alsyli

To ddeliber: Psst.... You know that K-A will simply reply that you shouldn't get "butt hurt" by his posts, yes? Not that I don't appreciate your attempts to bring logic to his thinking (a wasted effort, though, if you ask me).

And don't be hatin' on the VWs. I was sufficiently impressed by my partner's test drive in a 2015 GTI that I'm seriously considering a SportWagen for my next car. I'll have my diesel wagon, damnit, even if you won't give it to me, Mercedes!!!

c4004matic

Well said. however I differ on one point. I wouldn't say 4matic is archaic at all. At this time SHAWD from Honda is probably the most advanced system in the maket. I have owned 3 SHAWD cars, an RL and 2 MDXs I have driven them to death with a lot of "spirited" driving. I can honestly say the difference between SHAWD and 4 matic is slim to none. In fact I probably like 4matic better for very hard driving. SHAWD main purpose is to quell understeer in what is primarily a FWD system. 4matic is a constant split 55/45 AWD that uses ABS for passive rather than active torque distribution (SHAWD now has both passive and active). Thus 4matic is foremost a RWD system. During my test drive on the 300 (on a road course) the car had essentially zero understeer, ZERO. It also didn't have any oversteer, in fact the car stuck like glue despite going flat out on switchbacks under full acceleration. My car didn't have airmatic, so there was more tilt to the body than you would expect on a track ready car but the limits of adhesion and control were astonishing for a car billed as a luxury vehicle. Im certain that 99% of owners would never drive their cars anywhere close to the flogging I gave the car virtually taking corners at 100mph. To his credit, the salesman who took me to the road course and took the whole thing nonchalantly, in fact he got a kick out of it. In fact he complimented me on the fact that he had no idea the car could be that capable!!! As many old reviewers like me what the handling harks to is the original 190 but with an added dose of refinement and athleticism. The handling/comfort formula of the new C is probably the best of any car regardless of price, maybe ever. The ride/ handling was what sold this car to me. Its fabulous. Its not a race car, but it will play at extremely high levels if you want to while providing a true luxury drive the other 99% of the time.

ddeliber

That and something like: I can't believe a Mercedes is so rough on poor roads. and Mercedes discounts their cars more than any car manufacturer in history.

I don't hate VWs, and that is not what I was trying to say. They make some great cars. I just don't believe people would say that any of them are worth $80,000. When talking value, Mercedes BMW and Audi probably are not the first companies that come to mind. But someone who bought a Porsche that is not described with the numbers 9 1 1 is not allowed in my book to criticize any other car manufacturer's value proposition. The Porsche Macan, starting at $49,900, sparsely optioned for a meager $85,399.49.

Now don't get me wrong, it is a great machine. I don't know why nobody thought of putting a powerful engine with a suspension system designed for it in a small SUV. Hell, I want one! However, I guess it is the impact from how I was raised, but I simply won't pay $1,290 for a clock, or $8,150 for upgraded brakes, or $4,810 for the MIDDLE GRADE leather seats among pretty much everything else offered as options. It has nothing to do with being able to afford the price, I just can't justify it to myself. In fact, since K-A complains so vehemently about discounts taking away the gratification he gets from cars, it sounds like a match made in heaven. Plus, I am pretty sure (and someone correct me if I am wrong) that it is based on the VW Tiguan, hence my tongue in cheek dig.

alsyli

Har! I was just teasing; I don't think your post made it sound like you don't like VWs.

Actually, I hate to admit (since I'd never consider myself the kind of person to drive a Porsche), but I sat in a Macan at the auto show last yr and sort of loved it. I could totally afford a base Macan, but I don't know if I'd be okay w/ a car that didn't have delayed-off interior lights for $50,000 (or something like that). I think it's based on the Audi Q5; don't know if that shares the same structure w/ the Tiguan?

I can afford a nicely optioned C-class, but I think a VW Sportwagen might provide enough of a Teutonic driving experience. And the non-US specific models still have excellent interior fit and finish (the GTI steering wheel looks as nice as anything you're going to find < $80000, IMHO). And I can use the leftover $25000 to do some home remodeling or to take a lot of really nice vacations.

K-A

DDdeliber, you can get as angry as you want about why or how I say it. I happen to agree with the review hence the appropriation and find the new C surprisingly weak in the dynamics department. Just as I find it surprisingly strong in the interior department.

Someone confident in their choices can take criticism of it and appreciate where it excels. I tested one with the thought to consider it. It just underwhelmed me BUT knocked my socks off in interior. It didn't knock my stocks off in other ways like a VW on crack appeared to.

Germancar1

Car and Driver is stuck on mountain and back road handling, anything that doesn't wow them there they have a lukewarm response too. Matterless in the real world where the C-Class handles just fine.

M

K-A

I'm very sure it outhandles the W204. But to me it felt like it doesn't want to be driven like that, it just feels softer, from the overall tangible feel to the seemingly more floaty and sedate, unemotional drive.

Those who upset about sportiness comments are simply clinging to the wrong car then.

As the review states, it's as "mini S Class" as you can get, it rules the segment in luxury I think. That's exactly what Mercedes intended! Look at how mature the rear looks, that tells you what the designers want to send as message.

As the article states, they made a conscious effort to literally speak through the car that they pulled out of the "we want to be BMW" race. Why's that a bad thing if you like the car and that's what it is? Wanting it to be something else would mean that you simply aren't looking for what this car offers?

K-A

Very true. They have a certain mindset. Years ago when I didn't crave a sporty ride I wouldn't find weight in his words and would consider where the C "wins" at of utmost importance. Now as my tastes change in how I value a drive, I feel a likened perspective to him here. It's all tastes in terms of what's important. And he's just one guy, as we all are. Everyone will have a different takeaway from a drive, aside from the obvious objectively fundamental measures and attributes.

ddeliber

Angry? Maybe you are confused, but I'm not angry, not in the least. IMO, these debates are fun. I don't agree with you, and I thought that your criti-compliment-cisms along with those of the C & D article were obvious and quite weak so I thought that I would point them out. Spin is an interesting tool in the hands of a competent writer and I don't know if you noticed, but I did compliment you on your writing abilities. All the more reason to direct attention to some of the points that have been brought up/twisted by the spin.

Before anyone should ever take your opinions even remotely seriously though, you need to at least drive a properly equipped car. You said it yourself about a thousand times, the F10 needs the sport suspension or DHP to make it handle reasonably well, and the 528 doesn't really count when trying to evaluate performance. You drove the equivalent of a 528xi once... Well, the same goes for the C. Get in a C400 with airmatic on 19s at least twice. Then at least I will read your opinion without the disdain fitted to an inexperienced reviewer. I probably will roll my eyes a few times because it doesn't feel like a BMW and it is not supposed to. It sure does handle pretty damn close though, all the way to the edge, and it plain whoops them in the smoothness and interior departments. The 4Gran Coupe has a better looking exterior though.

I can take criticism fine, plus you are not criticizing me, or even my car. I have an E class and a 3 series, but am considering a new C to address the potential reliability nightmare that I am facing with my BMW. Also, backhanded compliments speak more about the author than they to the reviewed. Saying something like outstanding interior but weak in the driving dynamics department is not a compliment nor is it true. Comparing a w205 to a Camry more than once speaks of someone that is trying to over-compensate for something.

And yes, I really need to get in one of those $80k VWs, I am interested in how they scoot. Not worth it new, but after 2 years and 50ish% depreciation, it might have more than my interest. Maybe I'll fly down to southern Cal to take a look at yours after you turn it in early and you can pay for half of my next car

ddeliber

As long as everyone remembers that the article was not written by Mercedes, but rather a BMW fan then I'm fine. It is an opinion piece that simply says great car, not a BMW. so yes, I am ok with that.

I am not sure who is upset about anything, but I just don't agree with it. A car can feel smoother and still handle great. You along with the author from C & D cant quite understand that, and that is ok too.

K-A

Lol. Well, I appreciate the writing compliment (I certainly spend time on it ). And I am glad to see and agree that car debates are fun. But good luck with 50% off said Vee Dub in question. I think they're gonna depreciate at a far better rate than the industry average, as demand is seemingly increasingly overwhelming and some people are reporting used models going for $10K over new MSRP (Pors... err. VW-on-roids don't allow new MSRP markups). Low leaser/high buyer rate, people paying sticker, allocations already sold out for 2015 at many dealers, I think they'll hold well. But hey, if such a situation occurs, your scenario sounds good and I'll give you an "MBWorld discount".

I'm sure the C400 Sport will impress more. But one thing I have learned is that if an inherent chassis is setup a certain way, it's very hard to change driving characteristics, unless it gets totally ransacked (say a different manufacturer puts their spin on the setup, or AMG/M get a hold of it, and even then, there are limitations). For example, yes, the F10 NEEDS 704 ("M") suspension to drive right in the dynamics department. But that soft and characterless ride of a 528xi still sort of houses itself somewhere in its depths, as the car just will always be "what it is". An example being how after my E's, the F10 felt like a true sports sedan to me. Now, after expanding my driving horizons more, it feels kind of like a floaty luxury sedan with some sporty abilities, even with the "M" suspension. I just crave something sportier now.

The 3 is less sporty-first than the previous 3, but even the 328i I found to be great fun when I wanted to have fun with it. I.e, that's engrained within its character more-so. The C300 in a mirror setup, was not fun, nor did I find it handles better than your average nicely dialed in commuter car. It felt comfortable, probably a little less than the E, probably a little bit sharper than the E, but certainly not sharp.

Now, a C400 Sport will change that. But based on this review and others I've read from those who've driven it, it appears to be more of the same, slightly tuned suspension and obviously more powerful (and heavier). I'm pretty used to how M-B tunes its so-called "Sport variations" at this point. The W205 chassis is what it is, and a C400 will probably feel less dynamic than an equal C300 in everything but straight line speed. And mind you, I wasn't paying much attention to power, but more-so the handling and chassis balance. It honestly felt about as unemotional and clinical to me as a high-end "Rental car", that's not intended as vitriol. But to some, that might mean "awesome, comfortable commuter with German tuned handled capabilities".

The F10 5 Series is actually a good comparison. It has an IMO class-leading interior, very nice, comfortable and sort of soulless (though the 704 suspension, sport auto in sport, and driving it spiritedly starts to bring out some of that "BMW soul" engrained far within somewhere) drive.

The W205 did impress me largely in the interior element, especially after the pre-facelift W204 was a disaster of epic proportions. Huge, huge change in approach for the C Class for M-B. The W204 was a younger-pandering, wannabe BMW, while the W205 is more of a comfortable Mercedes. I myself find a few signs of growing pains within the abrupt switches in formula, but some certainly might not.

What it comes down to, is this, as you mentioned: The equivalent 3 still has a considerably more dynamic, involving and well balanced drive to me. The C crushes it in interior thus driving comfort, and comfort oriented drive. You can equip a C to get closer to the 3, or a 3 to get closer to the C, but they are who they inherently are.

K-A

Well, this is my point. Nobody is saying that a car can't be both, but it seems both of us agree that the C isn't quite both. It certainly doesn't handle bad, and it certainly is more than competent. But it is obviously not engineered as a handling or dynamic car first and foremost. You feel the almost overwhelming softness which is exactly M-B's intent. I'd say that M-B nailed their intent.

Yes, obviously this comes from a perspective of someone/s who desire a different type of drive firstly, hence the lacks of enthusiasm. But C&D have moved from being "BMW and Driver" to "Audi and Driver" these days themselves.

MB-JIM

Even though I was on the W201 and W212 forums for years, I got so tired of endless "objective" analysis from someone with ZERO interest in Mercedes that I finally quit following the forum. I keep hoping that won't happen to me in this forum.

PeterUbers

This thread makes my brain hurt

ddeliber

I am saying that it is both or as close to both as anyone has gotten so to this point. Not sure how you could have interpreted this differently. Just because I agree it doesn't feel like a BMW with the sport suspension doesn't mean that it doesn't perform as good at the limit (my two test drives is not enough to really gauge its capabilities thought). IMO it is quite an impressive ride smooth as silk and tight when pushed which is exactly what I am looking for. Because of this, it is a more dynamic car first and foremost. This is significantly harder to do than simply firmer with more "feel". Anyone can tighten or soften a suspension. That is just parts. The C is designed from the ground up to eliminate harshness while maintaining handling and grip.

As I said before, you drove the softest version of the car once. How can you argue with any credibility about the C400 if you haven't even driven it?

StanNH

While I respect your opinion, especially as a former three time BMW and Audi owner myself, I really have to disagree with this.

There is no "overwhelming softeness" to be felt in the W205 at all. In fact, the ride is actually firmer than what I had initially expected. The seats are firm as well, and body motions are very well controlled even in aggressive handling situations.

There is a different feel compared to BMW, not so much with Audi, but it is not a sense of softness. Many of the controls feel light, and the steering feels much more like an Audi A4 than any BMW. It is very light, especially on center, but firms up when off center. Road feel and feedback are very subdued. The door latches are so light they feel like they may fall off, but that's the way they function .... and they don't fall off.

The W205 is not a sports car, and I wouldn't dare do things with it that I routinely do with my Porsche Boxster S. But, compared to the many sports sedans I've owned, it does hold its own very well. It has its own unique character to it, and its own unique feel ... but it is anything but a soft luxury cruiser.

ddeliber

Only time will tell on how well the Macan will hold its value. The Cayenne started off the same way, but I see some reasonably priced CPO's out there now.

You lost me there when you said the F10 needs the sport suspension and in the same breath came back with "soft and characterless ride of the 528xi still sort of houses itself somewhere in its depths, as the car just will always be 'what it is'".

Now I am guessing that you mean a 528xi is soft and characterless but still "something good and not soft and characterless". However, your spin unsuccessfully conveyed this and to me sounds like a pile of BS. The 528xi provides a different ride than a 535i with the sports suspension so lets not sugar coat it. The same is true for a C300 base vs a C400 (AMG sport is standard) vs a C400 with Airmatic. You can guess all you want, and I don't care what a review says, no one will know how it feels unless they drive it. Plus the bit about changing driving dynamics on a chassis is simply wrong, and you contradict this yourself with the "F10 NEEDS the 704 suspension" remark.

The C300 and the 328i are not "mirrored setups" in any way. Drive a 328xi and you can't spin that as anything but significantly softer than BMW has ever released. IMO, a C300 handles better when pushed than a 328xi (which floats and bounces with all the rest), but that is not the point. They are different cars and they need to be judged independently.

Having said this, we are supposed to be talking about the C400 here. So your really should keep your comments to appearance and style until you actually drive one. The baloney about what you are used to is completely meaningless. The w205 is a totally new and different car with multiple configurations that will change the way it drives. Your guesses and conjecture make you sound like an uninformed hater. No matter how well you write, you can't escape that without a reasonable amount of time behind the wheel.

Where did I mention, intimate, allude or even briefly think that an equivalent 3 has a "more dynamic, involving and well balance drive"? Don't put words in other peoples mouths, it makes you look shallow. The C doesn't want to be a 3, it is more regardless of how you configure it. And you can't configure a 3 to get closer to a C in the interior and smoothness departments. What the 3 can give when configured properly is more road feel and harshness comes with it. It probably has a bit more grip, but just a bit (as conveyed in the .88 vs .89 skid pad results).

Oh, and BTW, I like what MB is doing with the alleged early release of the C450 to counter the tune that BMW is releasing in the 340i. It says let the cars be judged by their abilities, not by the HP.

ddeliber

+1

coladin

The reason that MB has stopped the "BMW chase", as you put it is, with all due respect, because BMW has lost its way. Why chase a faltering product? Last I checked, a Spartan 320i drives like a Camry too. So does an A4. That is the entry level to the brand, or what used to be until the mini-european cars arrived.


You want to truly sample what these German brands are about? Check out the benchmarks: E Class, 5 series, A6, XF, etc...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the C Class got bigger and is 200lbs lighter?


I'm not sure what your expectations are for the 4MATIC, what do you want the car to do? How on Earth could you decipher that the 4MATIC is universes away from other products?


If there is one thing that I have learned over the years is that each class of car is very similar in price. Option out the Audi, BMW, Jag of each version and typically they are all right there, which is why consumers have a hard time picking a car because, short of Acura, who seems to be the only brand where someone can get away with saying that their car is significantly cheaper, even Lexus, Infiniti and Cadillac are all priced competitively. You can denigrate it and say that it is a lot for a C Class, but price out the other companies and you will find that there is not much in it.


Look at the price of an M3. C63...same thing, if anything the AMG was cheaper and better.


Your rant comes off as "jumping the gun" a little bit on your proclamations of the C400...I would recommend driving it and see for yourself, if you really care. At the end of the day, I am sure many here who have chosen the C Class have cross shopped other brands and to each their own I guess.

MB-JIM

Just remember that K/A has zero interest in MB's. When is enough enough?

gfmohn

This thread has moved a long way from "Car and Driver C400 review - Nov 2014." It has served its purpose.

BenzC400

I can't feel my legs