Sleeping With The Enemy!
07-15-2017, 11:42 PM
#1
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Sleeping With The Enemy!
I wanted to rent a vert for a little road trip my wife and I are taking, just for fun. It was a last minute decision so I just drove up to the airport to see what they were sitting. It was either a BWM 430i or a Mustang T4. I took the BMW. Mainly because of the hard top. As expected, it sounds like a fixed roof on the highway. No flappy nonsense or buffeting.
Initial impressions: Good looking car. Looks better with the top down. Inside has nice colors but materials look cheap. I don't think it'll wear well. Fake leather feels stiff. At least I hope it's fake. Audio system is decent, certainly better out of the box than the Burmester.
Drives about like you'd expect. It's tight, feels balanced and wants to be tossed around. Suspension gives decent feedback but manages to soak up imperfections without getting unsettled or dramatic. Very smooth ride up to 100mph on the highway. Engine and gearbox are very smooth, no jerky business. Each gear is held up to the redline in the same interval (are you listening MB). The engine sound is perfect, and there's plenty of pull. Aside from the interior it feels like more car than the C300.
These impressions may change quite a bit after 2500 miles stuck in that little **** with my wife.
If I we're a buyer: Swap Michelin Pilot Supersports for the Conti run flats. Put the Prima 8.9 and Focals in it. So far I'm not a buyer.
Initial impressions: Good looking car. Looks better with the top down. Inside has nice colors but materials look cheap. I don't think it'll wear well. Fake leather feels stiff. At least I hope it's fake. Audio system is decent, certainly better out of the box than the Burmester.
Drives about like you'd expect. It's tight, feels balanced and wants to be tossed around. Suspension gives decent feedback but manages to soak up imperfections without getting unsettled or dramatic. Very smooth ride up to 100mph on the highway. Engine and gearbox are very smooth, no jerky business. Each gear is held up to the redline in the same interval (are you listening MB). The engine sound is perfect, and there's plenty of pull. Aside from the interior it feels like more car than the C300.
These impressions may change quite a bit after 2500 miles stuck in that little **** with my wife.
If I we're a buyer: Swap Michelin Pilot Supersports for the Conti run flats. Put the Prima 8.9 and Focals in it. So far I'm not a buyer.
Last edited by Mike5215; 07-15-2017 at 11:46 PM.
07-16-2017, 12:09 AM
#3
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Yeah. It's weird in that you're getting plenty of feedback but it's never harsh and the car never gets unsettled. It also doesn't creak. Mine is the 2.0 T4 but it's better than the Benz T4. Sounds like a six and smooth through the gears.
07-16-2017, 08:01 AM
#7
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Yeah the windbreak is removable and folds up to fit in the trunk. Also, there is no trunk. Even with the top up there's no room, and with it down there's less. Basically you access what limited space there is by folding down the rear seat back. For all practical purposes it's a 2 seater with a tiny amount of storage.
Also not a fan of the profile with the hard top up. It looks tacked on compared to the coupe.
Also not a fan of the profile with the hard top up. It looks tacked on compared to the coupe.
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07-16-2017, 08:04 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by ManiacGT
i love how you feel it's weird that it's good at something. Shows how poor other cars are
07-16-2017, 08:02 PM
#9
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Ok, I had a chance to stretch the BMW out a bit on a 3 hour drive, mostly interstate. Some top down driving and then we hit rain. Compared to my C300 it drives better. Where the C can feel light and flinty, especially at high speeds, the 430 feels heavier, more planted and better balanced.
I'm also shocked at how much better the drive train is. Maybe it's the tranny, or the engine's willingness to run right up to the rev limiter, but there's always plenty of power and the engine sounds great making it. Between 60 and 100 mph there's a sweet spot that makes the car a blast to goose. Certainly a more engaging car to drive hard than a 300, but that's always been the difference between MB and BMW...refinement vs performance. The C is more refined and more "polite". The C conveys you from point to point in comfort and with little drama. The BMW wants to play.
I'm also in awe of the suspension. Not sure if it has variable damping or if it's just straight steel but however they do it it's set up near perfect for the 18" all season run flats. Firm but not punishing.
Lastly, this is a 'vert, so structurally the most vulnerable in terms of solidity of the 4 series, and it doesn't have a single squeak or dash rattle. My C sounds nowhere near as quiet.
Would I buy the BMW? Probably not. My little experiment with small German cars will end with the C300. I'll get back into the CPO S/CL Class I think. But for anyone shopping in the segment, give the BMWs a shot. The interiors aren't nearly as plush or pretty, but that lack of polish is part of the car's no-bull**** approach to driving.
I'm also shocked at how much better the drive train is. Maybe it's the tranny, or the engine's willingness to run right up to the rev limiter, but there's always plenty of power and the engine sounds great making it. Between 60 and 100 mph there's a sweet spot that makes the car a blast to goose. Certainly a more engaging car to drive hard than a 300, but that's always been the difference between MB and BMW...refinement vs performance. The C is more refined and more "polite". The C conveys you from point to point in comfort and with little drama. The BMW wants to play.
I'm also in awe of the suspension. Not sure if it has variable damping or if it's just straight steel but however they do it it's set up near perfect for the 18" all season run flats. Firm but not punishing.
Lastly, this is a 'vert, so structurally the most vulnerable in terms of solidity of the 4 series, and it doesn't have a single squeak or dash rattle. My C sounds nowhere near as quiet.
Would I buy the BMW? Probably not. My little experiment with small German cars will end with the C300. I'll get back into the CPO S/CL Class I think. But for anyone shopping in the segment, give the BMWs a shot. The interiors aren't nearly as plush or pretty, but that lack of polish is part of the car's no-bull**** approach to driving.
Last edited by Mike5215; 07-16-2017 at 08:36 PM.
07-16-2017, 09:48 PM
#10
Super Member
I find this little experiment/review really intriguing. I recently spent a week with a 2014 3 series GT (the ugly one) watching it for a family member who was out of town. It's one of the longest times I've spent in a BMW and now I "get it".
This was a 328 xdrive and man that engine/transmission is a peach, it kept blowing me away with how smooth and quick it was. It made my 2014 C300 feel slow and heavy. Easily the most enjoyable 4 pot I've ever driven. The steering was vague so I was not a huge fan of it but I've heard it's been improved in more recent models.
His car has the sport package that adds the inflatable back bolsters and it was pretty well equipped so the interior didn't feel anemic like the base model 320i I rode in. With it being a GT on ****ty Continental Run Flats it didn't exactly feel as planted when driving spiritedly but I think if it had better tires and the M Sport package it would've handled closer to its sedan sibling, still a fantastic handler though. I felt like the car felt the best in Sport+ at all times, did not like Comfort mode because it would make the steering too loose and sloppy.
I think MB needs to give up making their own transmissions, ZF has proved multiple times that they can do it better and are open to selling to whoever wants them. The shifts in the BMW were lightning quick and it was always in the right gear. It didn't fumble when I did my usual: slow down> mentally yell "why the **** are you pressing your brakes when there's no one in front of you>go around idiot and mash on the Go pedal. My Merc would have this two second pause as it tried to figure out what I wanted. There's a redesigned 3/4 series on the horizon so it will be interesting to see what they can do with that platform.
This was a 328 xdrive and man that engine/transmission is a peach, it kept blowing me away with how smooth and quick it was. It made my 2014 C300 feel slow and heavy. Easily the most enjoyable 4 pot I've ever driven. The steering was vague so I was not a huge fan of it but I've heard it's been improved in more recent models.
His car has the sport package that adds the inflatable back bolsters and it was pretty well equipped so the interior didn't feel anemic like the base model 320i I rode in. With it being a GT on ****ty Continental Run Flats it didn't exactly feel as planted when driving spiritedly but I think if it had better tires and the M Sport package it would've handled closer to its sedan sibling, still a fantastic handler though. I felt like the car felt the best in Sport+ at all times, did not like Comfort mode because it would make the steering too loose and sloppy.
I think MB needs to give up making their own transmissions, ZF has proved multiple times that they can do it better and are open to selling to whoever wants them. The shifts in the BMW were lightning quick and it was always in the right gear. It didn't fumble when I did my usual: slow down> mentally yell "why the **** are you pressing your brakes when there's no one in front of you>go around idiot and mash on the Go pedal. My Merc would have this two second pause as it tried to figure out what I wanted. There's a redesigned 3/4 series on the horizon so it will be interesting to see what they can do with that platform.
07-16-2017, 10:58 PM
#11
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I find this little experiment/review really intriguing. I recently spent a week with a 2014 3 series GT (the ugly one) watching it for a family member who was out of town. It's one of the longest times I've spent in a BMW and now I "get it".
This was a 328 xdrive and man that engine/transmission is a peach, it kept blowing me away with how smooth and quick it was. It made my 2014 C300 feel slow and heavy. Easily the most enjoyable 4 pot I've ever driven. The steering was vague so I was not a huge fan of it but I've heard it's been improved in more recent models.
His car has the sport package that adds the inflatable back bolsters and it was pretty well equipped so the interior didn't feel anemic like the base model 320i I rode in. With it being a GT on ****ty Continental Run Flats it didn't exactly feel as planted when driving spiritedly but I think if it had better tires and the M Sport package it would've handled closer to its sedan sibling, still a fantastic handler though. I felt like the car felt the best in Sport+ at all times, did not like Comfort mode because it would make the steering too loose and sloppy.
I think MB needs to give up making their own transmissions, ZF has proved multiple times that they can do it better and are open to selling to whoever wants them. The shifts in the BMW were lightning quick and it was always in the right gear. It didn't fumble when I did my usual: slow down> mentally yell "why the **** are you pressing your brakes when there's no one in front of you>go around idiot and mash on the Go pedal. My Merc would have this two second pause as it tried to figure out what I wanted. There's a redesigned 3/4 series on the horizon so it will be interesting to see what they can do with that platform.
This was a 328 xdrive and man that engine/transmission is a peach, it kept blowing me away with how smooth and quick it was. It made my 2014 C300 feel slow and heavy. Easily the most enjoyable 4 pot I've ever driven. The steering was vague so I was not a huge fan of it but I've heard it's been improved in more recent models.
His car has the sport package that adds the inflatable back bolsters and it was pretty well equipped so the interior didn't feel anemic like the base model 320i I rode in. With it being a GT on ****ty Continental Run Flats it didn't exactly feel as planted when driving spiritedly but I think if it had better tires and the M Sport package it would've handled closer to its sedan sibling, still a fantastic handler though. I felt like the car felt the best in Sport+ at all times, did not like Comfort mode because it would make the steering too loose and sloppy.
I think MB needs to give up making their own transmissions, ZF has proved multiple times that they can do it better and are open to selling to whoever wants them. The shifts in the BMW were lightning quick and it was always in the right gear. It didn't fumble when I did my usual: slow down> mentally yell "why the **** are you pressing your brakes when there's no one in front of you>go around idiot and mash on the Go pedal. My Merc would have this two second pause as it tried to figure out what I wanted. There's a redesigned 3/4 series on the horizon so it will be interesting to see what they can do with that platform.
07-16-2017, 11:25 PM
#12
Super Member
Yeah it's an 8 speed. ZF also collaborates with Porsche on the PDK transmissions. Drove a 911 Turbo S with it and forget lightning quick that thing was damn near psychic.
07-17-2017, 07:29 PM
#13
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Another 3 hours today. Very fun. We've left the board flat terrain of Florida and started getting into hills and curves. Not sure the practicality of the 'vert...Too windy for highway speeds, and it's been too hot on the surface streets. That'll probably change as we go up through PA and into Upstate NY.
I will say that with the hard top up, you'd never know it was a convertible from the interior noise level, even at 90. (I had to set an overspeed warning at 90 because the car pushes past it to 100 very quickly, and my V1 is hard wired into the C.) My phone has a sound meter app so I'll get a measurement of the baseline cabin noise at some point for comparison.
Performance and handling are so good I really need to re-evaluate how I've got my C set up. I may go back to the stock rims and the runflats. 90 mph in my C is not confidence-inspiring like the 430 is. They're both the same class of cars. They should drive reasonably similar. I want to make sure I'm giving the 205 a fair shot apples to apples.
At the beginning of the trip I said I wasn't a buyer for a 4. That's changed. I think a 440 (TTV6) Coupe would be a blast as a DD.
I will say that with the hard top up, you'd never know it was a convertible from the interior noise level, even at 90. (I had to set an overspeed warning at 90 because the car pushes past it to 100 very quickly, and my V1 is hard wired into the C.) My phone has a sound meter app so I'll get a measurement of the baseline cabin noise at some point for comparison.
Performance and handling are so good I really need to re-evaluate how I've got my C set up. I may go back to the stock rims and the runflats. 90 mph in my C is not confidence-inspiring like the 430 is. They're both the same class of cars. They should drive reasonably similar. I want to make sure I'm giving the 205 a fair shot apples to apples.
At the beginning of the trip I said I wasn't a buyer for a 4. That's changed. I think a 440 (TTV6) Coupe would be a blast as a DD.
07-17-2017, 09:25 PM
#14
Super Member
Another 3 hours today. Very fun. We've left the board flat terrain of Florida and started getting into hills and curves. Not sure the practicality of the 'vert...Too windy for highway speeds, and it's been too hot on the surface streets. That'll probably change as we go up through PA and into Upstate NY.
I will say that with the hard top up, you'd never know it was a convertible from the interior noise level, even at 90. (I had to set an overspeed warning at 90 because the car pushes past it to 100 very quickly, and my V1 is hard wired into the C.) My phone has a sound meter app so I'll get a measurement of the baseline cabin noise at some point for comparison.
Performance and handling are so good I really need to re-evaluate how I've got my C set up. I may go back to the stock rims and the runflats. 90 mph in my C is not confidence-inspiring like the 430 is. They're both the same class of cars. They should drive reasonably similar. I want to make sure I'm giving the 205 a fair shot apples to apples.
At the beginning of the trip I said I wasn't a buyer for a 4. That's changed. I think a 440 (TTV6) Coupe would be a blast as a DD.
I will say that with the hard top up, you'd never know it was a convertible from the interior noise level, even at 90. (I had to set an overspeed warning at 90 because the car pushes past it to 100 very quickly, and my V1 is hard wired into the C.) My phone has a sound meter app so I'll get a measurement of the baseline cabin noise at some point for comparison.
Performance and handling are so good I really need to re-evaluate how I've got my C set up. I may go back to the stock rims and the runflats. 90 mph in my C is not confidence-inspiring like the 430 is. They're both the same class of cars. They should drive reasonably similar. I want to make sure I'm giving the 205 a fair shot apples to apples.
At the beginning of the trip I said I wasn't a buyer for a 4. That's changed. I think a 440 (TTV6) Coupe would be a blast as a DD.
07-18-2017, 12:13 AM
#15
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I'm not sure about the suspension. It's not an M Sport but there are independent dynamic settings for the chassis and drive train. Chassis could just be steering weight. I can't feel much difference either way.
Hope they don't screw up the new model. I know the current one was the least loved 3 Series ever, but I think it's the best Small German car I've driven.
Hope they don't screw up the new model. I know the current one was the least loved 3 Series ever, but I think it's the best Small German car I've driven.
07-18-2017, 09:47 AM
#16
Super Member
So doing a little research this morning. Looks like the 3 series is due for a redesign but not the 4 series. 4 Series is getting it's LCI (refresh) for 2018. You can read more about the 2018 here: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/4...-drive-review/
Looks like besides exterior/interior refresh they've also improved the suspension/steering:
The engines in both the 3/4 got upgraded in 2017 which is why they moved to the 330/430/340/440 naming so you are experiencing their newest 4 banger. It's only putting out 248 HP/ 258 lb/ft if you could believe that. A JB4 tune already exists that adds an extra 40 HP for the 4 banger and an extra 60 hp for the new Inline 6 340/440 models which is pretty beast as the 440i is already putting out 320 hp/330 lb/ft.
The new 3 will be the G20 chassis which is meant to be a total redesign, the current F30 was released in 2011 so BMW has a lot to prove now that the new C, A4, Giulia etc. are out.
Looks like besides exterior/interior refresh they've also improved the suspension/steering:
So much for the skin-deep spiffs. Let’s get to the functional suspension, steering, and brake upgrades. All 4s get new faster-acting antilock brake actuators (with lower-inertia moving parts) that improve braking precision and should shorten our 60–0 stopping distances by a few feet. Revised steering tuning yields slightly more effort just off center, giving way to more linear response thereafter. Fixed-roof 4s also get front and rear anti-roll bars that are stiffened by 10–15 percent, and this combined with slightly increased camber is said to boost lateral cornering performance noticeably. New damping technology increases the preload on the shock absorber piston and affords broader tuning possibilities, including improved low-speed body motion control. Order the Adaptive M Suspension ($700 by itself or part of a $1,700 track handling package), and you’ll supposedly feel an even greater difference between the Comfort and Sport settings. Again, these damping changes do not apply to the convertible.
The new 3 will be the G20 chassis which is meant to be a total redesign, the current F30 was released in 2011 so BMW has a lot to prove now that the new C, A4, Giulia etc. are out.
07-18-2017, 10:53 AM
#17
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Well I'm totally not on the BMWUSA website playing with configurations or anything. But the M4 Vert looks interesting. The M's I've test driven have been pretty brutal but there's an option for a standard suspension. I love the bodies and wheels on the M. Price is about where I planned to be on the next car anyway.
We're in South Carolina, sunny and low humidity plus lots of scenic 2 lane highways. If there's a case to be made for a convertible it's days like this.
We're in South Carolina, sunny and low humidity plus lots of scenic 2 lane highways. If there's a case to be made for a convertible it's days like this.
07-18-2017, 11:52 AM
#18
Super Member
Well I'm totally not on the BMWUSA website playing with configurations or anything. But the M4 Vert looks interesting. The M's I've test driven have been pretty brutal but there's an option for a standard suspension. I love the bodies and wheels on the M. Price is about where I planned to be on the next car anyway.
We're in South Carolina, sunny and low humidity plus lots of scenic 2 lane highways. If there's a case to be made for a convertible it's days like this.
We're in South Carolina, sunny and low humidity plus lots of scenic 2 lane highways. If there's a case to be made for a convertible it's days like this.
07-18-2017, 01:05 PM
#19
Junior Member
I had a black 430i xdrive loaner last month for a week and drove it lots when my M3 was in the shop and while it doesn't compare to the M3 in terms of handling, power and preciseness. I appreciated how smooth the power delivery was. At first I had it in eco and was impress with the fuel consumption.. Also the seats made me feel lower than in the M3 and the C43. The sound was okay. I also loved the Apple Carplay integration and the latest iDrive was nice to use. One thing that BMW always gives me is that boy racer feel whenever I drive one. My sister told me the M3 is just a straight up badboy while the C43 is a badboy wearing a suit lol I thought it was hilarious.
07-18-2017, 07:51 PM
#20
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I'm more than happy with the power in the 4. I'm guessing the six would be a real treat (and save a bunch of money over an M). Still trying to figure out how BMW manages to do with a T4 what MB cannot, although I have the 7 speed. Maybe with the 8 the C300 is less spastic.
07-19-2017, 12:24 PM
#22
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I have the 9 speed in the GLC nicer combo than the 7 speed in the c class but still not as smooth as the BMW.
07-19-2017, 09:28 PM
#23
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Yeah I made a mistake in not shopping the 3 or 4 series. I made the assumption that a T4 is a T4 and wrote the car off because I didn't like the interiors as much as the Benz. What I'll miss is how solid the Bimmer feels vs the C sedan. I've heard a lot of guys rave that the German built 205 coupes and verts feel much more substantial and solid than the sedans, but I think I'd rather have the retractable hard top than a cloth top. When you button the BMW up it becomes a completely different car.
Also I'm kinda pissed at how good the base, no frills unbranded audio system is. (The 440/435 gets an upgraded HK system but no such option for the 430/428). I'd have no problems leaving even the base system stock, whereas my C has $4,000 worth of high end gear in it and I'm not sure it's that much better sounding, or better sounding at all. Frontbass is stupid.
The 4 has pancake subs under the front seats. I've worked with them before (the 221 S has the same units in the front doors) and they play loud, punchy and tight. Those subs, plus 4" 2 ways in the front doors and 4" mids in the back seat are enough to play clean and loud at 80+ mph with the top retracted (but all the windows up).
With the top up, it sounds even better. I'm trying hard to find something to give the C a higher mark on. So far I would say interior design and materials are vastly superior in the 205, although I don't care how pretty it is if it can't run over an ant in the road without creaking or rattling.
COMAND vs I Drive is largely a wash. I don't use the navi on the C (because I'm home) but no complaints about the BMW's navi. I didn't miss a single turn, and it did a nice job of avoiding traffic jams.
Power delivery, exhaust note, ride quality and handling goes to the Bimmer in a big way. I've been driving a Benz for over ten years and it pains me to admit that.
Exterior styling is a wash. I like the C in Sport trim looks, and the BMW also looks sharp and aggressive. It's a little awkward looking with the top up, but really slick with it down. Nose on the BMW is more aggressive looking, tail end on the C looks cooler to me.
Total package: At the end of the day you have to give the greatest weight to driveability. So...anyone want to do a lease swap on a fully loaded C300 Sport with a $4,000 Audison/Focal audio system and a bunch of other stupid stuff I did to it? 😉
Also I'm kinda pissed at how good the base, no frills unbranded audio system is. (The 440/435 gets an upgraded HK system but no such option for the 430/428). I'd have no problems leaving even the base system stock, whereas my C has $4,000 worth of high end gear in it and I'm not sure it's that much better sounding, or better sounding at all. Frontbass is stupid.
The 4 has pancake subs under the front seats. I've worked with them before (the 221 S has the same units in the front doors) and they play loud, punchy and tight. Those subs, plus 4" 2 ways in the front doors and 4" mids in the back seat are enough to play clean and loud at 80+ mph with the top retracted (but all the windows up).
With the top up, it sounds even better. I'm trying hard to find something to give the C a higher mark on. So far I would say interior design and materials are vastly superior in the 205, although I don't care how pretty it is if it can't run over an ant in the road without creaking or rattling.
COMAND vs I Drive is largely a wash. I don't use the navi on the C (because I'm home) but no complaints about the BMW's navi. I didn't miss a single turn, and it did a nice job of avoiding traffic jams.
Power delivery, exhaust note, ride quality and handling goes to the Bimmer in a big way. I've been driving a Benz for over ten years and it pains me to admit that.
Exterior styling is a wash. I like the C in Sport trim looks, and the BMW also looks sharp and aggressive. It's a little awkward looking with the top up, but really slick with it down. Nose on the BMW is more aggressive looking, tail end on the C looks cooler to me.
Total package: At the end of the day you have to give the greatest weight to driveability. So...anyone want to do a lease swap on a fully loaded C300 Sport with a $4,000 Audison/Focal audio system and a bunch of other stupid stuff I did to it? 😉
07-19-2017, 11:26 PM
#24
Mike, I think you'd really like the C coupe. It feels a lot more substantial than the sedan and is also a better handler. That said, your review of the 4 has persuaded me to give the Bimmer a serous look before I put down a deposit on a coupe order. I've sat in a couple 4 series, and they felt really well built and Germanic.
07-20-2017, 07:01 PM
#25
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It's the way they drive that surprised me. I really had no interest in one, there just happened to be a 430 convertible available when I stopped by the airport on a whim. (We were planning on taking my wife's three month old Q7 but I thought a 'vert would be more fun).
Knowing nothing about BMWs or their naming structure, and not bothering to look under the hood, I just presumed I was driving the TT6 cylinder, which accounted for how smooth and responsive it was vs the C. When I found out it was also a 2.0 T4 I was perplexed.
I don't even know how much horsepower or torque the thing makes, but whatever it is the car makes the most of it.
Knowing nothing about BMWs or their naming structure, and not bothering to look under the hood, I just presumed I was driving the TT6 cylinder, which accounted for how smooth and responsive it was vs the C. When I found out it was also a 2.0 T4 I was perplexed.
I don't even know how much horsepower or torque the thing makes, but whatever it is the car makes the most of it.
