BMS C300 Tuning
12-02-2014, 11:37 AM
#1
BMS C300 Tuning
Hey guys,
We've started development on a C300 tune and I figured I'd make a thread we could use for updates and testing results as we go along.
The initial test car is a low optioned 2015 C300 sedan. I've racked up a few hundred miles now stock and overall I'm fairly impressed with its performance for the price. It's very comparable to a BMW 328i in my opinion especially in the low end response department. It feels years ahead of our 2012 C250 Sedan.
Anyway I was able to get the car over to a private track for a little baseline VBOX performance testing. Note weather was in the 60s, track has a 0.75% declining slope, and I used the default 12" roll out setting on the GPS based performance box which is normal for 1/4 mile times but can inflate 0-60 times .1-.2ths of a second compared to not using a 12" roll out. This is on 91 octane fuel and was the best of a few runs. I would brake torque to around 2000 RPM off the line with zero tire spin. AWD Is so much fun.
Overall I'm fairly impressed with the stock performance! I was expecting high 14s so to hit 14.1 was a surprise. I wonder if the magazine testers are brake torque launching the car as their times seem to be a few tenths and mph slower...
Anyway I've begun adapting a version of our popular Stage1 tune to the vehicle and once I have it functional I'll revisit the VBOX testing to see what sort of a real world benefit there is with tuning this thing. We'll need to see at least a 2mph trap speed gain to be viable, IMHO.
PS. For those who are wondering the car runs around 18psi down low tapering to 12psi at redline from the factory. Picking up top end performance is normally the challenge with these smaller turbo chargers but I've already determined there is room down low for at least 3psi more. So things are looking promising.
We've started development on a C300 tune and I figured I'd make a thread we could use for updates and testing results as we go along.
The initial test car is a low optioned 2015 C300 sedan. I've racked up a few hundred miles now stock and overall I'm fairly impressed with its performance for the price. It's very comparable to a BMW 328i in my opinion especially in the low end response department. It feels years ahead of our 2012 C250 Sedan.
Anyway I was able to get the car over to a private track for a little baseline VBOX performance testing. Note weather was in the 60s, track has a 0.75% declining slope, and I used the default 12" roll out setting on the GPS based performance box which is normal for 1/4 mile times but can inflate 0-60 times .1-.2ths of a second compared to not using a 12" roll out. This is on 91 octane fuel and was the best of a few runs. I would brake torque to around 2000 RPM off the line with zero tire spin. AWD Is so much fun.
Overall I'm fairly impressed with the stock performance! I was expecting high 14s so to hit 14.1 was a surprise. I wonder if the magazine testers are brake torque launching the car as their times seem to be a few tenths and mph slower...
Anyway I've begun adapting a version of our popular Stage1 tune to the vehicle and once I have it functional I'll revisit the VBOX testing to see what sort of a real world benefit there is with tuning this thing. We'll need to see at least a 2mph trap speed gain to be viable, IMHO.
PS. For those who are wondering the car runs around 18psi down low tapering to 12psi at redline from the factory. Picking up top end performance is normally the challenge with these smaller turbo chargers but I've already determined there is room down low for at least 3psi more. So things are looking promising.
12-02-2014, 01:02 PM
#5
MBWorld Fanatic!
Not to diss anyone but I'd avoid "tunes". The manufacturer spends 10's of millions of dollars employing 100's of engineers to provide a car that gets the best combination of power, fuel economy, emissions and most important longevity. Engine "tunes" always screw up a variety of these parameter if not all of them, in general mostly producing over boosted conditions that wreck havoc with everything else. More often than not the biggest change is a motor that is constantly operating the wastegate due to over boost for marginal improvements in performance. IF you want a car for the track and don't care about anything else by all means feel free to "tune" it.
Anyone else should avoid them like the plague.
Anyone else should avoid them like the plague.
12-02-2014, 02:25 PM
#7
I don't know enough about them yet. Post some photos of the engine bay and I can start to get going on that. The nice thing about our Stage1 tune is the firmware is updatable at home. It also has logging ability. Both of those make remote tuning possible if needed.
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12-02-2014, 02:34 PM
#8
Not to diss anyone but I'd avoid "tunes". The manufacturer spends 10's of millions of dollars employing 100's of engineers to provide a car that gets the best combination of power, fuel economy, emissions and most important longevity. Engine "tunes" always screw up a variety of these parameter if not all of them, in general mostly producing over boosted conditions that wreck havoc with everything else.
With tuning the devil is always in the details of how the tuning is applied and how far you push things. It's important to understand the risks especially if you push too far and its also important to go with a tuning company that has a long track record of success. I should also note in many areas and/or conditions it's illegal to modify a vehicle. In so far as the C300 tuning potential it remains to be seen. I have high hopes though based on what I've seen so far.
Anyway I'd suggest starting another thread called "Why I don't think you should tune your vehicle" and maybe you can find someone there to discuss it with you in more detail.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 12-02-2014 at 02:38 PM.
12-02-2014, 03:03 PM
#9
Senior Member
getting it in March/April 
12-02-2014, 03:48 PM
#10
MBWorld Fanatic!
That's generally a false statement. BMW for example sells stronger (reliable) add on tunes for their own vehicles. Often a lot of performance is left off the table for marketing reasons like the 320i vs 328i which have the same engine but the 320i is tuned to make 50hp less. Sometimes there are power/export reasons. When properly done it's unheard of for aftermarket tuning to "wreck havoc" on things. If this were true then tuners wouldn't stay in business for long.
With tuning the devil is always in the details of how the tuning is applied and how far you push things. It's important to understand the risks especially if you push too far and its also important to go with a tuning company that has a long track record of success. I should also note in many areas and/or conditions it's illegal to modify a vehicle. In so far as the C300 tuning potential it remains to be seen. I have high hopes though based on what I've seen so far.
Anyway I'd suggest starting another thread called "Why I don't think you should tune your vehicle" and maybe you can find someone there to discuss it with you in more detail.
With tuning the devil is always in the details of how the tuning is applied and how far you push things. It's important to understand the risks especially if you push too far and its also important to go with a tuning company that has a long track record of success. I should also note in many areas and/or conditions it's illegal to modify a vehicle. In so far as the C300 tuning potential it remains to be seen. I have high hopes though based on what I've seen so far.
Anyway I'd suggest starting another thread called "Why I don't think you should tune your vehicle" and maybe you can find someone there to discuss it with you in more detail.
Again no disrespect intended, but, that is the same thing all "tune" manufacturers say. How many engineers does the company employ? How many PhD? Most importantly: How many car companies warrant aftermarket tunes? Answer: none.
If you want a tuned car buy one from a manufacturer tuner, like AMG, M line etc which are basically in house tuning divisions that are fully warranty covered. Trying to do it on the cheap is playing dice with 60000 dollars.
12-02-2014, 04:49 PM
#11
Super Member
Again no disrespect intended, but, that is the same thing all "tune" manufacturers say. How many engineers does the company employ? How many PhD? Most importantly: How many car companies warrant aftermarket tunes? Answer: none.
If you want a tuned car buy one from a manufacturer tuner, like AMG, M line etc which are basically in house tuning divisions that are fully warranty covered. Trying to do it on the cheap is playing dice with 60000 dollars.
If you want a tuned car buy one from a manufacturer tuner, like AMG, M line etc which are basically in house tuning divisions that are fully warranty covered. Trying to do it on the cheap is playing dice with 60000 dollars.
I specifically asked (though I may not be the reason) for BMS to join the w205 discussions as I know that he has done extraordinary work for the BMW crowd. H3ll, about 3 out of my 4 friends with BMW's are running BMS JB tunes on their 335's and 535's.
Also, Terry was one of the first tuners to provide a tune for the 2012+ c250 coupe/sedan. I was part of the initial BMS JB beta tunes for our w204 c250 coupes. I had no problems with my tune and I loved that car up until the point I traded it in for my c350. I actually had MB service A & B done WITH the tune on my car, and both my MB Service adviser and Mechanic praised the BMS tune.
My MB dealership is also a Renntech TUNE provider/installer so that tells you something.
Another thing to point out is that the confirmed c450 is using the same engine as the c400 producing 367hp. That means that MB left room on the table for the c450. All publications are pointing to the fact that the c450 engine is just a tuned version of the c400 engine, nothing more nothing less. That means MB left 38hp left on the table to be played with. I am hoping tuning company's, BMS included, can tap into more power and provide us options.
This is one of the reasons why I have not bought a c400 yet. I am waiting to see what the c450 has to offer and the tuning potentials of both cars.
12-02-2014, 04:56 PM
#12
Brabus offers tuning kits for the new 4 cyl. petrol turbos. (sames used in the C300 in the US)
Installing the Brabus software, will not void the factory warranty.
Unlike what, much to my surprise, seems to be promised by this US based company, - Brabus is, judging from the current kits they offer, not able to add power at the top end, while maintaining the low end torque. In the case of the C200, the peak torque was moved from 1200 rpm to 2000, which to me translates into less every day driveabillity.
The Mercedes engineers placed great emphasis on tuning the current line of petrol engines to yield maximum low end torque, even at the expense of top end power. (direct quote from one of the responsible engineers)
Personally i would welcome any kit which will add more useable power. With emphais on useable power. These petrol engines are not high reving screamers with manual gearboxes.
Loosing low end torque goes directly against what makes the engines work well for daily use with the 7G+ transmission.
Installing the Brabus software, will not void the factory warranty.
Unlike what, much to my surprise, seems to be promised by this US based company, - Brabus is, judging from the current kits they offer, not able to add power at the top end, while maintaining the low end torque. In the case of the C200, the peak torque was moved from 1200 rpm to 2000, which to me translates into less every day driveabillity.
The Mercedes engineers placed great emphasis on tuning the current line of petrol engines to yield maximum low end torque, even at the expense of top end power. (direct quote from one of the responsible engineers)
Personally i would welcome any kit which will add more useable power. With emphais on useable power. These petrol engines are not high reving screamers with manual gearboxes.
Loosing low end torque goes directly against what makes the engines work well for daily use with the 7G+ transmission.
12-02-2014, 05:16 PM
#13
Dude, chill out. I usually read your post with a grain of salt, but now you are becoming annoying. If you are not happy with a tuner company trying to provide tunes for this car then please go ahead and create another thread about it. If you are not happy that c300 is being worked on before the c400, then use this thread to rant to BMS.
I specifically asked (though I may not be the reason) for BMS to join the w205 discussions as I know that he has done extraordinary work for the BMW crowd. H3ll, about 3 out of my 4 friends with BMW's are running BMS JB tunes on their 335's and 535's.
Also, Terry was one of the first tuners to provide a tune for the 2012+ c250 coupe/sedan. I was part of the initial BMS JB beta tunes for our w204 c250 coupes. I had no problems with my tune and I loved that car up until the point I traded it in for my c350. I actually had MB service A & B done WITH the tune on my car, and both my MB Service adviser and Mechanic praised the BMS tune.
My MB dealership is also a Renntech TUNE provider/installer so that tells you something.
Another thing to point out is that the confirmed c450 is using the same engine as the c400 producing 367hp. That means that MB left room on the table for the c450. All publications are pointing to the fact that the c450 engine is just a tuned version of the c400 engine, nothing more nothing less. That means MB left 38hp left on the table to be played with. I am hoping tuning company's, BMS included, can tap into more power and provide us options.
This is one of the reasons why I have not bought a c400 yet. I am waiting to see what the c450 has to offer and the tuning potentials of both cars.
I specifically asked (though I may not be the reason) for BMS to join the w205 discussions as I know that he has done extraordinary work for the BMW crowd. H3ll, about 3 out of my 4 friends with BMW's are running BMS JB tunes on their 335's and 535's.
Also, Terry was one of the first tuners to provide a tune for the 2012+ c250 coupe/sedan. I was part of the initial BMS JB beta tunes for our w204 c250 coupes. I had no problems with my tune and I loved that car up until the point I traded it in for my c350. I actually had MB service A & B done WITH the tune on my car, and both my MB Service adviser and Mechanic praised the BMS tune.
My MB dealership is also a Renntech TUNE provider/installer so that tells you something.
Another thing to point out is that the confirmed c450 is using the same engine as the c400 producing 367hp. That means that MB left room on the table for the c450. All publications are pointing to the fact that the c450 engine is just a tuned version of the c400 engine, nothing more nothing less. That means MB left 38hp left on the table to be played with. I am hoping tuning company's, BMS included, can tap into more power and provide us options.
This is one of the reasons why I have not bought a c400 yet. I am waiting to see what the c450 has to offer and the tuning potentials of both cars.
I do not know where you fit in, and i am open to listen and learn. A good product is a good product. But I noticed a similar very strong reaction on a different thread. So let me tell you, and the tuning house in question, (using this space to advertise) that some of us has been around car forums since the mid 90's and have seen our fair share of ups and downs in that respect. If i feel like questioning what i hear, I don't need you jumping in my face defending your local tuning shop to win favours.
12-02-2014, 06:25 PM
#14
Super Member
Usually i would not defend c400matic, but i have seen enough cases of "Friends of tuning houses" drumming up a hype on a forum, firecely attacking anyone who dare to offer an opposing opinion to the local hero. <br />
I do not know where you fit in, and i am open to listen and learn. A good product is a good product. But I noticed a similar very strong reaction on a different thread. So let me tell you, and the tuning house in question, (using this space to advertise) that some of us has been around car forums since the mid 90's and have seen our fair share of ups and downs in that respect. If i feel like questioning what i hear, I don't need you jumping in my face defending your local tuning shop to win favours.
I do not know where you fit in, and i am open to listen and learn. A good product is a good product. But I noticed a similar very strong reaction on a different thread. So let me tell you, and the tuning house in question, (using this space to advertise) that some of us has been around car forums since the mid 90's and have seen our fair share of ups and downs in that respect. If i feel like questioning what i hear, I don't need you jumping in my face defending your local tuning shop to win favours.
Anyway, about your comment about me favoring BMS. I will favor any company who has a good reputation and is actively responding to forums and questions. I cannot say the same for other companies. Go to the w204 coupe section and check the tuning threads. We even had one vendor keep a forum member car for almost two months and would not post progress of tune.
Yes, I had BMS tune in the past and it worked for me. I am also coming from the Infiniti world prior to owning a Mercedes and I had all types of various tunes and beta testing on at least 6 of my Infiniti's dating back to my 99g20t with SR20DET engine swap.
My point is I know about tunes, and I would rather have a tuner come in here and provide us status about something they are trying to do for us then to have someone jump in on their thread spreading negative information or misleading information when its not true. I too want to know more about what BMS is working on and I have questions too. If this was c400's thread and he said don't buy a tune or tunes hurt your car then I would not have jumped on him.
Let BMS provide us with info and allow people to leave constructive comments or opinions about the actual product.
Last edited by DameMD; 12-02-2014 at 06:46 PM.
12-02-2014, 06:49 PM
#15
The point C400matic makes, with Meredes engineers knowing their business, is a very valid point and should not be shamed.
Saying that engineers deliberately down-tunes a car is over simplifying the subject. There are all sorts of reasons to performance figures. Not all of them is going to be marketing related.
Saying that engineers deliberately down-tunes a car is over simplifying the subject. There are all sorts of reasons to performance figures. Not all of them is going to be marketing related.
12-02-2014, 07:07 PM
#16
I do not know where you fit in, and i am open to listen and learn. A good product is a good product. But I noticed a similar very strong reaction on a different thread. So let me tell you, and the tuning house in question, (using this space to advertise) that some of us has been around car forums since the mid 90's and have seen our fair share of ups and downs in that respect. If i feel like questioning what i hear, I don't need you jumping in my face defending your local tuning shop to win favours.
That aside, the purpose of this thread isn't to convince someone who's never heard of us that we know what we're doing, or to convince someone who dislikes modifying cars to do anything to their vehicle. This thread is to share the results/potential of tuning the C300. Along the way if there are weak points with the platform we'll identify those. There is a chance we may get knee deep in to the project and determine we can't make a reliable improvement over what the factory provides. But until we do the leg work its impossible to know.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 12-02-2014 at 07:11 PM.
12-02-2014, 07:15 PM
#17
Regarding torque and lag, when raising boost it's common for the peak torque to be shifted higher along the RPM curve, but at no point in the power band would a tuned vehicle make less torque or be slower than stock. Unless the tuner is doing something seriously wrong.
12-02-2014, 07:19 PM
#18
12-02-2014, 08:23 PM
#19
@TerryBMS
In regards to your comments on loss of low end torque, never being an issue:
I suppose we would need to see the torque numbers from Brabus C200 module, before your point can be validated for this 4 cyl. engine.
If the factory output of 300nm is available from 1200 rpm, with the Brabus module, increasing to 330nm at 2000 rpm, then i agree that there is a genuine gain.
My gutt feeling tells me, that this is not the case, or they would, and should have, released that information. It also tells me, that the C300 (barring hardware upgrades) is probably already performing relative close to the limit of what is safe in the long term.
At one end of the scale of this 2.0L engine, you have the C200 at 184 bhp. At the other you have the C300 at 241 bph.(31% up)
This of course keeping in mind that the AMG version of this 2.0L engine (most likely different in a hundred different ways) is producing a whopping 355 bph.
In regards to your comments on loss of low end torque, never being an issue:
I suppose we would need to see the torque numbers from Brabus C200 module, before your point can be validated for this 4 cyl. engine.
If the factory output of 300nm is available from 1200 rpm, with the Brabus module, increasing to 330nm at 2000 rpm, then i agree that there is a genuine gain.
My gutt feeling tells me, that this is not the case, or they would, and should have, released that information. It also tells me, that the C300 (barring hardware upgrades) is probably already performing relative close to the limit of what is safe in the long term.
At one end of the scale of this 2.0L engine, you have the C200 at 184 bhp. At the other you have the C300 at 241 bph.(31% up)
This of course keeping in mind that the AMG version of this 2.0L engine (most likely different in a hundred different ways) is producing a whopping 355 bph.
Last edited by Eilers; 12-02-2014 at 08:28 PM.
12-02-2014, 09:42 PM
#20
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thanks for all the information, Terry. I'll be very curious to see how this project develops and what real gains, if any, you'll be able to get out of the final product. Good luck!
12-02-2014, 10:47 PM
#21
Senior Member
I live in Japan, where we can only get the C200 or C250. For logistical reasons, I had to go with the C200. I'd be very interested in a reliable way to boost the power in my (yet to be delivered) car.
I am, of course, interested in the whole warranty issue... Is there someplace I can get more info about this?
Yes, I will also be looking at the Brabus option.
12-03-2014, 12:27 AM
#22
Senior Member
Yes Brabus has tune for C200 petrol and C220 diesel.
It would by nice for me with my C250 which has here in EU 211hp/350nm just the power you guys have in US with C300..
Around 250hp/400nm will be enough for me :-)
I am really looking forward to see what BMS will produce.
It would by nice for me with my C250 which has here in EU 211hp/350nm just the power you guys have in US with C300..
Around 250hp/400nm will be enough for me :-)
I am really looking forward to see what BMS will produce.
12-03-2014, 05:17 AM
#23
Expect to pay more if the product is backed by the manufacturier of the car, thus not voiding the factory warranty.
In the real world owners of new cars under warranty often install aftermarked plug and play kits. If they brake the engine, they just remove the kit, and still go after claiming factory warranty. The car manufacturers are getting wise to the fact. Some of them are supposedly able to look for certain clues left behind in the software.
Last edited by Eilers; 12-03-2014 at 05:21 AM.
12-03-2014, 07:03 AM
#25
Senior Member
