Ted in Toronto

Flipped through the new issue of Car and Driver at O'Hare just before I flew out of there tonight. There is a comparison test of the C300 vs. A4, BMW3 series and Cadillac CTS ... The C comes in dead last, Caddy is 3rd, A4 is 2nd and the BMW which - as always - they rated first. You will be surprised to read how poorly designed and built our cars are; poor handling (partly due to lousy tires); overly aggressive stability control; cheap interior materials; flat uncomfortable seats; smaller inside than a Civic, etc.. I think I will trade for a Kia, they usually seem to like them......

marakbai

which month's issue is this? I don't think I saw this; and I subscribe.

Those things are a riot sometimes ...

aowhaus

just got the issue in the mail today and I went straight to that article and read it with disappointment.

However in Europe the W204 has been getting excellent praise, some even over the 3-series.

cracker123

The retard who reviewed it probably owns the other cars? , if a guys rates a Benz last over Cadi and an Audi, I call him fugly retard. Well rating a BMW over a Benz is fine in some cases, but not an Audi and Cadi.

Mercedes is a work of Art rest of the cars try to own up to it , except BMW.

I wonder which will get more attention BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Cadi ? that is a question to ask ?

tanktube67

here is your answer.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8mEf4WGc_No

st13phil

Don't dismiss Audi so quickly. Thanks to Jurgen Schrempp's ruinous tenure as head of MB and the savage cost-cutting that he instigated, MB's reputation for engineering excellence and quality was badly damaged. The W204 is an incredibly important car for MB because it's the first new volume model that's they've brought to market for years that doesn't contain 15,000 components all selected because they were the cheapest available.

Audi willingly stepped into the "quality" void caused by MB taking their eye off the ball and now produce cars with fit and finish that by any objective assessment are superb. As one of the UK motor magazines put it when reviewing the new A4 "Mercedes engineers would give almost anything to get their hands on some of the materials Audi use in the interior". Hopefully MB's new top management will continue to reverse the quality decline the brand suffered and re-take the crown from Audi. But in the meantime Audi is a serious competitor to MB at the higher volume end of their range.

By comparison, in Europe, the Caddy is a bit of a joke and not considered to be in the same class as the Audi, BMW or Benz. Just shows how the different markets have different priorities when judging cars I suppose.

lx Raven xl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQxz5yqAhcs

Thankyou Mercedes. Thank you. I love you!!!!!

430752

But the real question you forgot to answer is if any of these of false? I for one think they're true, or close enough to be true that one could say them without talking out of his or her ****. While I wouldn't consider the handling poor (and I doubt they say that) it is bested by both the audi and bmw in my test drives (didn't drive the caddy, and the infiniti is worse). the interior is full of some cheap interior materials (and some good ones), the seats are flat (but not uncomfortable imho) and the inside is probably smaller than a civic (been in a new civic recently? spacious) but this doesn't bother me as if I wanted space I'd buy a mini-van.

Frankly, and maybe the Mercedes fan-boys need to take a good time to reflect on their cars, but the c-class is bested in probably every category by its competition, except maybe looks. And kias and hyundai's even offer things we don't get (memory seats? a lousy place to put change for tolls? etc.). But, the whole of the car is better than the sum of its parts. That's why I bought it, warts and all.

And, btw, if you don't think audi has some nice interiors, check again friends. Probably the best in the biz until you get to the $100K range. Had the new B8 chassis been released yet by audi, I might have bought one. Merc has some serious competition here, at least in the entyr-lux awd sedan market (a big market in the most populous area of the country - the northeast). A lot of ppl. I know (myself included) have eschewed the bmw cuz it is fugly (and big), and pass on the current a4 so as not to get stuck with the last generation's look, and the infiniti is too japanese for some, but if bmw changes its looks or when the new a4 comes, or when the new Acura TL is released with their SH-AWD, Merc may be in big trouble with the current package it is offering in the c-class. Guess that's why rumors of additional options, features and power bumps for the 2009 model year are rampant.

peabers

+1

My purchase of the C was a compromise... a good compromise nonetheless.

And don't forget the lack of space in the IS-series from Lexus.

st13phil

+1 on that from the UK, too.

BMW, Audi and MB compete head-to-head in the 3-series / A4 / C-Class sector in Europe and - thankfully - they all have a slightly different slant on what's best in that market segment. A mixture of Bangle's fugly designs for BMW and MB's (hopefully past) quality problems have done absolute wonders for Audi who now have an absolutely top-notch image to go with their very good cars. But good as they are, I still went for the C-Class because overall it was a better package for me.

BTW, I disagree that the A4 handles better than the C-Class. Maybe they use different suspension settings in Europe to those for the US market, but the current A4 near the limit was, for me, not as good a drive as the C-Class and ride quality and refinement (I'm talking 4-pot diesels) was definitely below that of the Benz.

e1000

i stopped reading car magazines a long time ago.

oblu

Was it a lux with all season? I'm finding the Contisport 3 to be very good. Almost 8/10ths as good as the Michelin PS2 I had on my last car.

That cannot be denied. As a new-to-MB-owner I was disheartened to find out I can't defeat ESP, even after physically turning it off with the button indicates it's being turned off ... I guess 'relaxed' might be a better term than 'off'.

Nobody can really argue otherwise.

Yes, but comfort is always subjective ... I find them slightly uncomfortable and am always adjusting my seat.

That's not really fair, the Civic is FWD, of course it's got more interior volume.

1. The CTS size wise, and Cadillac has stated it many times, is competing against the 5 series/A6/E Class at a much lower price point. It wasn't conceived as a 3 series/A4/C Class competitor ... but I'm sure they'll take what they can get.

2. I've owned a current 3 series. If you're on a driving loop devoid of traffic, I'd take it every time (sport package equipped). The handling is awesome. And don't get 'handling' confused with 'grip' ... of which it doesn't have that much because the Bridgestone RFTs suck. But it's a car you can easily take over the limit, hang the tail out, and bring it back with a flick of the wrist. You always know what it's going to do. But living with it on a day to day basis because the suspension crashes over everything.

3. I've owned a B6 A4 (the current is called B7, but the platform is indistinguishable as much as the Audi fan boys would like to tell you it's not) ... and I still drive B7 A4s when my wife's Q7 is in for service (often) and it was a great daily car for the PacNW winters. You could drive it just as fast around corners in the rain as you could the dry. The interior was top notch. But it was much much tighter than the C. Much tighter. The design is getting old and weary. And the thing understeers like a pig rooting in the dirt for truffles.

It's a hard call. I went for a C300 because I liked the styling, wanted to try my first MB, and thought the pricing was great for the content. I wasn't interested in a 328i since I was moving out of a 330i, nor was I interested in moving up to a 335i. The styling of the 3 series bored me after about a year. I'd never consider any CTS besides a CTS-V. And why would anyone purchase an A4 when the completely redesigned model has already been unveiled?

Will I get another C after my lease on this one is up? Probably not unless they make some major upgrades to the interior. I'll probably be looking at the new A4 or at the redesigned E Class at that point.

st13phil

Interestingly, a couple of the UK reviews from the launch of the new A4 commented about the understeer on that model too. Despite Audi going to great lengths to get the engine back further in relation to the front axle it still has two modes when pushed hard: lots of understeer or lots and lots of understeer. Almost as though the chassis engineers that created the RS4 and the R8 were on holiday when the new A4 was designed

omgitselaine

I just got the new C&D in the mail as well and not to much surprise the C didnt do well again key thing for us to remember is that its his opinion ?? one's subjective opinion is different from everyone else's so i dont usually take these articles too seriously. yes the handling can be better however its perfect for me , yes interior room in a civic may be a tad more but if i wanted that then i wouldve purchased a civic ?? all in all i love the new styling .... yes even with the camry like rear and the handling, gas mileage and the interior plastic doesnt bother me that much so thats why i purchased the new C

webada

I second that. I had an opportunity to test drive A4, 330, and is300 side by side. It was on open lot setup with obstacle driving course. My experiences on handling goes like this: 330>IS300>A4. I ended up with a BMW. Now that I test drove the C300 sports, it sits somewhere between 330 and IS300. (IS300 feels too much of a toy car, its quick but with light weight steering and flappy break pedal.)

Anyways, remember that these so call "editors" are still human beings. Each of them will have their own taste and subjected opinions. Usually they will push the car to the limit, a condition you will probably never be in. The best bet is, go test drive the cars you are considering. What matter is how you feel in it when you drive it with your own behavior, not what the editors are saying.

e1000

another thing to consider is that this particular group of cars have gotten to the point where there really isn't a bad decision. I think we can all agree that the A4, C-class, 3-series, IS, and the CTS each have thier merits.

oblu

Actually great point. Everything in this class is so good now that it's really just personal preference on what it is you want out of the car.

Ted in Toronto

I just got my copy of Car and Driver in the mail and my memory of what I breezed through at the newstand was a little off - the 2nd rated car was the Infiniti G35 Sport; there was no Audi in the test. The C300 was a sport model with 17" Continental ContiPro Contact all season tires that they admit could not keep up to the performance tires on the other cars (quote: "the road felt like it was coated with Crisco... I've never hydroplaned on a dry road before").

To eliminate any doubt about where the review is going, the article starts with, "We're not exactly sending lambs to the slaughter, but putting various competitors of the BMW 3-series into the ring with that brilliant German car can occasionally feel like cruelty. The 3-series ... is so good at doing so many things that these contests turn out to be battles for second place".

I do like BMW's - I just find here in Canada if you want to add a few options (like seats and a steering wheel), they hit you with package upon package and quickly add $15K or more to what looked like a good starting price. For my needs - a 4 door all wheel drive for commuting 2 hours per day - the C300 represents much better value. if I want sportier handling, I'll drive my SLK.

peabers

Dare I call C/D BMW Fanboys? Oh yes I do! I used to read them occasionally, a few years back, but I got tired of their cheer-leading the gang from Munich. Also dropped MotorTrend because they worship the Detroit iron.

Opinions are opinions... find one person that agrees and I can find ten that don't.

The BMW335xi that I priced out against my C350W4M was almost $5K more expensive.

PC Valkyrie

Copied from another forum (from the latest issue of Car & Driver):

1st Place:
BMW 328i - 227 points

Highs:
Better to drive than most sports cars, hushed refinement of a luxury car, relative light weight, best fuel economy.

Lows:
Smallish back seat, radio display disappears with polarized shades

Verdict:
BMW still makes the best sports sedan for $38,000.

Price as test: $38,825
6-Speed Manual Transmission
0-60 mph - 6.1 seconds
0-100 mph - 16.4 seconds
1/4 Mile - 14.8 @ 95 mph
5-60 mph - 6.7 seconds
30-50 mph top gear - 10.5 seconds
50-70 mph top gear - 10.2 seconds
EPA City - 18 miles per gallon
EPA Highway - 28 miles per gallon
C&D observed - 16 miles per gallon
Braking 70-0 - 161 feet
Skidpad - .90
Lane Change - 62.9

2nd Place:
Infiniti G35 Sport - 212 points

Highs:
Rocket-sled acceleration, lots of features for the price, thinks it is a Nissan 350Z.

Lows:
Gritty shifter, the coarse hum of the big V-6, lacks the finesse of the Bavarian.

Verdict:
It's all good, but the BMW is all great.

Price as test: $38,865
6-Speed Manual Transmission
0-60 mph - 5.5 seconds
0-100 mph - 13.6 seconds
1/4 Mile - 14.1 @ 102 mph
5-60 mph - 6.1 seconds
30-50 mph top gear - 9.1 seconds
50-70 mph top gear - 8.4 seconds
EPA City - 17 miles per gallon
EPA Highway - 25 miles per gallon
C&D observed - 14 miles per gallon
Braking 70-0 - 157 feet
Skidpad - .89
Lane Change - 61.8

3rd Place:
Cadillac CTS DI - 199 points

Highs:
Impeccable chassis tuning, Cadillac style inside and out, the interior GM refused for so long to build, a relatively big back seat, requires only 87 octane.

Lows:
Loutish shifter, odd clutch feel, engine groans, leaden feel, excessive weight.

Verdict:
America's sport sedan is let down by an uncouth transmission and a slight weight problem.

Price as test: $36,970
6-Speed Manual Transmission
0-60 mph - 6.1 seconds
0-100 mph - 16.5 seconds
1/4 Mile - 14.7 @ 95 mph
5-60 mph - 6.9 seconds
30-50 mph top gear - 14.0 seconds
50-70 mph top gear - 14.5 seconds
EPA City - 16 miles per gallon
EPA Highway - 25 miles per gallon
C&D observed - 13 miles per gallon
Braking 70-0 - 155 feet
Skidpad - .87
Lane Change - 64.2

4th Place:
Mercedes C300 Sport - 189 points

Highs:
Supple ride, subdued mechanicals, superb navigation and stereo systems.

Lows:
Low-grip tires, light and fast steering, intrusive stability control, floppy shifter, flat seats, unimpressive interior materials.

Verdict:
A convincing sports sedan at a sedate pace, but pushing hard reveals a luxury car impersonating a sports sedan.

Price as test: $37,410
6-Speed Manual Transmission
0-60 mph - 6.5 seconds
0-100 mph - 16.8 seconds
1/4 Mile - 14.9 @ 95 mph
5-60 mph - 7.1 seconds
30-50 mph top gear - 12.8 seconds
50-70 mph top gear - 10.7 seconds
EPA City - 18 miles per gallon
EPA Highway - 26 miles per gallon
C&D observed - 15 miles per gallon
Braking 70-0 - 174 feet
Skidpad - .83
Lane Change - 59.9

PC Valkyrie

Objectively by the numbers, the C300 "Sport" performed very poorly compared to the competition, as tested by C&D. Subjective opinions can vary between people, but numbers don't lie (as much). I'm very disappointed as the previous facelifted W203 C-class had significantly better handling numbers on the skidpad and lane change.

The new W204 C-class was supposed to bring a new challenge to the BMW 3 series. Instead, it has the most underpowed engines, and the standard agility control system on the "Sport" models has CONSISTENTLY produced inferior handling numbers to the previous facelifted W203 C-class Sport (in more than one US magazine). Maybe it is the all season rubber that is at fault, but MB should provide better tires for a head-to-head comparison against other "Sport" sedans.

Even if a newer "advanced agility" control system comes later on, the damage has been done. The W204 C-class is again losing a lot of comparison tests. Even if they improve things considerably in the future, it will be hard to change people's impressions (much like how the much improved facelifted W203 didn't really change many people's impression of the W203 C-class overall).

I had hoped MB would come out with their best stuff with the W204, but they haven't yet in this very competitive compact Sport Sedan segment.

I'm sure the W204 feels comfortable and refined as a compact luxury car, but when you call yourself a "Sport" sedan, MB should have put in a better effort to get some decent press and reviews from auto journalists. As it stands, BMW 3 series remains king and MB W204 C-class is last place out of all these cars.

Brad G

Comparing the Mercedes C300 to the BMW 328i is like comparing two different flavors of luxury ice cream. Like Chocolate Raspberry Truffle vs. White Chocolate Macadamia Nut.

For decades now Mercedes Benz has been more about smooth ride along with with excellent road manners while BMW has really been a little more about the sport end. This "sport" feature is also what car magazines tend to favor. After all their title is "Car and Driver".

I'm now on my second C and evaluated the BMW very carefully.

While I felt and still believe the BMW to be an excellent automobile, I do believe it to be much more driver focused.

That's all great when you have an open road but when you continuously compete with LA's stressful traffic chaos, I believe the driver focused, race car feel gets old.

The Mercedes is quieter (a little more insulated from the noise of other vehicles cruising on the interstate next to you for instance), rides smoother yet is plenty fun and rewarding to drive.

I have the 18"ers and the car handles plenty fine for me.


Just for my own personal taste, the new C offers more balance between luxury (comfort) and sport. It's roomier for my growing family and offers more classic styling than the 3 sedan. (IMHO the 3 Series Coupe and Convert are way more attractive than the 3 sedan.

JimPap

In my opinion, the BMW 3 series that I drove ran like a scalded dog, but the rough ride and noise were enough negatives that I passed on the car. It was only later that I felt that the style was dated and that I'd rather get a style near the beginning of its life cycle than one at its end.

I prefer a better ride (although the C car is plenty stiff), style that's a work of art, a quiet cabin, and performance that's ahead of most cars out there.

I did speak to a Lexus salesman who actually preferred the BMW and called it a "driver's car".

It really comes down to which qualities you prefer, not which qualities someone else prefers.

wase4711

yep, who really cares what a magazine writer thinks about YOUR car...its what each individual likes, NOT about what some car mag writer likes..

Stick Girl

I couldn't agree with you more on this, Brad. I had the 3 series some years ago. I got rid of it because once my daughter got out of the baby seat and into the booster seat, she would always complain about how uncomfortable her legs were and we were taking frequent long trips to visit family. I ended up getting a "mommy car" (Chrysler Pacifica). Now that she is older and no longer needs any child-type seat, she loves the C and doesn't complain about the room in the back. This might seem trivial to some, but it was important to me. Also, I never considered going back to the 3 series either. I don't have the need for speed, per se, so that isn't a selling point for me. My other choice was a mini Cooper.