True turbo-back downpipes vs basic downpipes
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
True turbo-back downpipes vs basic downpipes
Hi,
I've noticed that "catless downpipes" can mean, depending on the manufacturer, either from the turbo back including the 'downhill section' which normally houses the catalytic converter OR just the 'downhill section'. The turbo-back ones I've seen are from Weistec, Kleeman, and Supersprint.
http://weistec.com/all/cls/cls-63/20...cls63-rwd.html
http://catalog.kleemann.dk/catalog/h.../#!prettyPhoto
http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/mer...-hp-2012-.aspx
An example of the more basic ones would be this one:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/m...downpipes.html
When you look at the AMG turbo-back section it does look quite restrictive (see the photos on the Weistec website).
So, on to my questions:
1. Does the true turbo-back systems produce more power (with an appropriate tune) than the basic ones (also with an appropriate tune)?
2. Have I missed any other turbo-back systems?
3. Is there a difference in the cost of fitting the two types, ie are they both "engine out" jobs or are the more basic ones fittable without moving the engine?
I've noticed that "catless downpipes" can mean, depending on the manufacturer, either from the turbo back including the 'downhill section' which normally houses the catalytic converter OR just the 'downhill section'. The turbo-back ones I've seen are from Weistec, Kleeman, and Supersprint.
http://weistec.com/all/cls/cls-63/20...cls63-rwd.html
http://catalog.kleemann.dk/catalog/h.../#!prettyPhoto
http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/mer...-hp-2012-.aspx
An example of the more basic ones would be this one:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/m...downpipes.html
When you look at the AMG turbo-back section it does look quite restrictive (see the photos on the Weistec website).
So, on to my questions:
1. Does the true turbo-back systems produce more power (with an appropriate tune) than the basic ones (also with an appropriate tune)?
2. Have I missed any other turbo-back systems?
3. Is there a difference in the cost of fitting the two types, ie are they both "engine out" jobs or are the more basic ones fittable without moving the engine?
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
Yes, it is even stranger when you see this pic. On one side the 2 pipes run right up to the turbo, and on the other one pipe falls short!! Left vs Right pipes I mean. And the stock pipes look like they've been run over.
http://www.supersprint.com/public/img/2_57113.jpg
http://www.supersprint.com/public/img/2_57113.jpg
Last edited by Pumpkinate; Jul 19, 2015 at 05:34 AM. Reason: clarification
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
I got an email back from Weistec, they say it's possible to fit their turbo-back downpipes without removing the engine. However, it must be quite difficult to do that because they recommend removing the engine so there is more room to work.
As for the turbo-back downpipes making more power, it seems they do. This is from the Kleeman website and the difference between these two packages is the full turbo-back downpipe vs the basic downpipe:
63-K2: K1 + stainless steel downpipes (with or with out HJS sport catalysts). Up to 705 HP and +1000 Nm ( +741 lb-ft) of torque.
63-K3: K2 + stainless steel bridge pipes which remove the factory’s very restrictive pipes all the way from the turbo’s to the mid-silencer. System includes HJS race cats. Up to 760 HP and 1150 Nm ( 848 lb-ft).
As for the turbo-back downpipes making more power, it seems they do. This is from the Kleeman website and the difference between these two packages is the full turbo-back downpipe vs the basic downpipe:
63-K2: K1 + stainless steel downpipes (with or with out HJS sport catalysts). Up to 705 HP and +1000 Nm ( +741 lb-ft) of torque.
63-K3: K2 + stainless steel bridge pipes which remove the factory’s very restrictive pipes all the way from the turbo’s to the mid-silencer. System includes HJS race cats. Up to 760 HP and 1150 Nm ( 848 lb-ft).
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
I'll let you know, although mine is actually a RWD. They don't make the 4matic in right hand drive yet.
I received an email back from Kleemann regarding the fitting of their bridge pipes (which is the name they give to the turbo-back section).They say that for RWD cars you don't remove the engine to fit them. This leads me to the following conclusion:
The best bang for your buck for both the RWD and AWD cars is a tune only, as this gives a large increase for $1500-3500. If you want to go further than a tune only your next best bang for your buck would probably be a tune plus true turbo-back downpipes for the RWD cars and a tune plus the basic downpipes for the AWD cars (considering the additional cost of removing the engine to fit true turbo-back pipes in the AWD).
I received an email back from Kleemann regarding the fitting of their bridge pipes (which is the name they give to the turbo-back section).They say that for RWD cars you don't remove the engine to fit them. This leads me to the following conclusion:
The best bang for your buck for both the RWD and AWD cars is a tune only, as this gives a large increase for $1500-3500. If you want to go further than a tune only your next best bang for your buck would probably be a tune plus true turbo-back downpipes for the RWD cars and a tune plus the basic downpipes for the AWD cars (considering the additional cost of removing the engine to fit true turbo-back pipes in the AWD).
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
I've been comparing claimed results for tunes and tune plus downpipes. Here's what I've found so far:
Renntech tune........................................638hp 695lbft
Renntech tune plus basic downpipes........648hp 710lbft
Weistec tune...........................................608 hp 660lbft
Weistec tune plus true downpipes............645hp 724lbft
Kleemann tune.......................................690hp 704lbft
Kleemann tune plus true dowpipes..........760hp 848lbft
AMS tune.............................................. .701hp 830lbft
AMS tune plus basic downpipes (alpha 7).700+hp 830+lbft
Vtech tune.............................................. 664hp 730lbft
Vtech tune plus basic downpipes..............686hp 764lbft
OE tune.............................................. ....660hp 740lbft
Eurocharged tune...................................643hp 705lbft
OK, so you can't compare these figures directly. But if you assume they all do a similar base tune, the Kleemann package stands out for the relative increase you get with the addition of their downpipes (10% more power and 20% more torque over just a tune). Does anyone know of any real life performance data for the Kleemann K3 package, like drag times or 0-60 etc?
Renntech tune........................................638hp 695lbft
Renntech tune plus basic downpipes........648hp 710lbft
Weistec tune...........................................608 hp 660lbft
Weistec tune plus true downpipes............645hp 724lbft
Kleemann tune.......................................690hp 704lbft
Kleemann tune plus true dowpipes..........760hp 848lbft
AMS tune.............................................. .701hp 830lbft
AMS tune plus basic downpipes (alpha 7).700+hp 830+lbft
Vtech tune.............................................. 664hp 730lbft
Vtech tune plus basic downpipes..............686hp 764lbft
OE tune.............................................. ....660hp 740lbft
Eurocharged tune...................................643hp 705lbft
OK, so you can't compare these figures directly. But if you assume they all do a similar base tune, the Kleemann package stands out for the relative increase you get with the addition of their downpipes (10% more power and 20% more torque over just a tune). Does anyone know of any real life performance data for the Kleemann K3 package, like drag times or 0-60 etc?
Last edited by Pumpkinate; Jul 26, 2015 at 07:49 AM. Reason: add lots of dots
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: OC
i drive them all, fast and hard
real world results will continue to vary....everyone has seen renntech cars beat weistec, and vice versa, with all the brands...
and even a stock car is going to be faster than 99 percent of everything u see in daily driving...obviously if u are looking for fractions of seconds in races, tune away
and even a stock car is going to be faster than 99 percent of everything u see in daily driving...obviously if u are looking for fractions of seconds in races, tune away
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
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From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
real world results will continue to vary....everyone has seen renntech cars beat weistec, and vice versa, with all the brands...
and even a stock car is going to be faster than 99 percent of everything u see in daily driving...obviously if u are looking for fractions of seconds in races, tune away
and even a stock car is going to be faster than 99 percent of everything u see in daily driving...obviously if u are looking for fractions of seconds in races, tune away
The other reason to tune is because the stock tune isn't very good (no offence to AMG!). The throttle response is so laggy and disconnected.
To be honest, modifying becomes an addiction... you love feeling the improvement and you ended up wanting a bit more. I took my Forester for a tune and a year later I'd gone the whole hog and was running a rally engine with large turbo, racing clutch etc.....
Member
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DESIGNO CLS 63 AMG 2012
I got a tune her ein Germany at seidtperformance who does an individual for each car on the dyno - got 715hp
attached are the dyno charts before and after
I thought of doing alot hardware wise too - in all honesty - I dont even know where to drive this 715hp already and mind you i live next to a autobahn - I'v driven the beast past 300 kph but you can only do that for so long - simply for traffic - non the less travelling with the car is like crazy now - you're addicted to the throttle - hardly ever below 200 kph and never look into the rear mirror lol
attached are the dyno charts before and after
I thought of doing alot hardware wise too - in all honesty - I dont even know where to drive this 715hp already and mind you i live next to a autobahn - I'v driven the beast past 300 kph but you can only do that for so long - simply for traffic - non the less travelling with the car is like crazy now - you're addicted to the throttle - hardly ever below 200 kph and never look into the rear mirror lol
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Joined: Dec 2011
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From: Edmonton alberta, canada.
Porsche 991 GT3, 2012 cls63 Kleemann K3
I reckon a tune alone will make a noticeable difference in daily driving. When I tuned my Audi RS6 it went from being a fast car to being insanely fast, it was a different car. And those changes that Goletiani got aren't subtle differences.
The other reason to tune is because the stock tune isn't very good (no offence to AMG!). The throttle response is so laggy and disconnected.
The other reason to tune is because the stock tune isn't very good (no offence to AMG!). The throttle response is so laggy and disconnected.
and i actually prefer the stock tune for drivability i foudn teh tuen to be jerky on downshifts, like at times when you dont want it to be, liek when braking to slow down to a stop, all of a sudden it will downshift and the car will jerk backward.
sucks i was so looking forward to it.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
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From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
That would be disappointing! You might have been unlucky there as there seem to be quite a few people who say that their M157 was better for the tune.
The frustrating thing with the stock tune is the laggyness in the response to touching the accelerator pedal. I can actually give it a heavy but brief jab without any engine response at all! That should in theory be fixed with a tune.
Did you take it up with the tuner re the unchanged performance measures? If your trap speed is unchanged it seems you can't have got a significant power increase. Any chance that your car had already had a tune (ie bought second hand)?
The frustrating thing with the stock tune is the laggyness in the response to touching the accelerator pedal. I can actually give it a heavy but brief jab without any engine response at all! That should in theory be fixed with a tune.
Did you take it up with the tuner re the unchanged performance measures? If your trap speed is unchanged it seems you can't have got a significant power increase. Any chance that your car had already had a tune (ie bought second hand)?
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 921
Likes: 14
From: Edmonton alberta, canada.
Porsche 991 GT3, 2012 cls63 Kleemann K3
Hi,
I've noticed that "catless downpipes" can mean, depending on the manufacturer, either from the turbo back including the 'downhill section' which normally houses the catalytic converter OR just the 'downhill section'. The turbo-back ones I've seen are from Weistec, Kleeman, and Supersprint.
http://weistec.com/all/cls/cls-63/20...cls63-rwd.html
http://catalog.kleemann.dk/catalog/h.../#!prettyPhoto
http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/mer...-hp-2012-.aspx
An example of the more basic ones would be this one:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/m...downpipes.html
When you look at the AMG turbo-back section it does look quite restrictive (see the photos on the Weistec website).
So, on to my questions:
1. Does the true turbo-back systems produce more power (with an appropriate tune) than the basic ones (also with an appropriate tune)?
2. Have I missed any other turbo-back systems?
3. Is there a difference in the cost of fitting the two types, ie are they both "engine out" jobs or are the more basic ones fittable without moving the engine?
I've noticed that "catless downpipes" can mean, depending on the manufacturer, either from the turbo back including the 'downhill section' which normally houses the catalytic converter OR just the 'downhill section'. The turbo-back ones I've seen are from Weistec, Kleeman, and Supersprint.
http://weistec.com/all/cls/cls-63/20...cls63-rwd.html
http://catalog.kleemann.dk/catalog/h.../#!prettyPhoto
http://www.supersprint.com/ww-en/mer...-hp-2012-.aspx
An example of the more basic ones would be this one:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/m...downpipes.html
When you look at the AMG turbo-back section it does look quite restrictive (see the photos on the Weistec website).
So, on to my questions:
1. Does the true turbo-back systems produce more power (with an appropriate tune) than the basic ones (also with an appropriate tune)?
2. Have I missed any other turbo-back systems?
3. Is there a difference in the cost of fitting the two types, ie are they both "engine out" jobs or are the more basic ones fittable without moving the engine?
so whats the advantage of replacing the section upstream, right out of the turbo?
the supersprint page, looks like the same products listed over and over? whats up there?... confusing...
Last edited by mainly; Aug 18, 2015 at 10:56 PM.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 181
Likes: 19
From: Australia
2014 CLS63 S
Going with a true turbo-back downpipe gives more power and torque. See the Kleemann website (package K2 vs K3) or Goletiani's real world results above.
On the Supersprint website they are showing all the pieces needed for each package (true turbo-back vs basic downpipe-back vs midpipe-back).
I'd recommend a true turbo-back downpipe for your RWD car as they get more power and can apparently be fitted without removing the engine. I will definitely go for one, likely the Kleemann K3 package (my purchase is being delayed by a combination of residual warranty and a poor exchange rate....)
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 921
Likes: 14
From: Edmonton alberta, canada.
Porsche 991 GT3, 2012 cls63 Kleemann K3
For most cars a downpipe is from the turbo, but with the M157 they put the turbos near the front of the motor and so there is an extra horizontal "bridging pipe" that runs alongside the motor. If you look at the photos you will see it does look quite restrictive.
Going with a true turbo-back downpipe gives more power and torque. See the Kleemann website (package K2 vs K3) or Goletiani's real world results above.
On the Supersprint website they are showing all the pieces needed for each package (true turbo-back vs basic downpipe-back vs midpipe-back).
I'd recommend a true turbo-back downpipe for your RWD car as they get more power and can apparently be fitted without removing the engine. I will definitely go for one, likely the Kleemann K3 package (my purchase is being delayed by a combination of residual warranty and a poor exchange rate....)
Going with a true turbo-back downpipe gives more power and torque. See the Kleemann website (package K2 vs K3) or Goletiani's real world results above.
On the Supersprint website they are showing all the pieces needed for each package (true turbo-back vs basic downpipe-back vs midpipe-back).
I'd recommend a true turbo-back downpipe for your RWD car as they get more power and can apparently be fitted without removing the engine. I will definitely go for one, likely the Kleemann K3 package (my purchase is being delayed by a combination of residual warranty and a poor exchange rate....)
Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 108
Likes: 14
DESIGNO CLS 63 AMG 2012
but seriously you get over 1000nm and over 700hp just with a tune...i mean what more do you really need...? especially as a first mod - or are you planning on 1/4 mile runs etc with the car? if so then you'd better get a GT-R in my opinion :-)
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 921
Likes: 14
From: Edmonton alberta, canada.
Porsche 991 GT3, 2012 cls63 Kleemann K3
i have... absolute piece of crap. in ever sense of the word - sound, ride quality, looks... wouldnt ever want to drive one let alone own one. and yes i had a tune for 2 weeks and then i wanted more. tune you dont get any sound increase, just power. and for me it wasnt as noticeable as others have reported.
not this night and day difference. i still dont get how people describe it as that.
Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 108
Likes: 14
DESIGNO CLS 63 AMG 2012
I have - then get a porsche turbo... all i am saying is, in my opinion the CLS will NEVER be a sports car - regardless of power or sound improvements... its the wrong choice for that...its a great car and i love it sitting beng massaged with 1000nm pushing me into the seat
if you like sensation and sound get a 458 but it will be slow - if you want speed and sound and tuning the GT-R is your number 1 choice... if you want that a little less sensation but more prestige the porsche turbo would be your choice. those are in my opinion the most affordable cars for the experience mentioned... of course there are more expensive options lol
I have a group of friends here and there is no car you can think of which is not among the group, up to even koenigsegg and bugatti...you cannot make a family sedan into a sports car from the driving experience, neither vice versa, the sports car will never be comfy...porsche bridges this the best we know... and no offense but where in alberta can you drive 300 kph plus?
if you like sensation and sound get a 458 but it will be slow - if you want speed and sound and tuning the GT-R is your number 1 choice... if you want that a little less sensation but more prestige the porsche turbo would be your choice. those are in my opinion the most affordable cars for the experience mentioned... of course there are more expensive options lol
I have a group of friends here and there is no car you can think of which is not among the group, up to even koenigsegg and bugatti...you cannot make a family sedan into a sports car from the driving experience, neither vice versa, the sports car will never be comfy...porsche bridges this the best we know... and no offense but where in alberta can you drive 300 kph plus?
Last edited by alexdou111; Aug 20, 2015 at 09:51 AM.
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 921
Likes: 14
From: Edmonton alberta, canada.
Porsche 991 GT3, 2012 cls63 Kleemann K3
I have - then get a porsche turbo... all i am saying is, in my opinion the CLS will NEVER be a sports car - regardless of power or sound improvements... its the wrong choice for that...its a great car and i love it sitting beng massaged with 1000nm pushing me into the seat
if you like sensation and sound get a 458 but it will be slow - if you want speed and sound and tuning the GT-R is your number 1 choice...
if you like sensation and sound get a 458 but it will be slow - if you want speed and sound and tuning the GT-R is your number 1 choice...
i also have a 991 gt3. which does 0-60 in 3 seconds. so thats quick enough around town. and sounds better than both the gtr and the turbo.
like i said the gtr is just too freaking ugly, outdated, and uncomfortable.. did you not hear me the first time.?
