RePost from Audio and Electronics - Guru Needed!
08-06-2013, 10:05 AM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
RePost from Audio and Electronics - Guru Needed!
Sorry to repost this. Since this is a specific W204 install, I thought I might get better visibility here. Thanks.
This weekend I installed a Pioneer GM-8604 and Infinity BassLink sub as the first step in upgrading the sound in my car. Speaker install will come next. I have a few questions and a few observations. I have a 2010 C300 Sport/4MATIC w/NAV and no HK.
First, the observations. The amp DRASTICALLY improved the sound of the stock speakers without the subwoofer. The low end was a marked improvement. I mounted the amp in the trunk next to the spare tire, perfect fit. I have to finish it with a piece of painted ply attached to the battery tray and the amp attached to it.
The Pioneer amp will take the high level speaker inputs.
The biggest part of the job is removing the trim and glove box. This is the first time I've done this in this car so there are times when it takes 20 minutes to figure out something that should take 20 seconds to execute. Like how the 12V connector at the top of the glove box detaches from the socket. Ugh. If I ever remove the glove box again it'll take 20 seconds now that I know.
I bought 100' of 4 conductor 14ga. wire from ebay from Monoprice. I ran 1 run to each door, cut the speaker wire and ran 2 of the 4 conductors from the head unit back to the amp with the other 2 serving the speakers from the amp. This was the best decision I made in this install. It made the wiring very easy.
The wiring channel was a challenge as they're a few points that were close to impossible to access without pulling the front seats. Until I got my Dremel out and slit the top which opened it up. I then resealed it with a good high quality black duct tape and it went much easier. I know some won't like this approach but it worked for me. I made the decision after I realized that the top of the wire channel is thin "hinged" plastic and there isn't much integrity anyway.
I ran my Remote Power line for both the amp and the sub to the SAM module in an open fuse port. The problem is that this module must go live when you unlock the car as I'm getting three "Bass Thumps" when I open the door and the thumps are in a specific pattern. This leads me to my questions.
Questions:
In the Engineering Menu I believe I saw a line for "External Amp". What is the function here? Does it create a delay in the audio out to give the amp a chance to start before the Head Unit provides input? Does it delay the Remote Power for the external amp therefore removing this "thump"?
The Factory Amp Turn On, wire 16 of the 16 wire plug on the Head Unit, is a MOST lead. Can I run a regular wire to the amp as the remote power lead?
Thanks for the input.
K
This weekend I installed a Pioneer GM-8604 and Infinity BassLink sub as the first step in upgrading the sound in my car. Speaker install will come next. I have a few questions and a few observations. I have a 2010 C300 Sport/4MATIC w/NAV and no HK.
First, the observations. The amp DRASTICALLY improved the sound of the stock speakers without the subwoofer. The low end was a marked improvement. I mounted the amp in the trunk next to the spare tire, perfect fit. I have to finish it with a piece of painted ply attached to the battery tray and the amp attached to it.
The Pioneer amp will take the high level speaker inputs.
The biggest part of the job is removing the trim and glove box. This is the first time I've done this in this car so there are times when it takes 20 minutes to figure out something that should take 20 seconds to execute. Like how the 12V connector at the top of the glove box detaches from the socket. Ugh. If I ever remove the glove box again it'll take 20 seconds now that I know.
I bought 100' of 4 conductor 14ga. wire from ebay from Monoprice. I ran 1 run to each door, cut the speaker wire and ran 2 of the 4 conductors from the head unit back to the amp with the other 2 serving the speakers from the amp. This was the best decision I made in this install. It made the wiring very easy.
The wiring channel was a challenge as they're a few points that were close to impossible to access without pulling the front seats. Until I got my Dremel out and slit the top which opened it up. I then resealed it with a good high quality black duct tape and it went much easier. I know some won't like this approach but it worked for me. I made the decision after I realized that the top of the wire channel is thin "hinged" plastic and there isn't much integrity anyway.
I ran my Remote Power line for both the amp and the sub to the SAM module in an open fuse port. The problem is that this module must go live when you unlock the car as I'm getting three "Bass Thumps" when I open the door and the thumps are in a specific pattern. This leads me to my questions.
Questions:In the Engineering Menu I believe I saw a line for "External Amp". What is the function here? Does it create a delay in the audio out to give the amp a chance to start before the Head Unit provides input? Does it delay the Remote Power for the external amp therefore removing this "thump"?
The Factory Amp Turn On, wire 16 of the 16 wire plug on the Head Unit, is a MOST lead. Can I run a regular wire to the amp as the remote power lead?
Thanks for the input.
K
08-06-2013, 10:17 PM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
The Bass Link sub should have built-in signal detection for automatic turn on/off. Infinity should have included a crowbar type circuit that detects unstabilized internal voltages that clamps the output so that there is no turn-on "thump".
The "Turn On" wire should be exactly that, a separate wire that performs similarly to signal detection, when activated causes the amp to draw power from the main high-current voltage source (where 10/12 gauge wire similar to that feeding the cigarette lighter is used, there is a voltage feed in the right rear side of the trunk). .
If you find the Bass Link doesnt turn on when a high level signal is applied, then this may be another solution. Suggest doing a temporary wiring of the sub to make sure it turns on and off just using the leads to any speaker as input to the Bass Link.
The "External Amp" in the Engineering Menu as far as I understand (I haven't played with it) is probably a shelving and frequency cut-off option, where you can program, digitally, the relative volume sent to an external amp and enable high-pass or low-pass filtering. This output may not be available on the Audio20 headunit through wiring, perhaps only on the Audio50.
"Improvement" in the sound probably is due to the difference in RMS watts available with the Pioneer which gives you 6dB more SPL (100 vs. 25 watts-per-channel OEM). Note that a difference of even 1dB in SPL (sound pressure level) in a double-blind test WITH THE SAME SPEAKER will result in the listener saying "Speaker A is superior to Speaker B" even though both A & B are the SAME speaker, except for the 1dB increase. LOL.
That same 6dB can be obtained, and with a tremendous increase in definition and quality, just by replacing the cheap horrible $1-for-all-8 OEM speakers with 2 ohm high-efficiency speakers, and get that 6dB boost for free. Here is a much-viewed reference thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...r-upgrade.html
News: A recent Cnet review of the 2013 GLK (which used many of the W204 components in the past) says that the sound of the stock Audio20 system is greatly improved, the reviewer thought that the Merc SUV he was driving actually had the HK Logic 7 system installed, until he looked at the spec sheet. I will have to go and audition a new GLK stereo before I pass judgement.
The "Turn On" wire should be exactly that, a separate wire that performs similarly to signal detection, when activated causes the amp to draw power from the main high-current voltage source (where 10/12 gauge wire similar to that feeding the cigarette lighter is used, there is a voltage feed in the right rear side of the trunk). .
If you find the Bass Link doesnt turn on when a high level signal is applied, then this may be another solution. Suggest doing a temporary wiring of the sub to make sure it turns on and off just using the leads to any speaker as input to the Bass Link.
The "External Amp" in the Engineering Menu as far as I understand (I haven't played with it) is probably a shelving and frequency cut-off option, where you can program, digitally, the relative volume sent to an external amp and enable high-pass or low-pass filtering. This output may not be available on the Audio20 headunit through wiring, perhaps only on the Audio50.
"Improvement" in the sound probably is due to the difference in RMS watts available with the Pioneer which gives you 6dB more SPL (100 vs. 25 watts-per-channel OEM). Note that a difference of even 1dB in SPL (sound pressure level) in a double-blind test WITH THE SAME SPEAKER will result in the listener saying "Speaker A is superior to Speaker B" even though both A & B are the SAME speaker, except for the 1dB increase. LOL.
That same 6dB can be obtained, and with a tremendous increase in definition and quality, just by replacing the cheap horrible $1-for-all-8 OEM speakers with 2 ohm high-efficiency speakers, and get that 6dB boost for free. Here is a much-viewed reference thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...r-upgrade.html
News: A recent Cnet review of the 2013 GLK (which used many of the W204 components in the past) says that the sound of the stock Audio20 system is greatly improved, the reviewer thought that the Merc SUV he was driving actually had the HK Logic 7 system installed, until he looked at the spec sheet. I will have to go and audition a new GLK stereo before I pass judgement.
Last edited by Acapulco Bill; 08-06-2013 at 10:57 PM.
08-07-2013, 11:34 AM
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Bill, thanks for the input. It's great to have your expertise on this site as a resource. I find that there isn't just a volume increase, but also an increase in the low end without any eq adjustment. I typically run fairly flat, maybe -1 to 2 on bass depending on a recording's engineering. Once I know more about the External Amp I'll post it for the greater good.
Thanks again.
K
Thanks again.
K
08-07-2013, 12:02 PM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
The Pioneer should have a much higher damping factor than the stock Audio20 headunit (eg. lower internal resistance). As the cheap OEM speakers have a very stiff surround and spider, could be that this extra "push" the Pioneer amp is capable of, regardless of the watts of output, results in better cone movement.
A practical example of this are tube amplifiers with transformer-coupled output vs. a modern transistor amplifier. The bass in tube amplifiers, with damping factors typically of between 3 and 10 produce a loose floppy bass sound and do not work well with stiff-surround drivers. Transistor power amps typically have damping factors in excess of 100 and some are 1000, (meaning the amp has the capacity to overpower the resistance of the cone to move, and defeats "back EMF" - electro-motive force - as the speaker itself generates a reverse voltage and current because the spring of the cone surround pushes back against the coil and magnet, the coil therefore generates a backwards current the same as an electrical generator).
The Audio20 however has a low damping factor, perhaps 25 or less according to how it sounds, and this lack of "push" cannot compensate for the stiff surround of the speaker cones. Which is another reason why the Infinity Kappa upgrade works so well, the surrounds are soft butyl rubber and combined with the loose spider which centers the voicecoil, are very easy for the stock headunit to drive.
In any case, a better, more-featured aftermarket unit (and there are so very few for the W204, not like the BMW E46/90/92) will certainly improve things, just upgrade the stock speakers in the process. The Bass Link is, IMO, a great unit but inconvenient to install in the C class, besides the shape, if yours as also the passive radiator, it will have to be installed straight-up on the floor or upside-down hung from the package shelf, and its height will eat into your trunk space. Good luck!
A practical example of this are tube amplifiers with transformer-coupled output vs. a modern transistor amplifier. The bass in tube amplifiers, with damping factors typically of between 3 and 10 produce a loose floppy bass sound and do not work well with stiff-surround drivers. Transistor power amps typically have damping factors in excess of 100 and some are 1000, (meaning the amp has the capacity to overpower the resistance of the cone to move, and defeats "back EMF" - electro-motive force - as the speaker itself generates a reverse voltage and current because the spring of the cone surround pushes back against the coil and magnet, the coil therefore generates a backwards current the same as an electrical generator).
The Audio20 however has a low damping factor, perhaps 25 or less according to how it sounds, and this lack of "push" cannot compensate for the stiff surround of the speaker cones. Which is another reason why the Infinity Kappa upgrade works so well, the surrounds are soft butyl rubber and combined with the loose spider which centers the voicecoil, are very easy for the stock headunit to drive.
In any case, a better, more-featured aftermarket unit (and there are so very few for the W204, not like the BMW E46/90/92) will certainly improve things, just upgrade the stock speakers in the process. The Bass Link is, IMO, a great unit but inconvenient to install in the C class, besides the shape, if yours as also the passive radiator, it will have to be installed straight-up on the floor or upside-down hung from the package shelf, and its height will eat into your trunk space. Good luck!
