Sportstick

This is also correct and recalls my 77 BMW 320i which had significant trailing throttle oversteer. As long as the rear of the car was loaded under constant throttle or slight acceleration, it held through turns, but lift the pedal and the rear would break free. I learned this the hard way on an entrance cloverleaf. BMW learned too. I removed the bar and installed slightly stiffer Bilsteins up front, and soon after, BMW had done similarly, as I recall (although I don't remember if they thinned the bar or completely removed it in subsequent years). The result was a car where I could let the rear hang out if I wanted to by feathering the pedal just a bit, but the dramatic surprise factor of facing my point of origin if I had to slow down was gone.

mhad2480

OP, are you asian? Just curious, , my fiance has a similar problem. I think it might be due to the fact that she's Vietnamese and doesn't have enough a$$ to keep her planted in the seat. Kidding, just trying to lighten the mood here in this thread.

Scat01

[QUOTE=Vai;5032591]. My next car will be a BMW for sure and now there is a new one in the family so I will be able to really make and educated decision. Also, please note that I'm not saying the C-class isn't a great car because it certainly is. Every one has a different idea as to what they are looking for in a car.QUOTE]

Interesting and very informative thread...

While I cannot speak to the anti-sway bars, I can speak from experience regarding the handling of this C350 compared to BMW 3 series cars. My previous 3 cars were 3 series BMW's (I bought a CTS during this time as well due to the marketing intrigue of "the size and performance of a 5 series for the cost of a 3 series, still have this car actually)...Back on track, I owned a 1994 325is that I wish I never sold - amazing car, a 1997 M3 that I made the mistake of buying with an automatic trans and it was less that exhilarating to drive (only 240 hp) and the wheels bent if you addressed a speed bump at more than 5mph, and finally I ordered a new 2004 330ci that was another influence of later buying American (thats where the CTS came in) due to endless issues including replacing the entire steering rack at the tune of $4,600 bucks, the typical water pump issue at 600+ dollars, ignition switch and whatever else they decided to change at the time for another 450+...)

Oh yeah, the handling...I can honestly say the difference is so minimal in the handling of the C350 compared to any of the BMW's (more so with the M3, that was a plus in that car) it is not even worth mentioning - I think this MB handles very well, I drive hard, off ramps and on ramps are a pleasure, windy back roads are a blast, never feel even close to not being in complete control at any speed....No advantage to going to BMW 3 series unless you are looking at getting into a 335 with sport package..just my opinion.

kevink2

I agreed .. already

Sportstick

[QUOTE=Scat01;5032882]...or if you want a manual transmission on any of their models. 328i with M Sport package for 2013 model year is intriguing.

splinter

Never claimed to have read his work. Not sure which other portions you authored, although you’re indeed correct.
Would have been more appropriate to post I affected its effects by the aforementioned adjustments instead.
Semantics perhaps, but technical accuracy is important to many here, myself included. I regret the error.

From How to Make Your Car Handle:

You raise several valid points. Excellent DIY, btw.

It was that crude suspension component comment that stuck a nerve. Your W204 still has its OE F&R pair, yes?
Automobile manufacturers have seen fit to install anti-roll bars in their vehicles for many decades. They could have saved millions of dollars by not having done so.
Some automotive engineers go by a slogan made famous by GM’s Charles Kettering, “Parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems.”

Of course they do reduce articulation and the ‘independence’ of any suspension. To achieve similar road holding capabilities and ‘feel’ from (production/road-going) machines without them requires wheel rates the general public would find most distasteful, resulting in unsold product. In-house and aftermarket tuners typically increase spring rates, anti-roll bar stiffness, damping, and specify reduced deflection bushings and tire aspect ratios from the more pedestrian offerings in an effort to improve handling. No revelation there. If they could do it without anti-roll bars, they would. When a brick on the road or pothole rears its ugly head, all bets are off.

There are many schools of thought to properly exploiting and maximizing vehicle dynamics (and the tires’ adhesion) for a particular purpose. Several actually pan out. To be sure, it’s an interesting applied science and hobby. We likely agree more than you know. Helped a friend get his FWD Honda ‘round more quickly during a local autocross by backing off its front anti-roll bar’s links. Went measurably faster at the now-defunct Riverslide after reducing its effective (transverse leaf & bar) wheel rate in my erstwhile Z51 ‘Vette. Street manners were a damn sight better, too. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Next time you’re out this way, I’d enjoy chasing yours during our HPDEs.

kevink2

"Disingenuous" did not sit well with me, and I typed more than I wanted to. The oem bars are reasonably sized, and carefully designed to work with other suspension components. They limit the roll to a reasonable amount, and tweek the roll stiffness balance. I don't tear them out of my oem cars in a rage

And many aftermarket SB suppliers know that the aveage Joe thinks bigger is better, as I've witnessed too many times. That full set-up you described would not be the best choice for winters in Utah, etc, but would work great on a smooth race track.

I'm currently going from a 19mm to a 22mm rear bar on another (fwd) car, not to decrease roll, or increase response, but I calculated that it would be just right to neutralize the oem understeer near the limit.

Note that what was suggested in this thread was tossing on a set of sway bars, which prompted me to show the bars in their worst light.

This actually happened to me as I described it, except it was a spare tire that appeared in an instant when I was trying to get around the 18 wheeler, to avoid just this kind of thing. I was on a busy I-95S in my 924T, bars and slicks on, heading for Summit Point Raceway. Rather than just the one wheel absorbing the shock, the big front bar jeked the whole front end up, slammed my head against the top of the car, and came back don in an instant ... sounded like a shotgun went off. No damage .. Lucky.

I do appreciate the friendly invite, and have dreamed of running those famous tracks. But I'd have to warn you, as intimidating as that row of muscle and performance cars was at the track staging lane, I was only humbled by any Viper that may have been at the track that day.

.

Vai

Scat01.....You most likely have a different experience with the C350 as it is RWD. My Dad has a C230 Kompressor (RWD) and that thing is a blast to drive. Tight steering and amazing around the ramps. He isn't a big fan of my 4Matic, says the steering is to loose in addition to being numb and sterile. I agree. It's great to get feedback like yours because although my lease isn't up for year I take forever to make such a big decision as I am a perfectionist. If it wasn't for this Northeast weather I would never drive a 4Matic.

Sportstick

You don't need to. RWD with high quality winter tires has been doing just fine in our Michigan winters for several years.

getno

Hahaha, Dodge neon + bucket seats + four point seatbelts will handle better than a C63 bro

Scat01

That is a good point - but I also live in the Northeast (NJ) and all my cars have been RWD for the past 20 years, never had an issue with any of them, sounds like Sportstick is in the same situation now as well.

Your decision, but I would not rule out the RWD C350, it handles just fine during winter conditions, and you can enjoy it big time for the other 9 months..

kevink2

The 18's have a shorter sidewall vs 17's, and will give you quicker response to steering input (and a bit stiffer ride). You can also increase the fun factor cheaply by upgrading the rear anti sway bar to the oem C350 or C63 part. We'd have to check the diameters.

You still need to test drive another C300 and a BMW to see why you are not laterally supported by your seat.

.

cardalums

Having owned multiple Porsches, I must say I have a different opinion. My MB doesn't handle as well in the mountain curves as my Porsche. However, the W204 has an amazing balance of handling and comfort, which is why I got it.

Shamoon

Hello Folks,
I am a newbie to this BBS, but truly appreciate the insights. Whilst the handling/ride compromise of my 08 C300 leans towards ride, I found the handling fairly acceptable. However, kevink2's suggestion of OEM C350 or C63 rear anti-sway intrigues me. Has anyone checked the diameters? I @ssume the bigger bar would improve the numbers on a skidpad, but is it worth it...?

Loud068

I am coming from an E46 M3 and while my MB C300 does not handle as well, it does an extremely good job considering its weight and added doors. With the right tires, I would feel just as confident taking turns as I did in my M3, partially because of the AWD.

NewtwoMB

"I used to charge my staff a quarter every time they said, "I'm like" to precede a prior quotation or feeling they were attempting to communicate instead of the proper, "I said", "I thought", "I felt", "I believed", etc."

Way to go Sportstick! I am so sick of hearing that. Its probably more prevalent in the USA than the UK but believe me its heard enough here for it to send most most people, at least those who had an education, quite delirious.

Sorry for being off-topic.

xjmoe83