Vipershade

This ladies and gentleman is the exact definition of worthless-fact-less information.

(Bring some facts next time. )

Zorq

Didn't want to join this argument about AMG vs AMG Sport but I'd just like to chime in that I don't entirely agree with either side. I believe, like many others here, the C450 AMG Sport fills a very nice void where we'd like a bit of AMGness but still struggling with practicality, etc. For one, I'd LOVE to get the C63S, and the sole reason I did not, after careful consideration, is the AMG Perf 4matic available on the C450. (It is technically same as the E63 AFAIK)


It is true that the C450 has:
the partial C63s suspension, where many of its parts are migrated from the said car
the same steering rack (I have yet to find info stating otherwise)
some AMG extras (gear hold, badges, a similarly tuned BUT different tail pipe)
the VERY similar interior, AFAIK the interior is of same quality once you get the Leather package.
the AMG characteristics that we all car enthusiast love, I think this is the main differentiation why the C450 is so attractive, it is NOT a AMG but it HAS the AMG characteristics yet being a regular C class.


It is true that the C450 DOES NOT have:
the "One man, one engine"
the extreme AMG extras (Launch control, Race Mode)
the full on exterior interior badging
the wider front axle and longer nose
the brakes
the dynamic engine mount
the dynamic exhaust pipe
the tranny
the prestige of being a AMG :P


I understand why Viper is not happy when being talked down about the C450, but I also understand the anger that AMG owners feel less prestige due to the introduction of a middle of the road AMG Sport.


To conclude, I think both are great cars, I'd love to buy the C63s if they had 4matic, but there shouldn't be any talking down on what the C450 can do as it inherits the AMG characteristics.


Yes, the C63S will smoke the C450 in a controlled environment. But can't we all be happy that one drives a AMG and one drives a AMG Sport?


I hope I didn't offend anyone, just my .02

Vipershade

A C450 is not a C63... but at the end of the day, both cars have identical starting points and a finite number of parts that get them from the starting point to the end result. All of the parts that the Mercedes-AMG team adds are known (if you know where to look). It's in their best interest to make that information available (and even in cases where a component is too small to make a point of advertising the difference, the parts list is the parts list).

oldman&theC

German manufacturers acceleration numbers are for 0-100/km(62 mph)not o-60 mph they don't use a 12" rollout,which all major US magazines use during acceleration tests.These 2 diff account for the .5 sec faster times by most US tests.This would put the C450 times about 4.3 sec.

c4004matic

The 450 should be marginally faster than the 400. The Renntech tune is a little stronger than the AMG one. With it I went from 4.9 to 4.6 the bigger gains were at the 1/4 where it went from 107 to 112. BTW the Renntech tune is only engine not transmission though I doubt the few microseconds claimed by the transmission tune will amount to a pile of beans since the 7gtronicplus already offers essentially instantaneous shifts, much faster than any manual shifting. Dont count on any one doing an official comparison amongst the 2 cars back to back. Though if anyone wants to bring theirs to Wisconsin we could do an unofficial one. Renntech VS AMG

oldman&theC

What are you using to time your accel runs? Motor Trend tested a C400 at 4.7 sec with no mods.I fully expect the major magazines to get 4.5 sec or better for an unmoded C450.I have my own test equipment which I have verified at an NHRA dragstrip.The most error I saw at any point between my tester & the drag strip timeimg was.09 sec.As soon as I get more miles on my car I will run my own testes and post the results.

c4004matic

My own G timer. I've always found enthusiast magazine numbers to be "enthusiastic". Note MB promises 4.9 on the 450 an improvement of 0.3 sec. Sounds about right given he gains in HP and torque provided by the AMG tune. Renntec is 15 more HP but 25 more torque. All in all rentech should be around 0.1-0.2 sec faster than the AMG. Note you can add a Renntech tune to the 450 but 1000 bucks per 0.1 sec is ludicrous (its 2k). However there are other models like the GLE 400 for which it would be a good deal.

oldman&theC

I also have a GT2 timer and have always been able to beat the magazine times in my previous cars.I have been an avid drag racer since the 1960's and work at getting the best start.Remember the magazine testers only have the car for 1 day so they can't experiment nearly as much as I do, sometimes as many as 100 runs over several months.Do you have your timer set for a 12" roll out?If not you are losing about .25 sec.All US magazines use the roll out to properly simulate drag strip timers.

c4004matic

I do not, just running on auto everything. Im not a dragger, just for curiosity. One thing is for sure, after the first run it gets slower.

K-Mac

THERE IS ONLY FRONT AND REAR TOE ADJUSTMENT OEM (FOR THE W205)

WE SAW THE NEED THEREFORE TO MANUFACTURE AND REINSTATE FROM THE EARLY 90’S PRECISELY ADJUSTABLE (SINGLE WRENCH, ON CAR) FRONT CAMBER AND CASTER AND REAR CAMBER (WITH EXTRA TOE) KITS.

WITH K-MAC, THE OFTEN HEARD REASSURING STATEMENT.... “FULL FRONT AND REAR WHEEL ALIGNMENT” AGAIN MEANS WHAT IT SAYS!

CAMBER – Allows to actually change the tire contact angle, improving wear/traction/understeer/oversteer – Toe only alters wear position. Race days – can adjust for extra track width and less understeer. Resulting in improved lap times by allowing to go deeper into the corners with increased traction and braking response (along with improved ability to hit those corner apexes each time).

CASTER – “Accurately” resolves steering pull, increases steering response. With better turn in and high speed directional control, along with improved anti dive/lift under brake and acceleration.

NO MORE ONGOING TRIPS TO DEALERS OR ALIGNMENT SHOPS or constantly changing tire brands when altering vehicle height, fitting wide profile tires/wheels, load carrying or because of curb knock damage. Added bonus is these 4 front and rear K-MAC adjustable bushings (unique design eliminating the OEM air voids with subsequent improved brake and steering response yet still retaining full 2 axis movement – allowing arms to travel through their required arcs) also replace the highest wearing suspension bushings at the same time and with twice the load bearing area.

FOR THE FRONT (ONLY) - there are available fluted Camber bolts. But these are inaccurate (one only position) bolts offering a minimal .3 of one degree (1/8”/ 3mm) and require labour intensive disassembly each time. While the K-MAC unique patented design provides up to 4 times this adjustment range and single wrench precise/ongoing adjustment capability – on car, accurately (under load) direct on alignment rack!

FOR THE REAR – you can purchase adjustable Camber arms to reduce inner edge tire wear unlike K-MAC lower arm bushings – these arms need to adjust top of tire outwards which reduces all important clearance to outer fender. K-MAC kits also include extra Toe adjustment necessary to compensate for this new rear Camber facility.

Front kit W205 (all models) Camber and Caster (#502816K) $480
Rear kit Camber (and extra Toe) (#502226K) $480

Current promotion for MB World members USA/Canada delivery - $30 one kit or $40 front and rear (normally $70 one kit, $80 front and rear).

See link for latest 2015 Catalog (World’s largest range AUDI to Volvo) http://K-mac.com/mercedes/

oldman&theC

I don't know which model you have but mine can be programned for many variables such as,rollout,weight of car with driver,aerodynamic drag,rolling resistance,drivetrain loss,roll characteristics,pitch characteristics.Not all of these settings affect accelelration but some do.The others need to be set to give accurate skid pad & estimated HP numbers.If you program this info,you will get much more accurate results.

Jurzeykid

Not disgruntled at all I love my car. I'm not sure if you understood my reasoning previously so let me be more granular. I received my 400 fully equipped for $51k in January. The base for the 450 is $50.8 but fully equipped is 65k+ (which is the same base for c63 so might as well step up). I wouldn't go down to a C300 but for a potential buyer I would definitely try to pick up a 400 instead which has roughly same power for a lot cheaper. Unless your into getting base models.

Vipershade

So your 400 was used when you bought it? A "fully loaded" (however you want to define that) with a base price of $48.6K is more than $51K (unless it was a brass hat, or used).

Jurzeykid

Oops my apologies, I don't know why I said January I got the car in September (last month) brand new, not used for 51k. Could be that they were trying to get rid of the 400's to make way for the 450's but I like to blame it on my negotiation skills.
Secondly, I don't know what your definition is for fully loaded but fully loaded to me means every option available.

Why are you so salty?

Vipershade

I am just not a fan of people spewing miss information. Too many people think they are an expert after a 30 minute test drive (or reading someone else's 200 word review). I'm a lot closer to this stuff and it is still about providing facts instead of opinion.

autopal

I'm with you Viper. If someone got a great blowout deal on a C400, good for them, there's nothing wrong with that, what I hate is when those people appear on the C450 forum trying to justify their purchase and pretending as if they are smarter than those of us that opted for the C450. Worst yet is when I hear "a C450 is just a C400 with a tune." When I ordered my C450, I too was offered a ridiculously good deal on a instock C400, but it just was not what I wanted.

Strafe1

Kuba brought a ton of facts to you in previous posts, so reposting seemed unnecessary. He just happened to focus more on the S variant which, for all intents and purposes, are on the base model as well.
You are like a politician who sees and twists facts his own way, and refutes facts presented by others as , your favorite emoji. You don't want to engage in actual discussion, you belittle innocently phrased personal opinions as if the poster was an idiot, hence your frequent use of your favorite emoji. Just read your first and second post in this section.
You talk like you are right and everyone else is wrong. As I mentioned in my posting, practically the entire performance system is different from even the base C63. The cars stance is lower and wider, the steering feel is different and the suspension is tighter. The handling and ride feel different. The brakes are different. This is all compared to the base C63. The S has the added tweaks that Kuba has already mentioned.
You stated that you can't stand "miss information", so when you hear what you think is misinformation, your first response is to ram their mistake down their throat. Your first berating responses came to a poster making a simple, non-pointed observation about badging the car, not even a "factual error". You just come off with a sour attitude and it seems as if you feel better by making your position superior to everyone else on the forum. Sometimes it's not each point of fact that is critical, but the general method of communication and positive support for fellow enthusiasts. Heated discussions can develop, but right out of the gate? On a non-threatening post?
Be a little kinder and gentler.....and change your emoji. You are not perfect either.

Vipershade

Anyone that makes this comparison:

...has virtually no idea what they are taking about...

At least Kuba brought facts with him and didn't make absurd statements.

Strafe1

Congratulations on taking a phrase out of context and berating my posts yet again. Another example of you hand picking statements to make a point that makes you somehow the resident expert.
I've driven all these cars, even prior to public release, in closed track conditions. I've spoken to the technicians face to face who service and set up these cars. I have owned 4 AMG's and 2 non AMG's over 25 continuous years and would consider myself moderately experienced in driving skill and general automotive knowledge. Don't presume to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know everything, but I'm not an idiot either.
But it's not about proving one's credentials, it's about communicating with courtesy and respect. That's what I've been trying to say.
Either you're 15 years old and like reading marketing specs and then call yourself an expert, or you have an ego problem and think you're never wrong. That's what your posts say, taken in their entirety, not just select phrases.
I'm not the only one who has said this either, it's been mentioned by other posters, and on other threads as I've discovered.

All I've wanted to say is these two cars are great in there own right, but are quite different in there underpinnings and set up despite the AMG touch in both. It's just different levels of AMG-ness throughout and it adds up to a lot. I've also hoped that you'd respect other people's opinion and forgive them for their mistakes but you don't seem to have that in you. You discredit yourself and you are more of a thorn in this online community than a welcomed reply. I'm done replying to your posts as it appears I have taken the bait too many times already.
Nevertheless, drive safe and try to remember we're all on the same side, and we love cars.

Vipershade

Here is the whole context:

Please tell us what was taken out of context?

Vipershade

How do you even come up with stuff like that? You own an AMG, so automatically you believe that you know everything about the 450? Where would you even get the idea that they are miles apart? Please help us understand your logic.

Vipershade

And just so that everyone is clear, if this statement is out-of-context, please state the implied context:

Before I provide the facts that you have conveniently ignored.

Vipershade

You ask me why I am salty... this is why. People like this get on social media and start off by supporting someone with their same opinion and they go directly into personal attacks. They attempt to dazzle the reader with their knowledge and creditials, but never once do they provide a single ounce of tangable fact. They believe because they are an owner and have talked to someone that actually does know, that they should be afforded the same respect. Everything that they say is gospel and everything that you say is "very wrong" and "It's laughable at the argument you are trying to make."

Is this really the type of information that you want to spend your time reading? I am just seriously sick and tired of people like this getting passes because nobody wants to stand up and call them on it.

Take a look at this guys posting history. He provides zero facts and goes for the person attacks. He has been belittling the C450 for over 8 months, and I am convinced that he has never even seen one (let alone compared one side-by-side to a C63).

Take the four post in this thread. We get personal attack (red), baseless factless information (blue), personal credentials (green), and finally information that requires no proof (black). Here are the four posts in their entirety (otherwise, they will be seen as out of context):




Sorry I wasted everyone's time pointing out this worthless set of posts that completely deviated this entire thread. But everyone always gives people like this a pass and it empowers them to continue to spur worthless time-wasting blather.

AMGAffalterbach

^ Coming from the man who replied "in case you need help reading" when I said I'm not crazy about the naming scheme known as AMG sport, an opinion that is purely subjective and doesn't require any fact. Wow.

c4004matic

Fought this fight before, its pointless.....