Mercedes Benz...really??
07-02-2016, 02:35 PM
#26
Super Member
News Flash- Hondas and Toyotas have been more reliable than any German brand for decades. Overbuilt and over engineered are two different things and in my experience German cars are overbuilt but there exists no corporate shame in Germany for releasing a car with a transmission or steering rack prone to failure. In Japan, that would generate career ending shame in the engineers and executives. It's a different culture, almost a fanaticism over quality.
While I do have a MB, I'm under no illusion in expecting Honda/Toyota reliability. That's why I also have a Honda.
While I do have a MB, I'm under no illusion in expecting Honda/Toyota reliability. That's why I also have a Honda.
07-02-2016, 03:08 PM
#27
When JAL 123 crashed, the maintenance supervisor who authorised the shoddy repair that caused the bulkhead to explode killed himself.
If it had been a Lufthansa flight that crashed the maintenance supervisor would have been promoted!
If it had been a Lufthansa flight that crashed the maintenance supervisor would have been promoted!
07-02-2016, 03:18 PM
#28
Super Member
Indeed, correct, that the head of maintenance at JAL killed himself. Contrast that to American 191, another poor maintenance related crash.
Last edited by Zavato; 07-02-2016 at 03:32 PM.
07-02-2016, 08:45 PM
#29
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Update part II: Got the car back yesterday...and yes the acoustic glass did remedy my wind noise issue. The car was originally in to have 2 injectors replaced...which according to the service sheet was done. Driving today...the car once again starts vibrating and won't accelerate...when stopped it feels like it's about to shut down. So now once again it has to go back...this is really effin pissin' me off. I was in the car with my daughter and thought I would end up having to push it off to the side of the road...the freakin' car limped the rest of the way home. So just when I thought my troubles were over...the saga continues!!!
07-02-2016, 08:59 PM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
As a long time Benz owner, this stuff is a huge embarrassment. IMO MB should be proactive in buying back these 205's with chronic issues. It's their top selling car and some of them are just flat out turds. Between this stuff and watering down AMG, I'm not sure what Benz's rep will be in ten years.
07-02-2016, 10:20 PM
#31
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2016 C450 AMG
I too am a long time benz owner and have had zero issues with a single one. In fact I have loved the reliability mercedes benz provides.
I do feel for people who have had issues with their vehicles and perhaps its bad luck but I would start to question the authenticity of complaints for mere minor issues of course minor issues are subjective to each person. In consecutive cars that were replaced through lemon law or where repairs were attempted and failed. The overall build quality of cars in general has been improved greatly since the 90s.
I will say I hold dealerships wayyyyy more responsible to an mercedes factory.
I have known dealerships to be horrible and I have known others to be top notch. And while it could be difficult if you don't have a selection of dealers available to you due to rurality or whatever. I defi can see corporate bring to account dealerships that have poor track records either with repairs and or sales. I don't know how mercedes handles bad dealers. But if repairs keep getting screwed up I would change dealers asap.
I do feel for people who have had issues with their vehicles and perhaps its bad luck but I would start to question the authenticity of complaints for mere minor issues of course minor issues are subjective to each person. In consecutive cars that were replaced through lemon law or where repairs were attempted and failed. The overall build quality of cars in general has been improved greatly since the 90s.
I will say I hold dealerships wayyyyy more responsible to an mercedes factory.
I have known dealerships to be horrible and I have known others to be top notch. And while it could be difficult if you don't have a selection of dealers available to you due to rurality or whatever. I defi can see corporate bring to account dealerships that have poor track records either with repairs and or sales. I don't know how mercedes handles bad dealers. But if repairs keep getting screwed up I would change dealers asap.
07-02-2016, 10:24 PM
#32
As a long time Benz owner, this stuff is a huge embarrassment. IMO MB should be proactive in buying back these 205's with chronic issues. It's their top selling car and some of them are just flat out turds. Between this stuff and watering down AMG, I'm not sure what Benz's rep will be in ten years.
07-02-2016, 10:28 PM
#33
I too am a long time benz owner and have had zero issues with a single one. In fact I have loved the reliability mercedes benz provides.
I do feel for people who have had issues with their vehicles and perhaps its bad luck but I would start to question the authenticity of complaints for mere minor issues of course minor issues are subjective to each person. In consecutive cars that were replaced through lemon law or where repairs were attempted and failed. The overall build quality of cars in general has been improved greatly since the 90s.
I will say I hold dealerships wayyyyy more responsible to an mercedes factory.
I have known dealerships to be horrible and I have known others to be top notch. And while it could be difficult if you don't have a selection of dealers available to you due to rurality or whatever. I defi can see corporate bring to account dealerships that have poor track records either with repairs and or sales. I don't know how mercedes handles bad dealers. But if repairs keep getting screwed up I would change dealers asap.
I do feel for people who have had issues with their vehicles and perhaps its bad luck but I would start to question the authenticity of complaints for mere minor issues of course minor issues are subjective to each person. In consecutive cars that were replaced through lemon law or where repairs were attempted and failed. The overall build quality of cars in general has been improved greatly since the 90s.
I will say I hold dealerships wayyyyy more responsible to an mercedes factory.
I have known dealerships to be horrible and I have known others to be top notch. And while it could be difficult if you don't have a selection of dealers available to you due to rurality or whatever. I defi can see corporate bring to account dealerships that have poor track records either with repairs and or sales. I don't know how mercedes handles bad dealers. But if repairs keep getting screwed up I would change dealers asap.
07-02-2016, 10:49 PM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
In deciding to buy an MB one of the factors I considered was that I did see much older models still on the road...which I took for a sign that these cars were built to last. But let me ask a question...and from the posts I've read it appears that most here have worked hard to be able to become a part of the MB family...in other words you weren't born with a "silver spoon" in your mouth. Do you think that the fact that the MB is now a car that most peeps can afford has anything to do with the quality of the vehicle. I'll be honest...what originally got me into the dealership was the CLA. As a youngster I looked at the MB as a car for the rich...it said you had arrived. I've read posts where folks have indicated that MB should be embarrassed...and they should but there's no way they can be more embarrassed than me...I have a sticker on my forehead which reads..."sucker".
07-02-2016, 11:33 PM
#35
In deciding to buy an MB one of the factors I considered was that I did see much older models still on the road...which I took for a sign that these cars were built to last. But let me ask a question...and from the posts I've read it appears that most here have worked hard to be able to become a part of the MB family...in other words you weren't born with a "silver spoon" in your mouth. Do you think that the fact that the MB is now a car that most peeps can afford has anything to do with the quality of the vehicle. I'll be honest...what originally got me into the dealership was the CLA. As a youngster I looked at the MB as a car for the rich...it said you had arrived. I've read posts where folks have indicated that MB should be embarrassed...and they should but there's no way they can be more embarrassed than me...I have a sticker on my forehead which reads..."sucker".
As someone who grew up riding in Benzes that my parents bought as second owners because they appreciated the solidity and durability, and who came to love Mercedes' cars myself for those very reasons, I cringe when I see some of the more recent models. I need a new car soon, and one of the things that's kept me from pulling the trigger on the C class is a concern that it's not really a Mercedes in the way that I would think of that term—that it's a flimsier, more carelessly or cost-consciously designed car made for people who like saying they drive a Mercedes more than they like the actual experience of driving a Mercedes (that is, interacting with the engineering).
07-03-2016, 12:35 AM
#36
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2016 C450 AMG
I mean this as nothing against you or anyone else who aspired to own an MB and saw the CLA as a way in to the company—I look down on the CLA (not necessarily its owners) as a cynical, cheap, and, in the long-term, bad-for-Mercedes attempt to exploit the brand's history by slapping the star (in a major way, what with that diamond grill) on a tinny, cheap feeling car that isn't even RWD. It's a car sold to people who either assume that a Mercedes must be a great car because they see cars from the 80s and 70s still around and know that rich people drive them, or who don't even care if the car lasts forever because they're going to lease and release and are buying for the badge.
As someone who grew up riding in Benzes that my parents bought as second owners because they appreciated the solidity and durability, and who came to love Mercedes' cars myself for those very reasons, I cringe when I see some of the more recent models. I need a new car soon, and one of the things that's kept me from pulling the trigger on the C class is a concern that it's not really a Mercedes in the way that I would think of that term—that it's a flimsier, more carelessly or cost-consciously designed car made for people who like saying they drive a Mercedes more than they like the actual experience of driving a Mercedes (that is, interacting with the engineering).
As someone who grew up riding in Benzes that my parents bought as second owners because they appreciated the solidity and durability, and who came to love Mercedes' cars myself for those very reasons, I cringe when I see some of the more recent models. I need a new car soon, and one of the things that's kept me from pulling the trigger on the C class is a concern that it's not really a Mercedes in the way that I would think of that term—that it's a flimsier, more carelessly or cost-consciously designed car made for people who like saying they drive a Mercedes more than they like the actual experience of driving a Mercedes (that is, interacting with the engineering).
Cant expect 100k quality on a 28k car. Doesn't mean mercedes shouldn't produce a car for 28k that people want.
07-03-2016, 12:43 AM
#37
Super Member
I don't really believe that. Mercedes is first and foremost a for profit corporation that has shareholders. It is in there best interest to sell models that young adults growing into their profession and start making more money to one day but a more expensive mercedes. If they get you with a cla chances are very high your next car will be a mercedes. Maybe another cla maybe a c or an e. The idea is you start brand loyalty early. I myself started with an 07 c230 and worked my way up to an e class.
Cant expect 100k quality on a 28k car. Doesn't mean mercedes shouldn't produce a car for 28k that people want.
Cant expect 100k quality on a 28k car. Doesn't mean mercedes shouldn't produce a car for 28k that people want.
07-03-2016, 01:03 AM
#38
Don't really buy into that as a very bad initial experience could easily sour someone on the brand. As for a quality $28,000 car on par with a $100,000 car? You may be able to buy more power, finer materials, more refinement, more gadgets, more room, more features, in a $100,000 car but in this day and age, the basic quality, which I define as everything works right, the way it's supposed to work, should be present in equal measure in the $28,000 and $100,000 car
07-03-2016, 10:47 AM
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Agree. If I buy a CLA and realize it rides rougher than an Accord, drives no differently, and isn't as reliable or well-built...I'm not necessarily going to make my next purchase a C, E, or S. It doesn't cost 100,000 bucks to make a reliable car or a decent-handling car. If Mercedes can't make a decent 30k car, then it's better served getting out of that space.
I couldn't agree more...whether it's fine dining or McDonalds...you should have a certain level of enjoyment from both. You certainly wouldn't accept poorly cooked food simply because it's McDonalds. And yes there is a certain level of expectation with the fine dining experience and as such you're willing to pay more. In any case MB has failed...I'm glad they don't make airplanes!!
07-03-2016, 12:16 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
The era of bulletproof Mercedes effectively ended in the 1980s-1990s. Go visit an Indie shop (where owners of these pre modern era cars tend to go for service) and you'll see dozens of them, in decent shape with mid six figure odometer readings. My favorite part of visiting my local indie is marveling at the old built like a brick **** house cars with their huge steering wheels, factory cassette decks and clunky dashboards. Dated but still on the road.
At some point MB decided, probably due to fuel economy restrictions, that heavy, durable construction had to give way to lighter stuff. To make up the safety gap, they turned to tech. Pre Safe, accident avoidance, multiple airbags, etc.
So the cars got more complex, and less hefty, and less durable. Greater complexity meant more systems prone to failure. Current MBs are infinitely smarter and equally less sturdy and reliable than their predecessors.
It's across the board. A W140 S Class is a tank compared to a W222. A 190E (the original Baby Benz and most closely related to the current C in terms of size and market) would destroy a W205 in a head on. (The W205 occupants probably stand a greater chance of surviving though).
The days of MB representing over engineered, over built high quality luxury cars that with care could last decades and hundreds of thousands of miles are over.
At some point MB decided, probably due to fuel economy restrictions, that heavy, durable construction had to give way to lighter stuff. To make up the safety gap, they turned to tech. Pre Safe, accident avoidance, multiple airbags, etc.
So the cars got more complex, and less hefty, and less durable. Greater complexity meant more systems prone to failure. Current MBs are infinitely smarter and equally less sturdy and reliable than their predecessors.
It's across the board. A W140 S Class is a tank compared to a W222. A 190E (the original Baby Benz and most closely related to the current C in terms of size and market) would destroy a W205 in a head on. (The W205 occupants probably stand a greater chance of surviving though).
The days of MB representing over engineered, over built high quality luxury cars that with care could last decades and hundreds of thousands of miles are over.
07-03-2016, 01:03 PM
#41
The trouble is that some of these "golden era" Benzes were also prone to problems.
The 3.8 V8 equipped models had a single row timing chain that was very prone to failures, so Mercedes had to add a double row timing chain. The turbodiesel OM 603 engine suffered of cylinder head problems. The M104 inline six suffered of head gasket failures. Even so, satisfaction surveys always showed Mercedes at the top.
But then along came Lexus... And boy oh boy... Mercedes really failed to keep up with the Japanese. Lexus may be boring, but you've got to doff your hat for their enviable reliability record, which translates in higher resale value than any Mercedes.
For the record, I'm not a hater. I want to see Mercedes doing well in satisfaction surveys. I want to see Mercedes to do well and to see every Mercedes owner happy and coming back to buy another one, but they clearly can't be bothered with any of that because they are hellbent in the pursuit of beating Audi and BMW until 2020. That's right, Mercedes-Benz doesn't see Lexus as a rival, in fairness though, Lexus is only really relevant in the U.S market; in the rest of the world people don't even know what the **** is a Lexus.
Anyway, Mercedes decided that the best way to beat Audi and BMW was to launch an el cheapo range to draw more people into the brand, but what's the point if the execution is poor? I have the feeling that this arrogance will bite them in the **** by 2020.
The 3.8 V8 equipped models had a single row timing chain that was very prone to failures, so Mercedes had to add a double row timing chain. The turbodiesel OM 603 engine suffered of cylinder head problems. The M104 inline six suffered of head gasket failures. Even so, satisfaction surveys always showed Mercedes at the top.
But then along came Lexus... And boy oh boy... Mercedes really failed to keep up with the Japanese. Lexus may be boring, but you've got to doff your hat for their enviable reliability record, which translates in higher resale value than any Mercedes.
For the record, I'm not a hater. I want to see Mercedes doing well in satisfaction surveys. I want to see Mercedes to do well and to see every Mercedes owner happy and coming back to buy another one, but they clearly can't be bothered with any of that because they are hellbent in the pursuit of beating Audi and BMW until 2020. That's right, Mercedes-Benz doesn't see Lexus as a rival, in fairness though, Lexus is only really relevant in the U.S market; in the rest of the world people don't even know what the **** is a Lexus.
Anyway, Mercedes decided that the best way to beat Audi and BMW was to launch an el cheapo range to draw more people into the brand, but what's the point if the execution is poor? I have the feeling that this arrogance will bite them in the **** by 2020.
Last edited by TonyMeister; 07-03-2016 at 01:21 PM.
07-03-2016, 01:15 PM
#42
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2016 C450 AMG
Don't really buy into that as a very bad initial experience could easily sour someone on the brand. As for a quality $28,000 car on par with a $100,000 car? You may be able to buy more power, finer materials, more refinement, more gadgets, more room, more features, in a $100,000 car but in this day and age, the basic quality, which I define as everything works right, the way it's supposed to work, should be present in equal measure in the $28,000 and $100,000 car
I stand by what I said mercedes should produce a car people love and want and an initial entry point should that car have 100k refinement no. But it should be just as reliable just as safe and just as quality as its competing segments from other manufactures. If not better. (I guess I expanded on my initial 100k comment).
I am quite sure you will find people who loved their cla others who hated it. Just as I am sure you will find people who love accord and who hate them. My aunt has driven accords all her life when she drove my mercedes she loved it. Always said it turned on a dime and the accord drove like a boat.
You will find you cant please everyone but hopefully you please more than not.
Again I have no personal exp with cla nor know anyone who has one. And a lot of folks on this forum are huge car guys and gals who know a helluva lot more about cars than I do. And you are right if a consumer sours on a brand that might be the end of the relationship. They will always have those types of customers cant win em all. Should mercedes lose them over stupid mistakes that shouldn't have happened? Yes and sometimes they do. Every company does and doesn't make the right decisions all the time that affect customer loyalty its just is what it is.
07-03-2016, 01:52 PM
#43
Super Member
MY .02. Bought my 1st MB--a 1971 280SL. Great car. Have bought 35 MB's over the years. Mostly very good.( I have always been a car nut. Over 125 total cars. A rally competitor,911's 1 Ferrari etc) As I am now much older & retired I thought it was time to try some less expensive transportation.
Here is my great new adventure. My wife's MB's have been replaced by a 2016 HYUNDAI SUV. It is loaded,including most of the latest electronics,pano roof,19" wheels etc. It has not been back to the dealer since we bought it last OCT. We love the car. No rattles or any mechanical problems--even burns reg gas. MSRP $35,000.
Part 2. Trade my ML (very good) for a fun car-- 2015 CPO Audi A3 Cabrio w/15,000 mi. Another great car. No wind noises or rattles @80+ mph with the top up & good performance & 35 mpg on 1,100 mi recent trip. Again no trips back to the dealer.
My comments are in no way to knock MB. NEVER thought that we would be driving anything other than another another MB. Especially a Hyundai. There is another world out there that has completely satisfied our wants & needs. Hope you all accept my comments as I intended them.
P.S. Total expense to buy both cars $60,000. Both came with long mfg warranties.
Here is my great new adventure. My wife's MB's have been replaced by a 2016 HYUNDAI SUV. It is loaded,including most of the latest electronics,pano roof,19" wheels etc. It has not been back to the dealer since we bought it last OCT. We love the car. No rattles or any mechanical problems--even burns reg gas. MSRP $35,000.
Part 2. Trade my ML (very good) for a fun car-- 2015 CPO Audi A3 Cabrio w/15,000 mi. Another great car. No wind noises or rattles @80+ mph with the top up & good performance & 35 mpg on 1,100 mi recent trip. Again no trips back to the dealer.
My comments are in no way to knock MB. NEVER thought that we would be driving anything other than another another MB. Especially a Hyundai. There is another world out there that has completely satisfied our wants & needs. Hope you all accept my comments as I intended them.
P.S. Total expense to buy both cars $60,000. Both came with long mfg warranties.
Last edited by greasykid; 07-03-2016 at 02:00 PM.
07-03-2016, 02:34 PM
#44
I don't really believe that. Mercedes is first and foremost a for profit corporation that has shareholders. It is in there best interest to sell models that young adults growing into their profession and start making more money to one day but a more expensive mercedes. If they get you with a cla chances are very high your next car will be a mercedes. Maybe another cla maybe a c or an e. The idea is you start brand loyalty early. I myself started with an 07 c230 and worked my way up to an e class.
Cant expect 100k quality on a 28k car. Doesn't mean mercedes shouldn't produce a car for 28k that people want.
Cant expect 100k quality on a 28k car. Doesn't mean mercedes shouldn't produce a car for 28k that people want.
Is the CLA45 worth checking out?
07-03-2016, 02:41 PM
#45
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2018 GT R; Tesla M3P
MY .02. Bought my 1st MB--a 1971 280SL. Great car. Have bought 35 MB's over the years. Mostly very good.( I have always been a car nut. Over 125 total cars. A rally competitor,911's 1 Ferrari etc) As I am now much older & retired I thought it was time to try some less expensive transportation.
Here is my great new adventure. My wife's MB's have been replaced by a 2016 HYUNDAI SUV. It is loaded,including most of the latest electronics,pano roof,19" wheels etc. It has not been back to the dealer since we bought it last OCT. We love the car. No rattles or any mechanical problems--even burns reg gas. MSRP $35,000.
Part 2. Trade my ML (very good) for a fun car-- 2015 CPO Audi A3 Cabrio w/15,000 mi. Another great car. No wind noises or rattles @80+ mph with the top up & good performance & 35 mpg on 1,100 mi recent trip. Again no trips back to the dealer.
My comments are in no way to knock MB. NEVER thought that we would be driving anything other than another another MB. Especially a Hyundai. There is another world out there that has completely satisfied our wants & needs. Hope you all accept my comments as I intended them.
P.S. Total expense to buy both cars $60,000. Both came with long mfg warranties.
Here is my great new adventure. My wife's MB's have been replaced by a 2016 HYUNDAI SUV. It is loaded,including most of the latest electronics,pano roof,19" wheels etc. It has not been back to the dealer since we bought it last OCT. We love the car. No rattles or any mechanical problems--even burns reg gas. MSRP $35,000.
Part 2. Trade my ML (very good) for a fun car-- 2015 CPO Audi A3 Cabrio w/15,000 mi. Another great car. No wind noises or rattles @80+ mph with the top up & good performance & 35 mpg on 1,100 mi recent trip. Again no trips back to the dealer.
My comments are in no way to knock MB. NEVER thought that we would be driving anything other than another another MB. Especially a Hyundai. There is another world out there that has completely satisfied our wants & needs. Hope you all accept my comments as I intended them.
P.S. Total expense to buy both cars $60,000. Both came with long mfg warranties.
07-08-2016, 09:39 PM
#46
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Update: Dropped the car off on Thursday...was notified today that apparently they installed a damaged/defective
fuel injector which needs to be replaced. In the spirit of customer service they decided they would tint my windows (for free) after replacing them with acoustic glass which btw remedied the wind noise. I pick the car up tomorrow...over and out!!
fuel injector which needs to be replaced. In the spirit of customer service they decided they would tint my windows (for free) after replacing them with acoustic glass which btw remedied the wind noise. I pick the car up tomorrow...over and out!!
07-09-2016, 06:15 AM
#47
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2015 Mercedes C400
Oh man, I heard ya. I also got a C400, the engine stalls since the first week I got the car in late 2015. Been to dealer many times during the 8 months of ownership, issue still exists! The repair notes is like reading a novel long, pretty much take apart the car and put it back together and causes even more issues. The car would leaning towards to the left, front bumper got a lot of chips due to they have driven the car for extended mileage and the solution is touch up the stone chip areas and hoping I won't find out. This is rediculous that Mercedes would sell these pieces of **** with ****ty services and still haven't decided to buyback these pieces of **** after so many visits!
07-09-2016, 04:07 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Oh man, I heard ya. I also got a C400, the engine stalls since the first week I got the car in late 2015. Been to dealer many times during the 8 months of ownership, issue still exists! The repair notes is like reading a novel long, pretty much take apart the car and put it back together and causes even more issues. The car would leaning towards to the left, front bumper got a lot of chips due to they have driven the car for extended mileage and the solution is touch up the stone chip areas and hoping I won't find out. This is rediculous that Mercedes would sell these pieces of **** with ****ty services and still haven't decided to buyback these pieces of **** after so many visits!
Edit:
Options for Canadian owners with no "lemon law" coverage.
http://www.camvap.ca/arbitration/agr...Is%20Eligible?
Last edited by Mr. J; 07-09-2016 at 04:11 PM.
