd all suck you into your seat now. The torque even has something to say in 4th, in a BIG way!!! Just slightly less pull in 4th as opposed to 1st to 3rd. 5th and 6th have slightly noticeable increases in torque, but nothing compared to lower gears.
As far as the $899 for the pulley itself and roughly $200 for installation, I couldn't be happier with the performance increase for the $$$
If you can't wait for a group buy to be put together, maybe this dyno will help you out
The work was performed by AI Design in Tuckahoe, NY.
Larry
1st, 2nd and 3rd all suck you into your seat now. The torque even has something to say in 4th, in a BIG way!!! Just slightly less pull in 4th as opposed to 1st to 3rd. 5th and 6th have slightly noticeable increases in torque, but nothing compared to lower gears.
As far as the $899 for the pulley itself and roughly $200 for installation, I couldn't be happier with the performance increase for the $$$
If you can't wait for a group buy to be put together, maybe this dyno will help you out
The work was performed by AI Design in Tuckahoe, NY.
Larry
04-11-2002, 10:25 PM
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2002 C230k
Thanks for sharing the dyno results. It is nice to see some independant verification (nothing personal Kleemann).
It is definitely at the top of my list for upgrades!
It is definitely at the top of my list for upgrades!
04-11-2002, 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Lynn
Damn, using a 15% drivetrain loss factor, your car was making 207 hp and 215.8 lbs-ft of torque at the crank before the pulley kit was installed. After 228.4 hp and 250 lbs-ft.
Damn, using a 15% drivetrain loss factor, your car was making 207 hp and 215.8 lbs-ft of torque at the crank before the pulley kit was installed. After 228.4 hp and 250 lbs-ft.
I suppose I got a good one I am lucky to own this particular vehicle and appreciate it in many ways It's pretty awesome for a daily ride 
Larry
04-11-2002, 11:47 PM
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C230 kompressor C2 C7
first i want to say thankyou. second were there any correction factors put into the equation. were the air temps the same, and this was the alloy pulley right?
04-12-2002, 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by chuckd94
Thanks for sharing the dyno results. It is nice to see some independant verification (nothing personal Kleemann).
Thanks for sharing the dyno results. It is nice to see some independant verification (nothing personal Kleemann).
Can someone explain to me why Kleemann showed a 22% increase in horsepower over stock, Goodkat only showed a 10% increase in horsepower over stock. That changes the math a little bit. Before I was under the assumption that the pulley costs less that $25/hp and now it's double that or $50/hp (not counting tax or installation). Now I know we have an altitude differerence but I'm going by the improvement in HP and not the total HP since each car is different. I think the improvement is more in line with what Renncpe got on his dyno results.
My wild guess is that there's a period of time that the ECU needs to recalibrate some spark advance and fuel settings and maybe these numbers improve over time. Is it possible to wait a few days and re-do the dyno to see if that number creeps up? Kleemann had his pulley on for a while before doing the $899 pulley.
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04-12-2002, 01:00 AM
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C230 kompressor C2 C7
i would welcome kleemann's response. he will be able to ask the right questions about the dyno testing to justify the results i would think.
04-12-2002, 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by sdcaclint
first i want to say thankyou. second were there any correction factors put into the equation. were the air temps the same, and this was the alloy pulley right?
first i want to say thankyou. second were there any correction factors put into the equation. were the air temps the same, and this was the alloy pulley right?
to your question.Larry
04-12-2002, 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by Buellwinkle
My wild guess is that there's a period of time that the ECU needs to recalibrate some spark advance and fuel settings and maybe these numbers improve over time. Is it possible to wait a few days and re-do the dyno to see if that number creeps up? Kleemann had his pulley on for a while before doing the $899 pulley.
My wild guess is that there's a period of time that the ECU needs to recalibrate some spark advance and fuel settings and maybe these numbers improve over time. Is it possible to wait a few days and re-do the dyno to see if that number creeps up? Kleemann had his pulley on for a while before doing the $899 pulley.
At $125 a run, I'm not running back for another dyno so fast! I'd be happy to wait a week or two and get another dyno if everyone wants to chip in :p
Larry
04-12-2002, 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by goodkat
At $125 a run, I'm not running back for another dyno so fast! I'd be happy to wait a week or two and get another dyno if everyone wants to chip in :p
Larry
At $125 a run, I'm not running back for another dyno so fast! I'd be happy to wait a week or two and get another dyno if everyone wants to chip in :p
Larry
04-12-2002, 12:03 PM
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Re: Goodkat
Originally posted by harpax
Didn't you also put Upsolute chip in your car?
Didn't you also put Upsolute chip in your car?
Now I'm glad I did. I've never been one to change programming. I'm more comfortable dealing with physics
And by the way, the supercharger's whirring is much more pronounced now!! Definitely music to my ears
Larry
04-12-2002, 12:05 PM
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C230 Kompressor
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
At that price I'll live with fact that a 10% increase is as good as it gets with that brand of pulley. Still a good increase but not what was advertised. I wonder if the H&S would be better since it's the largest diameter pulley I've heard of so far.
At that price I'll live with fact that a 10% increase is as good as it gets with that brand of pulley. Still a good increase but not what was advertised. I wonder if the H&S would be better since it's the largest diameter pulley I've heard of so far.
04-12-2002, 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by goodkat
Isn't the more significant number the 16% increase in torque at the wheels?
Isn't the more significant number the 16% increase in torque at the wheels?
What I'm getting at is, a) did the vendor skew his numbers in anyway to show his product in the best possible light, b) is there something in your results or car that doesn't live up to it's full potential. Maybe a fuel setting or something like that. I would imaging that you want as good as or better results that Kleemann got, wouldn't you?
04-12-2002, 06:00 PM
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M3
HP is derived from Torque:
(Torque * RPM)/5252 = HP (Horsepower)
If you don't believe me...you can check yourself by taking any spot on the graph and puting in the numbers into the equation.
(Torque * RPM)/5252 = HP (Horsepower)
If you don't believe me...you can check yourself by taking any spot on the graph and puting in the numbers into the equation.
04-12-2002, 06:05 PM
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'01 C240/6
Originally posted by KJ-TypeR
HP is derived from Torque:
(Torque * RPM)/5252 = HP (Horsepower)
If you don't believe me...you can check yourself by taking any spot on the graph and puting in the numbers into the equation.
HP is derived from Torque:
(Torque * RPM)/5252 = HP (Horsepower)
If you don't believe me...you can check yourself by taking any spot on the graph and puting in the numbers into the equation.
04-12-2002, 06:13 PM
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Power results
The power graph looks a little off to me- potentially several reasons for this.
Was the earth lead to the battery removed during the installation? If not- remove the earth lead for a few minutes and connect it again. This will reset the adpatives in the ECU and will speed up reseting the adaptives.
It looks like a pretty good drop off at the last 500 RPM- what kind of fuel? Positively HAS to be premium from now on. Which gear? Our dynos in the CL203 are done in 4th.
The ECU standard program runs very conservative timing from 5K on up- it should be a flat line, not a downward curve.
Was a proper sized fan used during the run? Was is aimed correctly? Even the largest fans have trouble reproducing 60mph on raod airflow. The intercooler is 1.45 sq ft, To replicate 60 mph airflow requires a 7700 cfm fan with a wide enough exducer to cover the intercooler!
How many miles on the car? I have seen some with as little as 4K miles require spark plug replacement. Check the ceramic insulator- if it is at all brown at the joint at the wrench lug replace them. Gap as standard.
I do not skew results- I make every attempt possible to HINDER my reults so I can show real world gains. I drive 75 miles to Denver for dyno testing and wait only 10-15 minutes to do dyno pulls- one after the other after the other. I use the runs that are the average mean of all runs done, not the "cherry" run no one can reproduce.
Reset adaptives, drive a minimum of 100 miles of as varied driving as possible and test again.
Was the earth lead to the battery removed during the installation? If not- remove the earth lead for a few minutes and connect it again. This will reset the adpatives in the ECU and will speed up reseting the adaptives.
It looks like a pretty good drop off at the last 500 RPM- what kind of fuel? Positively HAS to be premium from now on. Which gear? Our dynos in the CL203 are done in 4th.
The ECU standard program runs very conservative timing from 5K on up- it should be a flat line, not a downward curve.
Was a proper sized fan used during the run? Was is aimed correctly? Even the largest fans have trouble reproducing 60mph on raod airflow. The intercooler is 1.45 sq ft, To replicate 60 mph airflow requires a 7700 cfm fan with a wide enough exducer to cover the intercooler!
How many miles on the car? I have seen some with as little as 4K miles require spark plug replacement. Check the ceramic insulator- if it is at all brown at the joint at the wrench lug replace them. Gap as standard.
I do not skew results- I make every attempt possible to HINDER my reults so I can show real world gains. I drive 75 miles to Denver for dyno testing and wait only 10-15 minutes to do dyno pulls- one after the other after the other. I use the runs that are the average mean of all runs done, not the "cherry" run no one can reproduce.
Reset adaptives, drive a minimum of 100 miles of as varied driving as possible and test again.
Last edited by Brandon @ Kleemann; 04-12-2002 at 06:17 PM.
04-12-2002, 09:23 PM
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Re: Power results
Originally posted by KLEEMANN
The power graph looks a little off to me- potentially several reasons for this.
Guten Abend mein Herr Yes, I felt that offness the first time I hit 5,300 to 5,500.
Was the earth lead to the battery removed during the installation? If not- remove the earth lead for a few minutes and connect it again. This will reset the adpatives in the ECU and will speed up reseting the adaptives.
I don't know if the lead was removed during installation. I shall find out. I did remove the negative lead myself for an hour the evening after installation as instructed by AI, and filled up before disconnecting the negative lead with Ultra 94 on a very empty tank. There were still a few radio stations in memory after reconnecting the lead, but that's it. Everything else was reset, including windows, roof and traction control program not being available. Eveything returned to normal over the next 12 hours. Anyway, I still feel the same drop off at the end.
It looks like a pretty good drop off at the last 500 RPM- what kind of fuel? Positively HAS to be premium from now on. Which gear? Our dynos in the CL203 are done in 4th.
I consistently use Exxon Mobil. Rarely anything else. The dynos were both done in 4th gear.
The ECU standard program runs very conservative timing from 5K on up- it should be a flat line, not a downward curve.
If you say so
Was a proper sized fan used during the run? Was is aimed correctly? Even the largest fans have trouble reproducing 60mph on raod airflow. The intercooler is 1.45 sq ft, To replicate 60 mph airflow requires a 7700 cfm fan with a wide enough exducer to cover the intercooler!
I know two things about the fan they used. It was big and loud! To be honest, this car will never see the track, and my biggest kick is 0 to 80 (when safe) That's where I have the most fun
How many miles on the car? I have seen some with as little as 4K miles require spark plug replacement. Check the ceramic insulator- if it is at all brown at the joint at the wrench lug replace them. Gap as standard.
There were approximately 3,900 miles on the car when the pulley was installed, and now there are approximately 4,100 miles on the car. I'm taking the car in for its first oil change very shortly. I can't believe I waited THIS long even w/ Mobil 1. I will have the spark plugs checked.
I do not skew results- I make every attempt possible to HINDER my reults so I can show real world gains. I drive 75 miles to Denver for dyno testing and wait only 10-15 minutes to do dyno pulls- one after the other after the other. I use the runs that are the average mean of all runs done, not the "cherry" run no one can reproduce.
We did four pulls before and four pulls after. Both times after the second pull the car was shut off for about 10 to 15 minutes with the big, loud fan blowing upward at the engine. The third pull both times produced the best results.
Reset adaptives, drive a minimum of 100 miles of as varied driving as possible and test again.
Okay, aber nicht bis nechste Woche. Ich moechte diese Wochenende sehr viel schlafen I'll see what I can do about taking care of all the adaptives next week.
The power graph looks a little off to me- potentially several reasons for this.
Guten Abend mein Herr
Yes, I felt that offness the first time I hit 5,300 to 5,500.Was the earth lead to the battery removed during the installation? If not- remove the earth lead for a few minutes and connect it again. This will reset the adpatives in the ECU and will speed up reseting the adaptives.
I don't know if the lead was removed during installation. I shall find out. I did remove the negative lead myself for an hour the evening after installation as instructed by AI, and filled up before disconnecting the negative lead with Ultra 94 on a very empty tank. There were still a few radio stations in memory after reconnecting the lead, but that's it. Everything else was reset, including windows, roof and traction control program not being available. Eveything returned to normal over the next 12 hours. Anyway, I still feel the same drop off at the end.
It looks like a pretty good drop off at the last 500 RPM- what kind of fuel? Positively HAS to be premium from now on. Which gear? Our dynos in the CL203 are done in 4th.
I consistently use Exxon Mobil. Rarely anything else. The dynos were both done in 4th gear.
The ECU standard program runs very conservative timing from 5K on up- it should be a flat line, not a downward curve.
If you say so
Was a proper sized fan used during the run? Was is aimed correctly? Even the largest fans have trouble reproducing 60mph on raod airflow. The intercooler is 1.45 sq ft, To replicate 60 mph airflow requires a 7700 cfm fan with a wide enough exducer to cover the intercooler!
I know two things about the fan they used. It was big and loud! To be honest, this car will never see the track, and my biggest kick is 0 to 80 (when safe
) That's where I have the most fun How many miles on the car? I have seen some with as little as 4K miles require spark plug replacement. Check the ceramic insulator- if it is at all brown at the joint at the wrench lug replace them. Gap as standard.
There were approximately 3,900 miles on the car when the pulley was installed, and now there are approximately 4,100 miles on the car. I'm taking the car in for its first oil change very shortly. I can't believe I waited THIS long even w/ Mobil 1. I will have the spark plugs checked.
I do not skew results- I make every attempt possible to HINDER my reults so I can show real world gains. I drive 75 miles to Denver for dyno testing and wait only 10-15 minutes to do dyno pulls- one after the other after the other. I use the runs that are the average mean of all runs done, not the "cherry" run no one can reproduce.
We did four pulls before and four pulls after. Both times after the second pull the car was shut off for about 10 to 15 minutes with the big, loud fan blowing upward at the engine. The third pull both times produced the best results.
Reset adaptives, drive a minimum of 100 miles of as varied driving as possible and test again.
Okay, aber nicht bis nechste Woche. Ich moechte diese Wochenende sehr viel schlafen
I'll see what I can do about taking care of all the adaptives next week.
04-12-2002, 09:41 PM
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KLEEMANN C230K
Originally posted by Buellwinkle
What I'm getting at is, a) did the vendor skew his numbers in anyway to show his product in the best possible light, b) is there something in your results or car that doesn't live up to it's full potential. Maybe a fuel setting or something like that. I would imaging that you want as good as or better results that Kleemann got, wouldn't you?
What I'm getting at is, a) did the vendor skew his numbers in anyway to show his product in the best possible light, b) is there something in your results or car that doesn't live up to it's full potential. Maybe a fuel setting or something like that. I would imaging that you want as good as or better results that Kleemann got, wouldn't you?
***:ignore:***
B'BYE!!!
John.
04-13-2002, 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by SoCal240/6
That is correct, so how can changing the pulley change torque more than hp? They are mathematically related numbers.
That is correct, so how can changing the pulley change torque more than hp? They are mathematically related numbers.
The increases in HP and Torque mentioned were increases at the MAXIMUM points of both graphs respectively.
You can notice that the Torque peak occurs at a much lower RPM than the HP peak.
You can also notice that the gain in torque was substantially smaller at higher RPM.
The largest gain in Torque was at 3400 rpm, but the HP increase at its peak (5300 rpm) was smaller since the increase in Torque at 5300 rpm was also smaller.
What I'm getting at is that modifications can change the shape of the power curve such that there is a large increase in torque, but a smaller increase in HP. Sometimes, a modification can DECREASE torque, but gain HP at higher rpms. This usually means that the "mid range" of a cars powerband has been sacrificed for more power at higher rpms.
I know I expained this very poorly, I hope you get what I'm saying.
Last edited by KJ-TypeR; 04-13-2002 at 02:46 AM.
04-13-2002, 02:56 AM
#23
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Originally posted by dj-po
Don't you ever stop?
John.
Don't you ever stop?
John.
Now you promised you woudn't post in the W203 forum anymore. This must seem like a gruesome car accident to you, the kind you dont' want to look but can't help it. Personally I enjoy the bantering, it keeps the forum alive. So banter on Mr Po! It gives me practice for my daughter's softball game tomorrow. We encourage the girls to chatter and annoy the other team to distract them.
04-13-2002, 01:35 PM
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KLEEMANN C230K
I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but then you will have won. I see this as a kind of game, keeps me on my toes.
I remember once you said "I don't do can't very well"
I bet you can't jump off a bridge.
John.
I remember once you said "I don't do can't very well"
I bet you can't jump off a bridge.
John.
04-14-2002, 12:31 AM
#25
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Originally posted by dj-po
I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but then you will have won. I see this as a kind of game, keeps me on my toes.
I remember once you said "I don't do can't very well"
I bet you can't jump off a bridge.
John.
I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but then you will have won. I see this as a kind of game, keeps me on my toes.
I remember once you said "I don't do can't very well"
I bet you can't jump off a bridge.
John.
BTW, I tried your annoyance techniques at today's girls softball game and it really worked. We still lost (nothing new there) but we really annoyed their batters. Everytime our pitcher threw the ball I had the girls yell "swing" early and loud, and they got 3 strike outs in a row (a rarity for our pitchers). Their coach was so mad, even madder than you get. If you can't win at least annoy the other team. Thanks for helping me with that strategy.
