Mike5215

Yeah that first dealer had low fees in my experience. Acquisition here both in Fl and Alabama where I bought mine were $1095. Dealer fees in FL were $799, a little less in Alabama.

MF seems to hover around .00152 on 300s and .00129 on 450s. A basis point would be a whole number before the decimal once you convert the MF to an APR (which the spreadsheet does). So a swing from 3.9 to 4.0 is a tenth of a point.

Rates are so low I don't sweat small swings, but I won't pay a dealer markup on the MF. To make shopping comparisons fair some stuff...dealer fee, acq fee, MF has to stay apple to apple. Otherwise it's a game of 3 card Monty where they just shuffle extra profit from one column to another.

All things being equal, comparison should come down to trade value and MSRP discount.

The SS is good at exposing a dealers attempt to make you a great offer on the trade, or a great discount off MSRP, only to quietly claw it back out and recover some of it in padded fees buried elsewhere they think you won't catch.

flycaster

Man, these dealers can be snakes in the grass. As I have learned more and more about how to negotiate a lease, I have gotten more aggressive and have gone to other dealers. Yesterday afternoon I left a dealer with the thought that I had made a great deal. Before leaving I had asked the sales mgr if the numbers we were talking were correct as I had to go home and make sure everything was correct. Each time I asked him to confirm the numbers, he agreed they were correct.

Shortly after I left the dealership, I phoned the rep (he was a new and naive rep and the SM did the wheeling and dealing) and asked him to send me the figures as confirmation of whet we had agreed upon. Here's the email I got from him, and I'm sure that the SM wrote it...Note that he didn't put in what they thought the monthly should be, and furthermore this email gives me the uncomfortable feeling that they are reneging on the deal and looking to get me out of it. Anyway, I emailed them back with a copy of my SS, stating (in a very non-threatening manner) that we may have some semantic misunderstanding and would they kindly review the SS and show me where they differ. BTW, their worksheet showed very little and I had difficulty in understanding how the numbers were worked out...which I let them know.

"Hi Adam, attached is a worksheet showing the payment with $2500 down. The total of the items you wanted to pay for upfront that we discussed with bob came to $2527. I’m not sure why the program that your using is giving you a payment of $549. We have nothing to hide and we want you to feel comfortable with your purchase. The program we use by Mercedes-Benz however calculates the payment to be different then $549 so I want you to be fully informed of this and not felt mislead."

Mike5215

I love the "program you're using" part. You mean Excel? The question for the dealer is "where are we off?". That's it. Which value or values has one of us input incorrectly?

I'd write back and just ask to see their complete lease break down so you can hunt down the discrepancy yourself for them.

Usually, rather than going home to work the numbers, I take the spreadsheet on a laptop into the dealership and build the deal simultaneously. Then have the SM or FI guy confirm your numbers. If the numbers don't agree, show them the SS and ask where they think you're off.

Or have them show you the screen with their calculations and you tell them where they're off. I can tell you that very few salesmen can calculate a lease payment. They rely on the FI guy for the numbers.

flycaster

The funny thing is that I did have the computer/SS with me and we did go over the figures...with agreement before I left. The disagreement came about when the rep (SM) replied later to my request for them to email the confirmation of the numbers we were using. And, I did then email them my SS asking for them to show me where the differences were. I still think they are trying to weasel out of the deal...but we'll see how they respond before passing final judgment.

Mike5215

Got it. If you guys agreed at the dealership why didn't they write up the deal and get the deposit then and there?

If they get the sense you're hopping from store to store playing the numbers but unwilling to pull the trigger thinking there must be a better deal out there somewhere...

My position is, if they give me what I ask for, I buy their car, on the spot. I just use the SS to confirm they're actually giving me what I asked for. You have to be willing to pull the trigger if they give you the deal you asked for. Otherwise they assume you're dicking them around.

flycaster

Actually, there was no pressure from them to close the deal at that point in time. They never said, or even came close to saying: " We gave you what you want so let's close now." Sure, I said I have to digest it all as I was somewhat confused (as in reality, they were saying some things that I thought did not jive with the spreadsheet and had to see if everything checked out.) They were alright with that. We'll see what happens on Monday...

Mike5215

In the trade they call you a "be back". For every dozen Be Backs, maybe one turns into an actual sale. If there's ever a time when they'll cut their own throat a little to close a deal it's then and there. No digesting. Use that leverage of being a live buyer to your advantage. If you get the deal you asked for, lock it up on the spot.

This process, that you've been going through for days, took me about fifteen minutes, all by email. I asked for the deal I wanted...10% off on a build, MF of .00152, residual of 63% for 36/15k, $25k on my trade. They agreed. I asked for a breakout from the SM. That came back clean (verified by SS). Asked them to send me a CC auth form, faxed back for a $2500 deposit. Done.

flycaster

Mike, you've been a great leasing mentor, but I may not have been the best student. Yes, you are right, I turned this into a game as I felt I was gaining more confidence in getting a great deal. Nonetheless, I will be back on Tuesday to hopefully cement a deal that is just about the same as you did and is active as the the appointment has been made with the salesperson. Quite frankly, I held off on this as I felt that the 30 basis points that were being added to the 0.00121 wasn't fair. Now, I hope they honor it and don't bring up figures that weren't initially discussed.

Mike5215

Well if they didn't meet your conditions then I agree there's no deal to pull the trigger on. So where did the .00121 figure come from? Is that the going MF from Edmunds? I know in March the MF from MB was .00152 on the 300, and .00129 on the C450.

So they went from a 2.9 apr to 3.6, or 7/10ths of a point? What was the effect on payment?

flycaster

From what I understand, the 0.00121 is the present MBFS MF. The effect is: with a $5000 discount and a 6% interest rate, and 0.00121 vs 0.00151, the monthlies go from $549.66 to $564.01, a difference of $14.35/mo X 36 = $516.60...$500 better off in my pocket, but it looks as though I'll be doing the 0.00151 on Tuesday. What I found to be interesting is that although two dealers I negotiated with were both allied with Autonation, one had the 0.00121 and the other had 0.00151, whereas an independent dealer was at 0.00121.

flycaster

I've run out of energy and have finally decided on a deal. Perhaps maybe not the best deal, but a good one as I started out at $666/mo and am now down to $550/mo. The fees and monies due at signing were just about the same with both deals, but at a $4200 difference in my favor over 3 years does make me happy...and I got the 0.00121 instead of the 0.00151 MF. I did feel obligated, though, to go back to the next best deal ($566 with the 0.00151 MF) and offer them a chance to match it, but the rep was wise in not doing it because he knowingly said: "If I go down and match, the the other guy will do better. And, I just don't this kind of business." Which, BTW, tells me that there is more money to be discounted, eh? Also, I just learned today that the dealer/doc fee is all dealer profit and I probably could have negotiated a lower dealer fee, but like I said, I'm tired and now just want the car.

Thanks again for all your help, Mike. And, knowing what I now know, I can't wait for my next leasing deal.

Mike5215

Awesome. For the record, I treat the dealer fee, which is as you said just a baseline guarantee of some profit on every deal, as sacred, and just focus on MSRP discount. I also won't touch the hold-back, if there is one. MB does not pay a hold back.

I usually don't play one store against another. I construct a deal I feel is fair. First dealer to take it, takes it. It's normal after they take it to think "Aha! I could have gotten them to go lower" but that's true of every negotiation. In a successful negotiation each side walks away thinking they could have done just a little better.

You fought hard and got a great deal. More importantly you completely understand the deal you got. Enjoy the car!

flycaster

Thanks for recognizing my path to leasing maturity. Quite frankly, if in the beginning as I was learning the ins/outs of leasing, I had seen your philosophy on first constructing a fair deal and then going for it, I don't think I would have gotten the deal I did as I wouldn't have known just what a fair deal was. In my naiveté, unknowingly, I became a bull of a negotiator that got lucky. BTW, here's the car that will be mine in a couple of months (has to be factory ordered.)
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicl...b=tab-exterior

Mike5215

You did well. A couple more deals and you'll be a total pro. I think there's a difference between a fair deal and a killer deal. I don't have the interest generally in doing the work to get a killer deal. Fair is ok for me at this point. I probably leave some money on the table as far as not hammering a deeper discount, or squeezing an extra few hundred dollars out of the trade.

DonRufio

Hi Mike,<br/><br/>Could you please take a look at this for me? I'm quite not sure if I am doing this right as the comparison to the dealer quote is off.<br/><br/>The 8.5k down payment is due to not having really established a credit history and this is the only way for myself to get the car. I only have my phone bill and a credit card limit at 10k. <br/><br/>Thank you!

If I use this website http://www.apa.ca/leasecalculator.asp the payment is spot on...am I getting screwed? FYI in Quebec there is a sales tax on cash payments at the dealers apparently...according to the government website.

Mike5215

Hey, so what is "lease protection" and how much of that entire fee is tint? Can you post a line item breakdown of that fee.

The discount is 1%, which is very low.

The residual is low because it's a 45 month lease.

I don't understand the amounts down in Due At Signing. The Dealer fee looks odd.

On the variance, did they quote you $635 or is that the number that was already in the spreadsheet. If so change it to what the dealer quoted you.

DonRufio

Lease protection is First Class Lease Protection which covers any excessive wear and tear to the car. I am covered up to $3500. The total costs associated with the Tint, Prepaid Maintenance, and Protection I estimated it at $2812.99 (wasn't sure if I was to input this with the MSRP or separate it as a dealers fee),

The amount Due At Signing is my cash down payment of 8500, tire tax 12, taxes on these (it's a Quebec government law...GST/425.6 PST 849.07) plus 1st payment $756.52 = total of $10, 543.19

The variance is the calculation from the spreadsheet while the right side shows the dealers quote. I don't know what Implicit Finance Charge is and why the variance on the dealers Total Lease Cost is +10K compared to the automatic spreadsheet of $31K.

Mike5215

They may calculate stuff differently in Canada and as a result the SS may not be accurate.

I would not buy excess wear and tear coverage. Normal wear and tear is already acceptable and covered for free. MB corporate has a lease turn in guide that details what wear and tear is ok. First Class is a third party company, not Mercedes Benz, and at claim time, they suck. If you decide to keep the car, or trade the car in, that money is gone.

Tint through the dealer, who just sends your car down the road to the same tint shop you can go to, is marked up a lot. Just have it tinted after you take delivery. I don't generally get PPM but that's up to you.

martinm1

what is the current MF and residual for 7500 mi and both 24 and 36 mo on an AMG C63 sedan? I am looking to order a cab, but want to get an approximation. I was told that AMG models take a hit on the lease with lower residuals. Great discussion BTW and thanks!

-=Hot|Ice=-

How much does an MSD reduce the MF by?

flycaster

Each MSD (your monthly payment rounded to the nearest $50) will reduce the MF by 0.00007. So, if you give 10 MSDs, then your MF is reduced by 0.0007. BTW, another way of looking at this is to multiply the MF value by 2400, and you get its APR value. So, a MF reduction of 0.0007 translates into an ARP reduction of 0.0007X2400=1.68%. Go for it and good luck.

-=Hot|Ice=-

Thank you so much! Auto-pay reduces it by another .0001, correct?

flycaster

Correct.

4top455

HI Mike,
Thanks foir all the great tips and info.I wanted to share my recent negotiation and see if you could comment on the following .I hope to finalize in a day or so and would value the Forum's feedback.

This is in CA .
300C COUPE w Premium Pkg 1 and Sport Pkg w 19 inch AMG wheels, Trunk spoiler .
3yr/36000 MILES
MSRP: 51025
Residual 58% (29590)
Selling price : 44025
MF (With 10 msd and Autopay) = 0.00032 0therwise 0.00112
Downpmt: 0
No trade in
OTD (DMV+REG+DEALER)= 1017.75 + 5000 (Multiple Security Deposits) =6017.52
Mthly $496 incl. tax

Maz Desougi

Can someone let me know if this deal is good ? I want to pull the trigger on it this week.c300 coupe.pdf