Pumpkinate

Hi,

I've noticed that "catless downpipes" can mean, depending on the manufacturer, either from the turbo back including the 'downhill section' which normally houses the catalytic converter OR just the 'downhill section'. The turbo-back ones I've seen are from Weistec, Kleeman, and Supersprint.

http://weistec.com/all/cls/cls-63/20...cls63-rwd.html

http://catalog.kleemann.dk/catalog/h.../#!prettyPhoto

http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/mer...-hp-2012-.aspx

An example of the more basic ones would be this one:

http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/m...downpipes.html

When you look at the AMG turbo-back section it does look quite restrictive (see the photos on the Weistec website).

So, on to my questions:

1. Does the true turbo-back systems produce more power (with an appropriate tune) than the basic ones (also with an appropriate tune)?

2. Have I missed any other turbo-back systems?

3. Is there a difference in the cost of fitting the two types, ie are they both "engine out" jobs or are the more basic ones fittable without moving the engine?

vdubpower

interesting design of the supersprints vs the others

Pumpkinate

Yes, it is even stranger when you see this pic. On one side the 2 pipes run right up to the turbo, and on the other one pipe falls short!! Left vs Right pipes I mean. And the stock pipes look like they've been run over.

http://www.supersprint.com/public/img/2_57113.jpg

Pumpkinate

I got an email back from Weistec, they say it's possible to fit their turbo-back downpipes without removing the engine. However, it must be quite difficult to do that because they recommend removing the engine so there is more room to work.

As for the turbo-back downpipes making more power, it seems they do. This is from the Kleeman website and the difference between these two packages is the full turbo-back downpipe vs the basic downpipe:

63-K2: K1 + stainless steel downpipes (with or with out HJS sport catalysts). Up to 705 HP and +1000 Nm ( +741 lb-ft) of torque.

63-K3: K2 + stainless steel bridge pipes which remove the factory’s very restrictive pipes all the way from the turbo’s to the mid-silencer. System includes HJS race cats. Up to 760 HP and 1150 Nm ( 848 lb-ft).

Zod

well what ever u deside let us know how it goes for the 4matic cls s gl

Pumpkinate

I'll let you know, although mine is actually a RWD. They don't make the 4matic in right hand drive yet.

I received an email back from Kleemann regarding the fitting of their bridge pipes (which is the name they give to the turbo-back section).They say that for RWD cars you don't remove the engine to fit them. This leads me to the following conclusion:

The best bang for your buck for both the RWD and AWD cars is a tune only, as this gives a large increase for $1500-3500. If you want to go further than a tune only your next best bang for your buck would probably be a tune plus true turbo-back downpipes for the RWD cars and a tune plus the basic downpipes for the AWD cars (considering the additional cost of removing the engine to fit true turbo-back pipes in the AWD).

Pumpkinate

I've been comparing claimed results for tunes and tune plus downpipes. Here's what I've found so far:

Renntech tune........................................638hp 695lbft
Renntech tune plus basic downpipes........648hp 710lbft
Weistec tune...........................................608 hp 660lbft
Weistec tune plus true downpipes............645hp 724lbft
Kleemann tune.......................................690hp 704lbft
Kleemann tune plus true dowpipes..........760hp 848lbft
AMS tune.............................................. .701hp 830lbft
AMS tune plus basic downpipes (alpha 7).700+hp 830+lbft
Vtech tune.............................................. 664hp 730lbft
Vtech tune plus basic downpipes..............686hp 764lbft
OE tune.............................................. ....660hp 740lbft
Eurocharged tune...................................643hp 705lbft

OK, so you can't compare these figures directly. But if you assume they all do a similar base tune, the Kleemann package stands out for the relative increase you get with the addition of their downpipes (10% more power and 20% more torque over just a tune). Does anyone know of any real life performance data for the Kleemann K3 package, like drag times or 0-60 etc?

Goletiani

I first got Kleemann tune with catless pipes.......................................700hp

Goletiani

Then K3 package with turbo pipes and catless downpipes 770HP
NOW big turbos 850HP

vdubpower

real world results will continue to vary....everyone has seen renntech cars beat weistec, and vice versa, with all the brands...

and even a stock car is going to be faster than 99 percent of everything u see in daily driving...obviously if u are looking for fractions of seconds in races, tune away

Pumpkinate

What an epic beast with the upgraded turbos!

Pumpkinate

I reckon a tune alone will make a noticeable difference in daily driving. When I tuned my Audi RS6 it went from being a fast car to being insanely fast, it was a different car. And those changes that Goletiani got aren't subtle differences.

The other reason to tune is because the stock tune isn't very good (no offence to AMG!). The throttle response is so laggy and disconnected.

To be honest, modifying becomes an addiction... you love feeling the improvement and you ended up wanting a bit more. I took my Forester for a tune and a year later I'd gone the whole hog and was running a rally engine with large turbo, racing clutch etc.....

alexdou111

I got a tune her ein Germany at seidtperformance who does an individual for each car on the dyno - got 715hp

attached are the dyno charts before and after

I thought of doing alot hardware wise too - in all honesty - I dont even know where to drive this 715hp already and mind you i live next to a autobahn - I'v driven the beast past 300 kph but you can only do that for so long - simply for traffic - non the less travelling with the car is like crazy now - you're addicted to the throttle - hardly ever below 200 kph and never look into the rear mirror lol

Pumpkinate

Thanks for your reply.

You did really well getting 1060 Nm with a tune only! In truth, you probably don't need to go any further than that.....

mainly

i find it odd you say that about the stock tune. i recently got my 2012 cls63 tuned (wont say which one) and i notice no difference whatsoever. its no faster than beofre, does the exact same times and trap speeds in 1/4 mile as stock. ... same 60-130... everything. no seat of the pants change either.

and i actually prefer the stock tune for drivability i foudn teh tuen to be jerky on downshifts, like at times when you dont want it to be, liek when braking to slow down to a stop, all of a sudden it will downshift and the car will jerk backward.

sucks i was so looking forward to it.

Pumpkinate

That would be disappointing! You might have been unlucky there as there seem to be quite a few people who say that their M157 was better for the tune.

The frustrating thing with the stock tune is the laggyness in the response to touching the accelerator pedal. I can actually give it a heavy but brief jab without any engine response at all! That should in theory be fixed with a tune.

Did you take it up with the tuner re the unchanged performance measures? If your trap speed is unchanged it seems you can't have got a significant power increase. Any chance that your car had already had a tune (ie bought second hand)?

mainly

interesting, i thought all downpipes were all turbo back...

so whats the advantage of replacing the section upstream, right out of the turbo?

the supersprint page, looks like the same products listed over and over? whats up there?... confusing...

Pumpkinate

For most cars a downpipe is from the turbo, but with the M157 they put the turbos near the front of the motor and so there is an extra horizontal "bridging pipe" that runs alongside the motor. If you look at the photos you will see it does look quite restrictive.

Going with a true turbo-back downpipe gives more power and torque. See the Kleemann website (package K2 vs K3) or Goletiani's real world results above.

On the Supersprint website they are showing all the pieces needed for each package (true turbo-back vs basic downpipe-back vs midpipe-back).

I'd recommend a true turbo-back downpipe for your RWD car as they get more power and can apparently be fitted without removing the engine. I will definitely go for one, likely the Kleemann K3 package (my purchase is being delayed by a combination of residual warranty and a poor exchange rate....)

alexdou111

yes - kleeman says they reached 70+hp fromt heir "turbo pipe" alone

mainly

yes already on it...

alexdou111

but seriously you get over 1000nm and over 700hp just with a tune...i mean what more do you really need...? especially as a first mod - or are you planning on 1/4 mile runs etc with the car? if so then you'd better get a GT-R in my opinion :-)

mainly

have you ever ridden in a gtr?

i have... absolute piece of crap. in ever sense of the word - sound, ride quality, looks... wouldnt ever want to drive one let alone own one. and yes i had a tune for 2 weeks and then i wanted more. tune you dont get any sound increase, just power. and for me it wasnt as noticeable as others have reported.
not this night and day difference. i still dont get how people describe it as that.

alexdou111

I have - then get a porsche turbo... all i am saying is, in my opinion the CLS will NEVER be a sports car - regardless of power or sound improvements... its the wrong choice for that...its a great car and i love it sitting beng massaged with 1000nm pushing me into the seat

if you like sensation and sound get a 458 but it will be slow - if you want speed and sound and tuning the GT-R is your number 1 choice... if you want that a little less sensation but more prestige the porsche turbo would be your choice. those are in my opinion the most affordable cars for the experience mentioned... of course there are more expensive options lol

I have a group of friends here and there is no car you can think of which is not among the group, up to even koenigsegg and bugatti...you cannot make a family sedan into a sports car from the driving experience, neither vice versa, the sports car will never be comfy...porsche bridges this the best we know... and no offense but where in alberta can you drive 300 kph plus?

mainly

no my number 1 choice is what i have thanks.

i also have a 991 gt3. which does 0-60 in 3 seconds. so thats quick enough around town. and sounds better than both the gtr and the turbo.

like i said the gtr is just too freaking ugly, outdated, and uncomfortable.. did you not hear me the first time.?

alexdou111

the 991 GT3 is slow on anything but a racetrack... you're missing my point but thanks for pointing out