narky

I've decided that my car is too slow to make any power upgrades worthwhile. So until warranty runs out and perhaps a forced induction of some sort is available, I want to make this car a super-handling hero. I need help.

Background:
1. I'm not going to track my car (maybe a few times?). I want a strictly street setup.
2. I'm only going for a mild lowering, since I'm already dragging my front bumper all over the place (two scratches already!) and I plan on adding a lip.
3. Performance/handling prowess is my only goal, not looks. I can handle a stiff ride. I'll take the pain if it'll make my car turn on rails.
4. Though cost is a factor, I'd much rather have a nice (PERFORMANCE!) setup that costs a little bit more than a cheap setup that handles like

I ask because I'm sick of waiting for a proper coilover setup. Can anyone suggest some shock/spring combos? And no, I don't wanna install just springs. I want the real deal the first time around.

Questions:
What's the benefit of a coilover set when compared to a spring/shock match up? From what I understand, coilover just means the springs are attached (coiled over) to the shocks (or are they called dampers? same thing?) Many coilovers that I've seen for other cars allow differing levels of adjustments, but as I said, I'm not going to track this car, so I don't see why I'd need to adjust it all the time. Plus I'm just lazy, so I'm never gonna fiddle with it once installed--I know myself. I wanna just set it aaaaaand forget it! Any performance benefits to a coilover over springs/shocks other than the useless (for me) adjustments?

Please assume that I know nothing--it's true. If you guys think I should just sit tight and wait for a company to release some coilovers, that's okay too. Or do you guys think the OEM setup is good enough and I should be just adding other components like braces, bars and such? If so, which ones? Lowering is not even a priority. The only reason I would do so would be to increase handling performance.

Maybe this thread can develop into a discussion about suspension for the W204.

And thanks in advance for the help! Much appreciated. Looking forward to learn much from the great body of knowledge in this forum.

vnc230

hey , does your car has agility control system .?? do you ask dealer about this issue before you start ...im afraid it will touch something on agility control system ...?

Derspeed

Hi Narky. I was struggling with one of the issues you mentioned. Installing springs without installing performance dampers. Sorry if this jumps around. I don't have much time.

Here is what I found when I spoke with a MB service tech. The W204 C Class is fitted with seven different coil spring sets depending on the country it is sold in, and the model. Each set has different stiffnesses. All of the sets use the same dampers (shocks and struts). This does not apply to the C63.

Additonally, my step-dad has been a mechanic, primarily installing suspension, tires and doing alignments, for over 20 years. He has installed all of my performance setups. He indicated Eibachs (what I bought) will not damage the dampers because they don't lower the car that much. (I know there will be differing opinions, but I really trust this guy) and the Eibach pro kit is designed to be used with OE dampers.

I once used Eibachs with a set of Boge Turbo Gas dampers, which are basically OE replacements. That suspension setup worked flawlessly for the 60,000 miles I put on the car and the additonal 20,000 miles my buddy (who bought the car) put on it. I initially used a HOR tech spring set with the Boge set and the Boges couldn't handle it. The car handled well, but on rough roads there was a lot of hobbyhorse motion.

Coilovers allow you to adjust ride height and dampening. The front units for our cars is one piece. The rears will be similar to the OE setup, but the spring will sit on a threaded seat that allows height adjustment. You should look at pictures from the various suspension company websites. Go to KW. They have good shots.

I wish we had more coilover options right now, but we don't. KW sell the Variant 3 for the W204. That's the only one I know of. Be warned, however, some coilover sets are complicated to use. If not set up properly, you could make a car dangerous to drive.

From what I've learned, I believe the W204 dampers are similar to Koni FSDs or Boges as they have a "comfort zone" and a "performance" zone.

I am going to take a chance.

Check out H&R's website too. They have an anit-sway bar kit for the W204.

Hope I helped.

Aggressive

From previous expereince here is what I would recommend. Front strut tower bar, mild springs w/ mild drop, and most of all sway bars. Sway bars alone will help you hug the road really well without affecting the ride. They will remove any excess body roll and give your C-class that cornering on rails feel. I have not researched if anyone offers sway bars for the c-class yet. Next I would recomend the front strut tower bar. This wil make your front end more stiff and create less body flex of the car. After these two mods, if you lower the car by adding the springs you will be lowering the center of gravity too. Surely this will help in the long run but you may not feel difference since sway bars are allready installed. I believe the aftermarket springs are for looks more than performance. If you really want to have that handling superstar of a car, go with adjustable coil overs. That money you do not want to spend on engine performance can go towards those.
You can get deeper into details if you add polyurethane bushings to sway the bars and change upper and lower control arms to aftermarket performance. Thats a waste for a daily driver, I would leave those to the strictly track cars.

TuneTime

I did H&R springs along with their sway bars for a customer.... then we took an curvy exit ramp rather fast... it stayed pretty straight... he was happy... it also had 19's on it... and the cost factor was not that bad....

narky

Thanks for the replies, fellas!

I think I am indeed gonna go for the sway bar first, if only I could find it. I can't find it on the H&R corporate website. I went through the Applications tab and picked the 2008 C300, and all I saw were two sets of springs and buncha spacers. What'd be a good price, and where do I get some?

And Derspeed, I was looking at those Eibachs! I've been searching the forum for drop in height and such, but it seems like everyone has a different idea of how much it drops. If you've already installed them, you mind posting a pic? I figure I'll just go ahead and install em. If the OEM dampers die out (hopefully they won't), oh well, I guess. Hopefully coilovers will be available by then.

I've heard/read that front strut tower bars are essential for a proper suspension setup, but dunno much about them. Maybe I just go ahead and install that too, whenever it's available.

And then, the final component to this would be wheels. Light is right, in my book. That whole bit o' science about reduction of unsprung mass leading to better acceleration/deceleration/handling and all that jazz. The search begins!

And I do need a few cosmetic mods as well. Gotta look cool while I zoom around. haha

Ahhh... so many parts to buy and install! I need to start making money faster. What do you guys suggest in terms of short-term investment strategies?

Azn_C300

Do what I'm doing and keep waiting for those 6 numbers to come up

All the shops I went to recommended H&R over Eibachs. They said after settling, you'll get a lower drop with H&Rs. I must admit I do worry a bit about how low it'll go because I'll be adding that lip as well. There just isn't much in way of options right now for handling for our car so I've basically given up and waiting till after my exterior mods are finished before going inside. Sway bars are something that I'd be interested in, so if anyone has any recommendations, that would be greatly appreciated.

narky

After lump sum and fed/state taxes, you end up with something like 30%. It's not even worth it unless it goes over $100MM. I only buy one ticket when it does.

Another good idea! This is why I mash the F5 button all day long, morning, day, night, and then early morning. I just don't know if I have the patience. Parts! Appear! SHAZAAMMM!

C200k W204

Swaybars play a big role in suspension. When I installed the eibachs, stock ways seemed very thin compared to those I saw in some different models. Of course the car was not built to turn crazy. Since we don't have much available for aftermarket parts, I'd recommend doing sways first.
Eibachs do tend to lower less than the H&R springs, but they have cons and pros. It is all up to what you are targetting. Coilovers would be ultimate set up since you can adjust every bits of it after trials. I understand you don't want to change settings much if you do get coilovers, yet on our GTM race cars, I had to change setting 13 times on the M3 to get it just right for the particular track.
There are companys that builds customized coilovers for around $6k and you can try out different rate of springs and they help you set it to the way you want. Expect the ride to be uber hard. Also bushings play major role in handling. Replacing rubber bushings to Ball joint is something that every track race cars have done. After done right, it almost feels like you are driving a big race kart.

Sways, ball joints, coilovers, strutbars, etc would be the ideal list for the perfect handling. Yet we don't have above parts in the market, so it should be all customized which means money. Good luck on your persue to perfect handling. I love cars that handle like karts

It is matter of how much reinforcement to the body and how much it gives that sums up the handling. Such as the full carbon chassis vehicles tend to turn better, since the body itself flexes under hard Gs yet it turns back to its original shape, unlike the metal. Race cars have added sturdiness to their certain locations where it needs to be sturdy, yet they let the body to flex so that it doesn't just slide off out of the track with the uber hard body.

Hope that helped.

Derspeed

When mine is lowered, I am def. getting spacers and proper lug bolts. I want the rear tires to fall just inside the fender. 10mm should do it.

My fault. Eibach has the anti-sway bars. I may get those:

http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe...15460600026377

I was once told that German car companies prefer to tune suspension with springs and struts first. Anyway, bigger anti-sway bars will not allow as much torsional movement in the suspension. Sways are basically torsion springs. At one time torsion springs were used as the only springs on certain cars.

Anti-sway bars become a bit of a problem on rough roads as the car will act like it has less independent suspension. On smooth roads they are great. If the Sways are adjustable, whatever you do, don't make the rear of the car too stiff. You may tune in too much oversteer. Or..the rear Eibach anti-sway bar may be just thick enough to be the only one required to get the desired results. We need to do a little more research.

Two more little things:

The chassis on the W204 is so stiff, I doubt a strut tower brace is going to make much difference. I never used one on my Passat and that thing corners like a *****.

When I asked the professionals, most preferred Eibachs over H&Rs if using OE dampers. H&Rs are stiffer and lower. They settle more than Eibachs. I could be wrong, but I think Eibachs are specifically tuned for American roads for what that's worth.

I have had both brands, and both brands are awesome. I don't think, however, I would have installed H&Rs with my OE dampers. They seem too stiff.

Anyway, it's great fun when you car is tossable. I have always prefered great handling over quick, straight line acceleration (not that it sucks), but in the real world, we corner more than we stoplight drag race.

oblu

One of the big +s of coilovers is being able to corner balance; not really super important in a road car, but I've always felt a noticable difference.

PS. I've been there, done that ... never again. That's one mistake I can definately say I've learned from and will never repeat. Go tuned set if you possibly can.

PPS. Sways alone shouldn't really be used to increase perf, that's not their primary role. They're to be used to adjust the balance of the car ... if an aftermarket bar isn't adjustable, seems like they just beef the hell out of the front end to make it feel like the car's got better turn in, but ultimate you're putting a lot of understeer into the car. Or the other thing they'll do is make the front bar non-adjustable (again beefy as hell) and then make the rear bar adjustable so you can play with the rear end to get some of that understeer back out. Either way, you've just lowered the ultimate grip on anything but glass smooth surfaces because there's now too much roll stiffness.

tanktube67

H&R Springs

C200k W204

Narky, I totally agree with you on the suspension mods. This car definately needs a whole lot of suspension mods for me to feel safe.

I just drove the C like I drive any other company cars(I.E. SL55, F360, enzo, LP, etc) for the first time and good lord, the car understeers like crazy. I know the car wasn't built to have characteristics like above cars mentioned. I felt unsafe for the first time being in the C. I definately need some bushiings+swaybars+and more.... Anyone know of urethane bushing company for w204?

Derspeed

Just curious, what kind of car was it?

jherbias

I have a set of coilovers on my car. The best thing about them is that for the most part you can adjust height and dampening levels. Better suspensions will let you adjust bump and rebound; best suspensions will let you do high speed and low speed bump/rebound. This is their primary advantage over a customized spring + shock combo w/o adjustability. However, for some people they may be too stiff, especially if you buy coilovers that do not use progressive springs (a lot of Japanese coilovers). Honestly, coilovers are overkill if you don't plan to track your car.

Anti-roll bars should be used to only fine-tune the balance of your car. For example, you would make them stiffer in the back for a little more oversteer, and vice-versa. Anti-roll bars INCREASE the load transfer across wheels during cornering, reducing the load on the inner wheel. Anti-roll bars will not affect the handling as much as springs and shocks (obviously the primary components of suspension)

oblu

2001 e46 BMW 330i convertible with sport suspension. Feeling the sting of just buying what was then a 45k car, I cheaped out and put H&R springs on the stock sport suspension shocks (much much stiffer than w204 sports suspension). People were divided about 50/50 on the e46 forums on if that was acceptable or not. I ended up regretting it for the 2wks I had to wait for new shocks to show up.

Ride and handling was fine around town, but high speed (70mph +) bump handling was scary. Even the smallest dips in the road, or if there were a few bumps in a row, at that speed would have it bouncing all over ... stock shocks just couldn't keep up.

At least the rear shocks were easy to swap ... being a convertible I didn't have to tear apart trunk lining to get to the hat bolts.

But having to pull the front strut assembly apart again to replace the shocks with proper shocks, like I should've done in the first place, was 2hrs of my life I'll never get back. That and having the wife ***** at me that I shouldn't have messed with it in the first place (she didn't like the idea of me tearing apart a brand new car ... go figure) and why was I spending so much money blah blah blah; that's always fun.

I know the temptation of how cheap it is to just swap springs. But if you're after better handling and not just a quick, cheap, drop, I'd advise against it. And if you're paying for the labor, it's the same charge to just do springs or to do both springs and shocks. So if you do just springs and decide that it's not working, you're looking at another install charge to put new shocks in too.

Oh, btw, one thing I haven't seen mentioned before on the thread. Eibach springs tend to drop ride height evenly front to back; the car is less raked so because the front wheel opening is always bigger there's more wheel gap in the front than there is in the rear. H&R drops wheel gap evenly front to back, so the stance is a little more rakish (front lowered more than rear). I hope that makes sense. I know you said you weren't doing it for looks, but it still might influence your decision.

Derspeed

Oblu:

I've looked at all of the Eibach and H&R setups on cars of forum members and, in my opinion, the rake of the Eibachs seems fine. .2" isn't that much of a difference. I have owned both brands and I must say, H&Rs are stiffer. Eventhough they say they are made to use with OE struts, I wouldn't. I have used Eibachs with brand new OEs, and they were great. The struts never went bad and I owned the car for 60,000 miles and my friend owned it for another 20,000. For me, the bottom line is, there may not be aftermarket struts out for a while, so I am taking a chance. I trust the struts on the W204. Plus, the suspension on this car seems pretty firm as it is. I was most concerned witht the amount of drop, but since it it's likely less than an inch, it doesn't bother me. If I need to change the struts later, I guess that's what I'll do. So far, noone has complained about using aftermarket springs with OE struts. I guess time will tell.

I definitely see your point though. I am not going for cheap, however, I'm just going for "I want it now."

narky

From everything I've read, and everything my friends (some of whom are mechanical engineers, with one of them having specialized in combustion engines) have told me, the springs should never be replaced alone. Everyone tells me that springs and struts/shocks must be replaced at the same time for the variety of reasons outlined above (excessive wear, one-time installation cost, etc).

But................................ I want it now!

I am simply torn. I'm pretty sure that the "right" thing to do is to wait for a proper coilover set to be released. But I don't see why I shouldn't spend ~$250 right now for a quick drop, and then switch to a coilover setup once it comes out.

The two things stopping me from doing the above are 1. installation cost x2 and 2. the crazy bouncy dangerous suspension dynamics at high speeds that oblu talk about up there. I've see that happen, and it's not good by any means. More than the labor fees that I'd essentially be throwing away, I just don't want to hurt the car's performance and/or put myself and my passengers in danger because I'm too impatient.

Hmm.

C200k W204

to be honest, swapping out just springs is nothing but a drop in height. I was coasting around 60mph around continous curves, and there was three multiple bumps as I was turning on the curve. Not safe at all, this is from experience. So if ultimate handling is what you are seeking, then don't waste money on springs. Wait for the proper setup coilover set. If looking for the clean dropped look for now, then go for it. In the end, it's your car

oblu

That's why suspension stuff is all subjective ... one person's 'just fine' is another's nightmare. I find the w204 suspension pillowy soft (not in a bad way).

I didn't realize there were no full suspension kits for the w204 yet. That's a rough one.

Derspeed

Based on C200K's comments (posted actual experience, I may wait).

Narky, you can get a great suspension set up without resorting to coilovers. My last car had H&Rs and Bilstein struts and it handles really well and the ride is better than my buddy's 335i with the OE sport suspension. A lot of his harshness is due to the run-flats though. Anyway, now I am torn. I have the springs, maybe I'll wait until more people post their experiences or wait for some aftermarket struts.

narky

Derspeed: I am now thinking that perhaps a spring/strut setup will be more than adequate for me, since a coilover setup will be kinda over the top for my uses. I really don't see myself adjusting the suspension too much. First of all, I am going to use the car for primarily one use (transportation), and I sorely lack the knowledge to "tune" my car/suspension correctly even if I were to have the ability to do so (with an adjustable coilover setup).

But then now the problem is that I don't even know how I would go about matching a proper set of springs with a proper set of struts. Ack.

I just want someone to tell me what springs and what struts to get so that I may have better-than-stock handling dynamics (stiffer is okay, but less body roll and better cornering) and a slight drop (maybe 1~1.5 inch).

Any suggestions? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? (who gets that one... )

Derspeed

I have always been happy with H&R springs and Bilstein Sport Struts. Usually a spring manufacturer can tell you which struts to use. Eibach has a pro damper kit to go with their pro kit springs. Koni FSD struts also seem to be popular. They are an OE replacement, but can be used with aftermarket springs .

I bought the Eibachs for this car because Eibach says they are "designed" to be used with OE struts. I am now undecided. I know for a fact, however, H&Rs are stiffer than Eibachs.

Maybe we should start a new thread asking all of the W204 owners who have replaced their springs without replacing the OE struts to give their driving impressions. Would that be beating a dead horse?

narky

I'd love to hear/read about driving impressions of current owners with spring changes.

oblu

Had a matched Koni FSD/Eibach set on my e90 330i. Best described as "okay". I somewhat suspect they didn't do any real damper dyno testing to make sure the spring rates matched damp rates. Strong feeling they just threw their normal springs in the box with a set of dampers and since 'they're supposed to work with OE' called it good.

It worked okay, no bouncing at high speed, but it would get caught out over sharp impacts like manhole covers, etc. It'd initially feel like it was taking the impact and then "bam" it'd jar the whole car.

Pulling springs together with other struts will work, but again, there's been no real engineering there; it's just within an acceptable range.

I know I'm harping on it, but I'd strongly suggest getting a full kit that's designed to work together instead of mix/matching parts.