Oil in the air intake on direct injection engines?
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Regardless, that nasty slug would of been burnt in your engine which definitely doesn't help it..
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Audi's exhaust tips are always black because those 2.0/1.8T love burning oil which is probably why VW/Audi seem to have the most carbon build up issues. Yes the temperatures would have to be really high for large carbon particles but the key is the drive it hard with quality fuel since it was new/low mileage to prevent the build up or at least slow it down, once you have a lot of carbon already built up it's too late and taking it apart to clean it is the only way.
I had this issue at around 180k with ping happening under load. I looked down the spark plug hole with a boroscope and it was pretty dirty. The car was always ran with quality high octane fuel and I use chevron twice a year. With new sparkplugs/MAF and no check engine, I knew it was soem kind of carbon issu in the combustion chamber so I ran sea foam threw the intake, twice and never heard pinging again. Looking with my boroscope, there was definitely a difference but just the fact it made it stop pinging is proof on its own. Note that it was a very minimal ping, happened only after long drives or under certain temperatures and acceleration.
Cats also seem ok even tho the first time I sea foamed it, the smoke was ridiculous, the second time wasn't as drastic.
Anyways, all this I believe was caused because of Mercedes poor design of the PCV which lets a lot of oil into the intake and eventually into the head and combustion chamber, this is why I also run a catch can ever since and the carbon doesn't stick to the engine as easily, I know this because I look down my intake manifold and throttle body every oil change and there they are no long covered in a mist of oil.
I had this issue at around 180k with ping happening under load. I looked down the spark plug hole with a boroscope and it was pretty dirty. The car was always ran with quality high octane fuel and I use chevron twice a year. With new sparkplugs/MAF and no check engine, I knew it was soem kind of carbon issu in the combustion chamber so I ran sea foam threw the intake, twice and never heard pinging again. Looking with my boroscope, there was definitely a difference but just the fact it made it stop pinging is proof on its own. Note that it was a very minimal ping, happened only after long drives or under certain temperatures and acceleration.
Cats also seem ok even tho the first time I sea foamed it, the smoke was ridiculous, the second time wasn't as drastic.
Anyways, all this I believe was caused because of Mercedes poor design of the PCV which lets a lot of oil into the intake and eventually into the head and combustion chamber, this is why I also run a catch can ever since and the carbon doesn't stick to the engine as easily, I know this because I look down my intake manifold and throttle body every oil change and there they are no long covered in a mist of oil.
No one has been able to conclusively say where the F black tips were caused from, but we (like I am doing so) can guess.
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While I don't have a case of N=5000 to back this up, I can tell you that several Audi owners, (I am a former Audi owner) went through 5000 km without burning any measurable amount of oil. (any half decent VAG owner would not change oil at an interval greater than 5000 or 7500km) Black tips could indeed be indicative of oil burn, but that said, my oil's flashpoint was always pretty high, fuel dilution was always <0.5, and being religious about using German Castrol (ow30 which is a high 30 weighted oil which resists fuel dilution well) would indicate that the black tips were not caused by oil being burned excessively.
No one has been able to conclusively say where the F black tips were caused from, but we (like I am doing so) can guess.
No one has been able to conclusively say where the F black tips were caused from, but we (like I am doing so) can guess.
s far as black smoke goes, keep in mine ALL DI engines in N. America run rich and can't enter the ultra lean burn mode because of the shoddy sulphur amount in our fuel, which further makes worse the issues with DI.
^^ I think you answered that question your self, if its not oil, its jsut the natural rich burning ratios the DI cars have. But first time I hear of this, DI car usually run very efficiently because they can put exact and more precise amounts of fuel then a normal port injection system, I wouldn't see why they would run richer then a none DI engine.
I think if its not oil, its carbon deposits burning off I guess but the audis have recalls left and right for oil getting consumed either from the piston rings or the turbo charger seals.
Last edited by W204Motorsports; Feb 26, 2018 at 10:23 PM.
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While I don't have a case of N=5000 to back this up, I can tell you that several Audi owners, (I am a former Audi owner) went through 5000 km without burning any measurable amount of oil. (any half decent VAG owner would not change oil at an interval greater than 5000 or 7500km) Black tips could indeed be indicative of oil burn, but that said, my oil's flashpoint was always pretty high, fuel dilution was always <0.5, and being religious about using German Castrol (ow30 which is a high 30 weighted oil which resists fuel dilution well) would indicate that the black tips were not caused by oil being burned excessively.
No one has been able to conclusively say where the F black tips were caused from, but we (like I am doing so) can guess.
No one has been able to conclusively say where the F black tips were caused from, but we (like I am doing so) can guess.
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Just like you shouldn't look at your man junk and go "yeah, I'm fine", get it tested before you start assuming that just because there is crap in your catch can that it's 99% oil or whatever you believe it is.
With respect to photos, I'm looking to see if the member in question is willing to take a photo of the turbo inlet. If it's clean or relatively clean, then I'll happily shut up, but I highly doubt it.
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No, this has been discussed upthread several times yesterday. Your catch can being full of "it" means nothing. Have you sent it to be analyzed? Would it surprise you that most catch cans catch mostly water? (and a tiny bit of stuff that's actually harmful for your engine?)
Just like you shouldn't look at your man junk and go "yeah, I'm fine", get it tested before you start assuming that just because there is crap in your catch can that it's 99% oil or whatever you believe it is.
With respect to photos, I'm looking to see if the member in question is willing to take a photo of the turbo inlet. If it's clean or relatively clean, then I'll happily shut up, but I highly doubt it.
Just like you shouldn't look at your man junk and go "yeah, I'm fine", get it tested before you start assuming that just because there is crap in your catch can that it's 99% oil or whatever you believe it is.
With respect to photos, I'm looking to see if the member in question is willing to take a photo of the turbo inlet. If it's clean or relatively clean, then I'll happily shut up, but I highly doubt it.
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I already posted my test results from Blackstone couple of posts back, you should go back and take a look. I'm not assuming anything. And I'm not sure if you're referring to me about the pics as I've never mentioned I would take any or if you were talking about another poster in which case I think he has the m276 v6 engine in which case there is no turbo so......huh?
That said, from Blackstone labs themselves, they report a high amount of moisture. There's not much else in there, so I'm not so sure what you're trying to prove.
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to superangrypenguin... I'm just trying to figure out why you don't like the idea of a catch can on vehicles. I can't tell you how many times I have pulled off the intake of a vehicle and found oil pooled up in the bottom that I could literally pour out. Are you saying that is normal and Mercedes' engines need to have a pre-lubing oil system for the intake and valves post air filter? Why would you not want to help remove all of that and help prevent the oil from pooling up in the intake. or help prevent this from being sucked into the cylinder head, or saturating the intercooler on turbo cars? Or are you saying that there is something else wrong with all of these cars, and the issues with carbon buildup on the valves in these direct injection engines and the clogging of the intakes on Audi/VW/Benz/BMW is actually normal?
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to superangrypenguin... I'm just trying to figure out why you don't like the idea of a catch can on vehicles. I can't tell you how many times I have pulled off the intake of a vehicle and found oil pooled up in the bottom that I could literally pour out. Are you saying that is normal and Mercedes' engines need to have a pre-lubing oil system for the intake and valves post air filter? Why would you not want to help remove all of that and help prevent the oil from pooling up in the intake. or help prevent this from being sucked into the cylinder head, or saturating the intercooler on turbo cars? Or are you saying that there is something else wrong with all of these cars, and the issues with carbon buildup on the valves in these direct injection engines and the clogging of the intakes on Audi/VW/Benz/BMW is actually normal?
If one wants to deal with the hassle of catch cans, then great, all the power to you, but people need to understand that in the vast majority of cases, it's a bunch of make work with very little to no benefit. In the vast majority of cases, people are simply collecting moisture which would have been burnt off without a problem anyways, and yes, there's some "crap" that does get caught, but as Blackstone even said themselves upthread, it was at an amount so small that they couldn't really test with it.
So lots of work, little to no reward. So....what's the point of this other than it being a feel good task/project?
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Oh go no, I'm not trying to prove anything lol. Someone (maybe you?) Mentioned getting contents of catch can tested and I just happened to have done such a thing so figured I'd throw my results into the thread for both sides to take it for what it is.
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As I have said upthread, to each their own. I just don't want people thinking "a catch can will solve a bunch of problems". It's like people who put in Seafoam in their cars and go..."see? all that smoke, that's all the carbon being burnt off". That's as stupid as it gets.
If one wants to deal with the hassle of catch cans, then great, all the power to you, but people need to understand that in the vast majority of cases, it's a bunch of make work with very little to no benefit. In the vast majority of cases, people are simply collecting moisture which would have been burnt off without a problem anyways, and yes, there's some "crap" that does get caught, but as Blackstone even said themselves upthread, it was at an amount so small that they couldn't really test with it.
So lots of work, little to no reward. So....what's the point of this other than it being a feel good task/project?
If one wants to deal with the hassle of catch cans, then great, all the power to you, but people need to understand that in the vast majority of cases, it's a bunch of make work with very little to no benefit. In the vast majority of cases, people are simply collecting moisture which would have been burnt off without a problem anyways, and yes, there's some "crap" that does get caught, but as Blackstone even said themselves upthread, it was at an amount so small that they couldn't really test with it.
So lots of work, little to no reward. So....what's the point of this other than it being a feel good task/project?
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Wait, to clarify, blackstone said they did not have enough of the sample to test ie I only sent them a small amount of what was in the catch can. Had they more of what was in the catch can, there would've been further results. Having said that, I agree with your idea that people can install catch can if they want, IF they realize it will not be a 100% solution.
I can tell you that when I sent it in, I was really disappointed with my own results, because it came back as one of those "congrats, you mostly collected condensation", and I was like....FFS, really?!
I'm not someone who is a believer of butt dyno results, or how someone feels, I am someone who is really scientifically minded. Case in point I've spent the last week or so trying to sound deaden this W204, and a lot of times I have said "WOW, what a huge difference", only to do quantifiable analysis (by way of a decimeter in my case) and then reply "well sh**, that was a total waste of time", and then rip/replace and start over
Whether or not my approach is right - who knows, but I think it's easier to say a result is what it is when there is data behind it, that's all.It's like the whole Seafoam thing on Youtube. People assume all that black smoke is carbon, when in reality, it's just the Seafoam liquid being combusted. It's one of those snake oil scams, IMHO :p
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https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart...an_Install.htm
http://weistec.com/all/mercedes-benz...-system-c.html
Superangrypengu, If these articles and pictures dont convince you that catch cans have a lot of benefits for how easy and cheap they are to install, then I dont know what will.
Last edited by W204Motorsports; Feb 27, 2018 at 02:09 PM.
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https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart...an_Install.htm
http://weistec.com/all/mercedes-benz...-system-c.html
Superangrypengu, If these articles and pictures dont convince you that catch cans has a lot of benefits then I dont know what will.
I also know that catch cans claim they can help in a bunch of ways [no disputes - just like in the articles that you have pulled up]
The only dispute I have is this.
1) Show me the "after" result of the intake for the turbo after you have installed a catch can (not directed at you, just saying) and show that it's now oil free, whereas before it is full of oil. That's a very basic thing to ask for, I think. I just haven't seen it.
So I agree catch cans catch stuff (I think we all do) where we disagree is 1) what it catches and 2) if it improves engine health, but all I'm asking for is a before + after with the after showing a marked engine cleanliness improvement. I haven't seen one yet.
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Thanks for sharing. I know full well that oil that's not supposed to be there ends up in the intake of turbochargers. [no disputes]
I also know that catch cans claim they can help in a bunch of ways [no disputes - just like in the articles that you have pulled up]
The only dispute I have is this.
1) Show me the "after" result of the intake for the turbo after you have installed a catch can (not directed at you, just saying) and show that it's now oil free, whereas before it is full of oil. That's a very basic thing to ask for, I think. I just haven't seen it.
So I agree catch cans catch stuff (I think we all do) where we disagree is 1) what it catches and 2) if it improves engine health, but all I'm asking for is a before + after with the after showing a marked engine cleanliness improvement. I haven't seen one yet.
I also know that catch cans claim they can help in a bunch of ways [no disputes - just like in the articles that you have pulled up]
The only dispute I have is this.
1) Show me the "after" result of the intake for the turbo after you have installed a catch can (not directed at you, just saying) and show that it's now oil free, whereas before it is full of oil. That's a very basic thing to ask for, I think. I just haven't seen it.
So I agree catch cans catch stuff (I think we all do) where we disagree is 1) what it catches and 2) if it improves engine health, but all I'm asking for is a before + after with the after showing a marked engine cleanliness improvement. I haven't seen one yet.
Well next oil change il have those pictures for you, im due in about 1000km so shouldn't take to long, you'l see my spotless intake manifold which wont look like something with 240k on it.
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That said, just want to recheck, you're driving a 2008 W204, right? In that case, no, I don't expect anything like what I would see in a DI W204 (post facelift, say C250/350)....
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As I have said upthread, to each their own. I just don't want people thinking "a catch can will solve a bunch of problems". It's like people who put in Seafoam in their cars and go..."see? all that smoke, that's all the carbon being burnt off". That's as stupid as it gets.
If one wants to deal with the hassle of catch cans, then great, all the power to you, but people need to understand that in the vast majority of cases, it's a bunch of make work with very little to no benefit. In the vast majority of cases, people are simply collecting moisture which would have been burnt off without a problem anyways, and yes, there's some "crap" that does get caught, but as Blackstone even said themselves upthread, it was at an amount so small that they couldn't really test with it.
So lots of work, little to no reward. So....what's the point of this other than it being a feel good task/project?
If one wants to deal with the hassle of catch cans, then great, all the power to you, but people need to understand that in the vast majority of cases, it's a bunch of make work with very little to no benefit. In the vast majority of cases, people are simply collecting moisture which would have been burnt off without a problem anyways, and yes, there's some "crap" that does get caught, but as Blackstone even said themselves upthread, it was at an amount so small that they couldn't really test with it.
So lots of work, little to no reward. So....what's the point of this other than it being a feel good task/project?
Did you not see the chrisfix video proving how Seafoam actually works and cleans the carbon off ? There was also this video of a man running an old lawnmower on seafoam and he takes the engine apart with big visual results.
Like I said, sea foam and a catch can has fixed my occasional pinging/knocking on my engine and keeps my hole intake system spotless. The smoke doesn't prove anything like you said, that's just the cleaner but I've seen same amounts used with large amount of smokes and some times its jsut a little amount, usually the 2nd and 3rd time you do it since there's actually less carbon to clean. On my own car, the first time I used it, it looked like an Apocalypse but the second and 3rd time had very minimal smoke, just a bit when going WOT and I did see a substantial difference in the combustion chamber with a boroscope after the 2nd cleaning.
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The oily intake manifold will be just as oily on the c250/c350 DI engine, the only difference with those is the carbon on the intake valves. Look at the article of the M156 engine, those suffer a lot with oil contaminating the intake manifold but mine at 200k didn't really look much better..
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Did you not see the chrisfix video proving how Seafoam actually works and cleans the carbon off ? There was also this video of a man running an old lawnmower on seafoam and he takes the engine apart with big visual results.
Like I said, sea foam and a catch can has fixed my occasional pinging/knocking on my engine and keeps my hole intake system spotless. The smoke doesn't prove anything like you said, that's just the cleaner but I've seen same amounts used with large amount of smokes and some times its jsut a little amount, usually the 2nd and 3rd time you do it since there's actually less carbon to clean. On my own car, the first time I used it, it looked like an Apocalypse but the second and 3rd time had very minimal smoke, just a bit when going WOT and I did see a substantial difference in the combustion chamber with a boroscope after the 2nd cleaning.
Like I said, sea foam and a catch can has fixed my occasional pinging/knocking on my engine and keeps my hole intake system spotless. The smoke doesn't prove anything like you said, that's just the cleaner but I've seen same amounts used with large amount of smokes and some times its jsut a little amount, usually the 2nd and 3rd time you do it since there's actually less carbon to clean. On my own car, the first time I used it, it looked like an Apocalypse but the second and 3rd time had very minimal smoke, just a bit when going WOT and I did see a substantial difference in the combustion chamber with a boroscope after the 2nd cleaning.
The oily intake manifold will be just as oily on the c250/c350 DI engine, the only difference with those is the carbon on the intake valves. Look at the article of the M156 engine, those suffer a lot with oil contaminating the intake manifold but mine at 200k didn't really look much better..
Cool beans, thanks for sharing!
