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Nitrogen for tyres...

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Old 04-05-2009, 07:05 PM
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Nitrogen for tyres...

Hi Guys,

What do you think about Nitrogen used in tyres?...Iv been told its the way to go.

Better Handling
Needs less top ups
Car feels lighter
Old 04-05-2009, 07:09 PM
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It's pointless if you have to pay for it. Air is already 78% nitrogen and you wouldn't notice any difference with 100% nitrogen in normal everyday driving anyway.
Old 04-05-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rixter
Hi Guys,

What do you think about Nitrogen used in tyres?...Iv been told its the way to go.

Better Handling
Needs less top ups
Car feels lighter
The car won't feel lighter, or handle better. Though you shouldn't have to 'top it off' as much as you would with traditional compressed air. I would highly recommend it, even it you had to pay a few dollars for it. Which basically is the labor time for a professional shop to perform the service for you.

The benefits you will have is reduced corrosion to the wheel from oxidation. Reduced rusting of the steel cord body, and tire's belt package. You will also have less drying of the tire's rubber, resulting in dry rot, and eventual tire failure. By default filling tires with nitrogen is a much better way to go.

Originally Posted by AsianML
It's pointless if you have to pay for it. Air is already 78% nitrogen and you wouldn't notice any difference with 100% nitrogen in normal everyday driving anyway.
Regardless of what you say there is a benefit have a higher nitrogen content in the tire. The oxygen carries moisture which causes damage over time to the tire and wheel, especially the rubber and steel in the tire.
Old 04-05-2009, 07:23 PM
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I have it in my 00' C230K.....tire pressure is never off more than 1/2 pound regardless of the temperature or season.I had them filled for free when I got my tires at costco.
Old 04-05-2009, 09:12 PM
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Get it

I purchased my car and drove it home, got up the next morning and with the temperature difference, experienced my first air pressure warning, drove down and had nitrogen put in my tires, almost a year later I still have not received a tire pressure warning.
Something else to consider, why is it mandatory that jet aircraft have nitrogen in their tires as well big trucks, google it and read up on nitrogen in tires and decide for yourself, my advice and experience, get it!
Thats my opinion
Old 04-05-2009, 10:06 PM
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by nukefixer
I purchased my car and drove it home, got up the next morning and with the temperature difference, experienced my first air pressure warning, drove down and had nitrogen put in my tires, almost a year later I still have not received a tire pressure warning.
Something else to consider, why is it mandatory that jet aircraft have nitrogen in their tires as well big trucks, google it and read up on nitrogen in tires and decide for yourself, my advice and experience, get it!
Thats my opinion
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...instead-of-air
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...with-nitrogen/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...o/4302788.html

Nitrogen has its merits, but I still think it's not worth it if you have to pay to get it put in. Our other car had nitrogen put in it when we bought new tires from Costco. We got tires at the same time for the ML but at another place that didn't use nitrogen. It's been about half a year now and I haven't noticed any difference between the two besides the slight fluctuation with temperature in the air-filled tire. Personally I check the pressures whenever I get to dressing the tires after washing the cars anyway so the minute drop in pressure in the air-filled tire wouldn't matter to me anyway. Even if you have nitrogen in them you should still check them.
Old 04-06-2009, 04:57 AM
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What should be the air pressure in w204?
It has to be same in all tyres or different in front / back.
What is the best pressure combination for economical fuel consumption?
Old 04-06-2009, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by hazee
What should be the air pressure in w204?
It has to be same in all tyres or different in front / back.
What is the best pressure combination for economical fuel consumption?
Check your door or filler cap or manual. It (normally) lists all the possible wheel combos for your vehicle with a load index and the pressures.
Old 04-06-2009, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RedG
The car won't feel lighter, or handle better. Though you shouldn't have to 'top it off' as much as you would with traditional compressed air. I would highly recommend it, even it you had to pay a few dollars for it. Which basically is the labor time for a professional shop to perform the service for you.

The benefits you will have is reduced corrosion to the wheel from oxidation. Reduced rusting of the steel cord body, and tire's belt package. You will also have less drying of the tire's rubber, resulting in dry rot, and eventual tire failure. By default filling tires with nitrogen is a much better way to go.



Regardless of what you say there is a benefit have a higher nitrogen content in the tire. The oxygen carries moisture which causes damage over time to the tire and wheel, especially the rubber and steel in the tire.


BS!, I have worked with Daimler for over 12 years now, and I have never seen an airfilled tire with corrosion damages or any other kind of failures.

The benefits are extremely low compared to regular air wich is free of charge.
Old 04-06-2009, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by vic viper
BS!, I have worked with Daimler for over 12 years now, and I have never seen an airfilled tire with corrosion damages or any other kind of failures.

The benefits are extremely low compared to regular air wich is free of charge.
Nitrogen is used in race applications to keep temperatures down inside the tires. Using it on a road car is useless. Show me a measurable difference in performance and I'll eat my hat lol.
Old 04-06-2009, 09:53 AM
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Nitrogen has bigger molecules, thus leakage is kept to minimum. It also runs cooler, and does not get heated up as much as air, thus the pressure in the tire is kept constant.
Old 04-06-2009, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tategoi
Nitrogen has bigger molecules, thus leakage is kept to minimum. It also runs cooler, and does not get heated up as much as air, thus the pressure in the tire is kept constant.

Yes, and how often do you need to check your tire pressure when filled with air? Remember, the air we breathe is still made of 78% nitrogen.

And what if you have nitrogen in your tires and want to fill up? not something you can do just anywhere.
Old 04-06-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vic viper
BS!, I have worked with Daimler for over 12 years now, and I have never seen an airfilled tire with corrosion damages or any other kind of failures.

The benefits are extremely low compared to regular air wich is free of charge.
I have seen tens of thousands of failed tires in my career and I've seen quite a number of older tires failed as a result of degradation of the internal components of a tire. The benefits of a nitrogen filled tire are huge compared to a traditionally air filled option. You really think that it would be used in heavy off the road, racing, and aviation applications for no particular reason? You really think that the benefits seen there wouldn't be seen also in the most abundant application nitrogen tire filling could ever see?

Originally Posted by vic viper
Yes, and how often do you need to check your tire pressure when filled with air? Remember, the air we breathe is still made of 78% nitrogen.

And what if you have nitrogen in your tires and want to fill up? not something you can do just anywhere.
Nitrogen inflation is not a replacement for proper maintenance, neither is tire pressure monitors. Nitrogen is however a great benefit for everyone simply because NOT EVERYONE checks there air pressure regularly. The the benefit that nitrogen is a slower permeation through the rubber gives those that don't regularly maintain their vehicles a safer vehicle to drive on a daily basis.
Old 04-06-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by RedG
I have seen tens of thousands of failed tires in my career and I've seen quite a number of older tires failed as a result of degradation of the internal components of a tire. The benefits of a nitrogen filled tire are huge compared to a traditionally air filled option. You really think that it would be used in heavy off the road, racing, and aviation applications for no particular reason? You really think that the benefits seen there wouldn't be seen also in the most abundant application nitrogen tire filling could ever see?



Nitrogen inflation is not a replacement for proper maintenance, neither is tire pressure monitors. Nitrogen is however a great benefit for everyone simply because NOT EVERYONE checks there air pressure regularly. The the benefit that nitrogen is a slower permeation through the rubber gives those that don't regularly maintain their vehicles a safer vehicle to drive on a daily basis.

I assume that you work in the tire business?, because these guys are the only ones I have seen that actually believe that less than 22% more nitrogen in a tire really make any significant difference.
The fact that tire shops make money on selling nitrogen to poor clueless customers makes it even more important for them to convince everyone.
Old 04-06-2009, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by vic viper
I assume that you work in the tire business?, because these guys are the only ones I have seen that actually believe that less than 22% more nitrogen in a tire really make any significant difference.
The fact that tire shops make money on selling nitrogen to poor clueless customers makes it even more important for them to convince everyone.
You are ridiculous in thinking that it doesn't. I've talked to people who've used Nitrogen in tires for 40 years in automobile tires. NASCAR went to nitrogen back in the 1960s. You really seriously think that its just a gimmick and another thing just to make some money?

I would challenge that you put it to the test, and then tell me what you actually found instead of trumpeting that it is a profiteering scheme of tire retailers....

The fact you think that consumers are complete clueless in this day and age your deluding yourself. People (read: consumers) more than ever are informed or want to be informed about what they are buying, specifically and exactly what their benefits are for buying each and everything they buy.

Have you not gone online to research a TV, toaster, microwave, automobile, shoes, watch, clothes, etc...? You think people don't go online or try to do some research as to the benefits of nitrogen tire inflation?

If you don't like it fine, I really don't care and it won't change the facts already present that corroborate my side. Also you might like this:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...nitrogen-.html



Tires - Nitrogen air loss study

Filling tires with nitrogen rather than air is becoming a common practice in the replacement tire market. This service offers tire dealers another avenue for making money while also promoting safety. The claimed safety benefits often include the potential for reducing air loss compared to an air-filled tire. Maintaining proper inflation can help prevent tire overheating; promote optimum tread life; and reduce rubber aging and wheel corrosion. The use of nitrogen in large truck fleets and the commercial tire industry are well documented and support these claims.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has seen reduced aging of tires filled with nitrogen. Though the data does support that passenger car tires could benefit by all the claims made for nitrogen, tire manufacturers say that they already design tires to perform well with air inflation. And while nitrogen will do no harm, manufacturers say that they don't see the need to use nitrogen, which generally adds $5 or more per tire charge.

Consumer Reports
wanted to find out if nitrogen is worth the price, so we purchased a Nitrogen Inflation System and checked out how well the inflation held up over a one year period. We evaluated pairs of 31 tire models of H- and V-speed rated, all-season tires used in our tread wear test from 2006. We filled one tire per model with air and the other with nitrogen. The test was quite simple: fill and set the inflation pressure at room temperature to 30 psi (pounds per square inch); set the tire outdoors for one year; and then recheck the inflation pressure at room temperature after a one year period.
The tires were filled and deflated three times with nitrogen to purge the air out of the tire cavity. We also used an oxygen analyzer to be sure we had 95-percent nitrogen purity in the tire--the claimed purity limit of our nitrogen system, which generates nitrogen gas from ambient air.

The test started on September 20, 2006 and the final measurements were taken on September 20, 2007. The results show nitrogen does reduce pressure loss over time, but the reduction is only a 1.3 psi difference from air-filled tires. The average loss of air-filled tires was just 3.5 psi from the initial 30 pressure setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an average of 2.2 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. More important, all tires lost air pressure regardless of the inflation medium, so consumers should check their tires' air pressure routinely. No evaluation was done to assess the aging claim.
Bottom line: Overall, consumers can use nitrogen and might enjoy the slight improvement in air retention provided, but it's not a substitute for regular inflation checks.
More:
http://www.nitrofill.com/documents/B...-Inflation.pdf

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed...ion/index.html

Nitrogen Tire Inflation - The Nitrogen Debate

By Jay Chen



For a while now, I've been debating back and forth on the use of Nitrogen gas for filling tires. Race teams almost exclusively use it for that slight advantage that it brings over air filled tires, which justifies the costs. But that's racing, where the difference between a more aerodynamic hood latch is cause for controversy. Then Nissan announced that the new GTR would come with Nitrogen filled tires to enhance its high speed stability. Maybe that's just supercar hoopla, but the fact that Nitrogen is being considered for use on passenger cars by the OEMs says something. The matter was brought up again as some local BMW dealers are now offering to fill tires with Nitrogen as a free service, which means now it's dirt cheap.
So, does that mean everyone should be running on Nitrogen just because racers use it, and now that it's affordable? I'm still on the fence about this even though there are definite advantages to using Nitrogen gas. We have to get some background on what gas does in order to understand why Nitrogen might be advantageous.
Regardless of what gases we fill our tires with, the purpose of the gas is to both support the weight of the vehicle, add some spring and damping, and help maintain the tire's toroid shape. Anything in a gaseous state does this well since a gas can conform to any shape and will distribute pressure forces uniformly. We could even use liquids to evenly distribute the force, but that would make for a lot of unsprung weight. Liquids are also essentially incompressible, which would be an issue if the tire hits a bump that reduces its internal volume, turning your wheels and tires into water grenades from hell.
Gasses are lighter and can compress, which is why we use them. There is exactly the same pressure pushing against every square inch inside the tire and against the wheels. The pressure pushing out is always uniform, so that the tire is always evenly loaded. Having a consistent pressure distribution is what maintains the even tension on the hoop that the rubber forms around the wheel; it's this hoop stress that really carries the weight of the car, not the sidewalls.
But because gasses can compress, it also means they can expand. Since the gases inside a tire are held under constant volume and mass conditions, it means tire pressure can only go up as temperatures increase, which we see all the time at the track.
This brings us to the physical properties of Nitrogen. For most intents and purposes, we treat Nitrogen as an inert gas, even though it's not a real noble gas. It has a lower molecular weight than air, by about one gram for every 22.4 liters under standard temperature and pressure conditions. It's also not a melting pot of other gasses like air, which is made up of 78.08 percent Nitrogen, 20.95 percent Oxygen, 0.93 percent Argon, and a bunch of other trace elements. Even though air is mostly Nitrogen, the Oxygen in it, which are larger molecules and have more atomic mass, is what makes air just slightly heavier than Nitrogen. In most other aspects, air shares almost identical properties with Nitrogen since that's what it's mostly made of.
So, let's do some back of the envelope calculations just to see what the differences might be between air and Nitrogen. Take a hypothetical 205/50/15 track tire that has a tread surface temperature of 170 F. Without knowing the heat transfer rates of the tire, we'll just assume that the internal gas temperature is about 120 F. A rough calculation of the volume inside comes with about 19.6 liters of gas volume inside the wheel recess and tire. Under the Ideal Gas Law, this comes to about 0.103 pounds of gas if filled with Nitrogen and 0.107 pounds if filled with air, a hair splitting difference of 0.004 pounds or 1.6 grams in unsprung and rotational mass.
You also probably won't like that that last bag of chips you bought was filled with nitrogen also. Done to help preserve the chips from moisture and going stale.

Last edited by RedG; 04-06-2009 at 11:48 AM.
Old 04-06-2009, 11:44 AM
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG
You are ridiculous in thinking that it doesn't. I've talked to people who've used Nitrogen in tires for 40 years in automobile tires. NASCAR went to nitrogen back in the 1960s. You really seriously think that its just a gimmick and another thing just to make some money?

I would challenge that you put it to the test, and then tell me what you actually found instead of trumpeting that it is a profiteering scheme of tire retailers....

The fact you think that consumers are complete clueless in this day and age your deluding yourself. People (read: consumers) more than ever are informed or want to be informed about what they are buying, specifically and exactly what their benefits are for buying each and everything they buy.

Have you not gone online to research a TV, toaster, microwave, automobile, shoes, watch, clothes, etc...? You think people don't go online or try to do some research as to the benefits of nitrogen tire inflation?

If you don't like it fine, I really don't care and it won't change the facts already present that corroborate my side. Also you might like this:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...nitrogen-.html



More:
http://www.nitrofill.com/documents/B...-Inflation.pdf

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed...ion/index.html



You also probably won't like that that last bag of chips you bought was filled with nitrogen also. Done to help preserve the chips from moisture and going stale.
The average temperature for a NASCAR tire is 200 degrees Fahrenheit and they race at speeds of up to 200 mph all day long. The same can be said for the Nissan GTR. You cannot compare nitrogen use in racing/aviation applications and passenger car applications. They just don't see the same types of conditions to be able to compare them.

I'm not saying nitrogen is a gimmick. It definitely has its merits, but you just won't see much of the bigger advantages in everyday driving.

How long does it take for an average tire to degrade to the point where it's not safe to use anymore?
Old 04-06-2009, 12:23 PM
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@RedG, if the customers are as smart and informed as you say, shouldnt this also mean that they are aware of the fact that the tire pressure needs to be checked every now and then?

And the chart above displays a average pressure loss difference of 1.2 PSI between air and N over one year.

1.2 PSI ladies and gentlemen, that is 0.08 (zero point zero eight) kg or bar for us metric users.


"The benefits of a nitrogen filled tire are huge compared to a traditionally air filled option."

Huge?, yeah right.
Old 04-06-2009, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AsianML
The average temperature for a NASCAR tire is 200 degrees Fahrenheit and they race at speeds of up to 200 mph all day long. The same can be said for the Nissan GTR. You cannot compare nitrogen use in racing/aviation applications and passenger car applications. They just don't see the same types of conditions to be able to compare them.

I'm not saying nitrogen is a gimmick. It definitely has its merits, but you just won't see much of the bigger advantages in everyday driving.

How long does it take for an average tire to degrade to the point where it's not safe to use anymore?
I never stated that the benefits that passenger car service sees are as great as those that severe duty and racing applications see. Tires should be replaced ever 6-8 years maximum, regardless of tread. The rubber degrades to a point where its potential risk or tread separation is more likely than not.

Originally Posted by vic viper
@RedG, if the customers are as smart and informed as you say, shouldnt this also mean that they are aware of the fact that the tire pressure needs to be checked every now and then?
Most people I talk to are well aware that they should check their pressure regularly, and have been for decades. Just because you are smart or informed about what you should do to properly maintain your tires, does that mean that most people actively check their tire pressures regularly?

And the chart above displays a average pressure loss difference of 1.2 PSI between air and N over one year.

1.2 PSI ladies and gentlemen, that is 0.08 (zero point zero eight) kg or bar for us metric users.

"The benefits of a nitrogen filled tire are huge compared to a traditionally air filled option."

Huge?, yeah right.
You shouldn't marginalize that 1.2psi average. Low air pressure in a tire is directly responsible for 50%+ of the tire failures on the road today. Besides the facts of tire failure from low air pressure, you also have poor tire life, and accidents directly as a result of low air pressure and degraded vehicle handling.

Have you ever actually driven a car with severely low air pressure (25psi or less)? The benefit that nitrogen doesn't loose (on average of 1.2psi for the above tests sake) that may translate into preserved tire life, and more importantly your own life because of a proper tire pressure. And that is just the average, don't discount that many of those tires had quite a bit more than just 1.2psi of difference over the year test.
Old 04-06-2009, 12:55 PM
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It would appear that the much hyped benefits are quite minimal. In that case, if the tire retailer provide nitrogen fill as a standard feature at no additional charge (like Costco for example), go for it, otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much justification for paying extra.
Old 04-06-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by flagman
It would appear that the much hyped benefits are quite minimal. In that case, if the tire retailer provide nitrogen fill as a standard feature at no additional charge (like Costco for example), go for it, otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much justification for paying extra.

Old 04-06-2009, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG
Most people I talk to are well aware that they should check their pressure regularly, and have been for decades. Just because you are smart or informed about what you should do to properly maintain your tires, does that mean that most people actively check their tire pressures regularly?
Well, you're a dumbass if you don't check it at least every month. Better mileage, traction, less wear and road noises.
Filling up with air is easy. Filling it with nitrogen... Oh wait, I haven't seen a gas station where I can fill up on nitrogen. Thus useless.

Bigger molecules? Molecular size is a bit tricky. As a quick comparison, we can use the covalent radius defined as 1/2 the distance between to identical covalently bonding nuclei. This is measured in picometers (1 pm= 1x 10-12 m). Nitrogen's covalent radius is 73pm so the length of a nitrogen molecule ought to be 4 X 75pm or 300 pm. A molecule of oxygen ought to be just a shade smaller 4 X 73pm or 292pm. So an oxygen molecule ought to be a little less than 3% smaller than a nitrogen molecule.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/fe..._just_hot_air/

Nothing more than a gimmick in my book.
Pro and cons just don't add up at all.
Old 04-06-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ctgilles
Well, you're a dumbass if you don't check it at least every month. Better mileage, traction, less wear and road noises.
Filling up with air is easy. Filling it with nitrogen... Oh wait, I haven't seen a gas station where I can fill up on nitrogen. Thus useless.

Bigger molecules? Molecular size is a bit tricky. As a quick comparison, we can use the covalent radius defined as 1/2 the distance between to identical covalently bonding nuclei. This is measured in picometers (1 pm= 1x 10-12 m). Nitrogen's covalent radius is 73pm so the length of a nitrogen molecule ought to be 4 X 75pm or 300 pm. A molecule of oxygen ought to be just a shade smaller 4 X 73pm or 292pm. So an oxygen molecule ought to be a little less than 3% smaller than a nitrogen molecule.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/fe..._just_hot_air/

Nothing more than a gimmick in my book.
Pro and cons just don't add up at all.
You cite a article of a person that doesn't know the difference between what is printed on the tire and what the vehicle's recommended pressure is. I know you can do better than that. Though I'm sure you will say I'm a kook, and I'm discounting your stupendous discord of an argument.

Try it, I dare you.
Old 04-06-2009, 09:57 PM
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