1:35 at Willow Springs
03-21-2007, 08:23 AM
#26
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
Tires are 18's only because we needed them to run the 355 stoptechs. I prefer 17's and there are many more size choices and brands in 17's. The height of the tire is not the issue. The 275 35 18's are 25.6" in diameter while the 265 35 18's are 25.3". A little over a quarter inch is within acceptable limits and will not make a difference. It is the huge width that was the problem in the rear. The side wall construction, rounded edge and buldge on the Nitto's are significantly "wider" than other tires. Even the fronts are wider when mounted. Unless you are willing to do some creative artistic molding of the fender wells, don't even try this. I think you will be better off with the 245's on all four corners with 17's. Less unsprung weight and reduced understeer by the narrower rear tire.
the w211 e55 rear rim has an ET of 40mm this may allow rear fitment w/o probs.
03-21-2007, 12:59 PM
#27
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Thanks. i do try this into big bend at lime rock. works to differing degrees but i'm simply too inconsistent. wish i could get a few 1 hr sessions to sort myself out. the rule of thumb at lime rock is "S#it happens" ...and your session gets cut short.
smg i guess you are running 18s? and that why there were a pain to fit? too tall? i need too decide soon on my tires for this season. flim flamming between 235/35 hoosier R6 & 265/30 MPSCs on 19" or 245/40 hankook z214s on 17".
so who will be the first to run the track in dyno mode? given enough rubber and a LSD this may not such a daunting proposition.
smg i guess you are running 18s? and that why there were a pain to fit? too tall? i need too decide soon on my tires for this season. flim flamming between 235/35 hoosier R6 & 265/30 MPSCs on 19" or 245/40 hankook z214s on 17".
so who will be the first to run the track in dyno mode? given enough rubber and a LSD this may not such a daunting proposition.
You really see this car likes its electronics at that point. The bad thing is the car does not have the greatest brake feel and with no abs you will lock up the wheels kind of easily. You honestly dont save any time over just turning esp off and you risk seeing the bad side of the amg little beast =)
Try it and report back!
03-21-2007, 01:33 PM
#28
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C32 AMG
The W203 cars have what is called Electronic Brake Force Distribution. This feature is there to prevent the car from becoming light or tail happy when the driver brakes and corners at the same time. So with that system, the car behaves very oddly when you try to employ trail braking into a corner. You can do it and it does help make the car bite and "turn in" but only up to a point.
The system works by limiting the braking power given to the front and rear axle when the vehicle is turned. Whe this system takes effect, it feels like the car has terrible brake fade but in reality the computer brain is just limiting the force applied to the brakes.
The car seems to be more open to trail braking that it does having the brakes applied while the car is turning slightly. At Big Willow, tunrs 8 and 9 are a seemingly connected corner with a braking zone for 9 as the road tightens.
In this complex, the car requires that you be 100% straight on the wheel before you brake or it does not really want to slow down. You sometimes are turned just a tad bit and trying to scrub off a few mph's and the when that happens the car feels fairly unstable and "odd" just because the brakes dont engage as you the driver expect.
Coming into a corner straight on and "trail braking" into the corner does work a lot better but you can still feel the EBD system at work. Without using "trail braking" the car is sometimes very difficult to set up for a corner so yes it does help. You just need to learn how the EBD system works, when it engages and what it feels like when activated.
The system works by limiting the braking power given to the front and rear axle when the vehicle is turned. Whe this system takes effect, it feels like the car has terrible brake fade but in reality the computer brain is just limiting the force applied to the brakes.
The car seems to be more open to trail braking that it does having the brakes applied while the car is turning slightly. At Big Willow, tunrs 8 and 9 are a seemingly connected corner with a braking zone for 9 as the road tightens.
In this complex, the car requires that you be 100% straight on the wheel before you brake or it does not really want to slow down. You sometimes are turned just a tad bit and trying to scrub off a few mph's and the when that happens the car feels fairly unstable and "odd" just because the brakes dont engage as you the driver expect.
Coming into a corner straight on and "trail braking" into the corner does work a lot better but you can still feel the EBD system at work. Without using "trail braking" the car is sometimes very difficult to set up for a corner so yes it does help. You just need to learn how the EBD system works, when it engages and what it feels like when activated.
One option was to enter even more slowly and exit more quickly. But I found that I could start my turn-in on-throttle and a little too fast, and lift off the throttle after turn-in to both reduce speed and rotate the back end and get the car to the apex and pointed toward the exit. Who knows if I was faster, but it was fun!
03-21-2007, 07:32 PM
#29
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You can also use lift-throttle oversteer to get rotation. At Summit Point (Shenandoah) there is a tight left hander where I was always in terminal oversteer,missing the apex and exiting slowly and screwing up the following right hander.
One option was to enter even more slowly and exit more quickly. But I found that I could start my turn-in on-throttle and a little too fast, and lift off the throttle after turn-in to both reduce speed and rotate the back end and get the car to the apex and pointed toward the exit. Who knows if I was faster, but it was fun!
One option was to enter even more slowly and exit more quickly. But I found that I could start my turn-in on-throttle and a little too fast, and lift off the throttle after turn-in to both reduce speed and rotate the back end and get the car to the apex and pointed toward the exit. Who knows if I was faster, but it was fun!
Trouble is I became so used to doing that with rear drive front engine cars that when I drove a Lotus Elise at the track last time I ever so slightly lifted off the gas (like a hair) and it just swapped ends on me! OOPS So much for my perfect never having gone off the track record. Darn little British sports cars! =)
03-22-2007, 05:40 PM
#31
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2005 Renntech C class
For the W203...I would probably try to run 255/40ZR17 NT01 'son all 4 corners.
I drove an s2000 on that setup and the balance is insane. I think the C55 can def. benefit from having 255's in the front to help turn that heavy front end.
You can buy them cheap at www.discounttiredirect.com. Call them and order them...they offer free shipping =)
My c55 will be out to big willow this summer! Just got suspension in yesterday.
I drove an s2000 on that setup and the balance is insane. I think the C55 can def. benefit from having 255's in the front to help turn that heavy front end.
You can buy them cheap at www.discounttiredirect.com. Call them and order them...they offer free shipping =)
My c55 will be out to big willow this summer! Just got suspension in yesterday.
03-22-2007, 06:13 PM
#32
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For the W203...I would probably try to run 255/40ZR17 NT01 'son all 4 corners.
I drove an s2000 on that setup and the balance is insane. I think the C55 can def. benefit from having 255's in the front to help turn that heavy front end.
You can buy them cheap at www.discounttiredirect.com. Call them and order them...they offer free shipping =)
My c55 will be out to big willow this summer! Just got suspension in yesterday.
I drove an s2000 on that setup and the balance is insane. I think the C55 can def. benefit from having 255's in the front to help turn that heavy front end.
You can buy them cheap at www.discounttiredirect.com. Call them and order them...they offer free shipping =)
My c55 will be out to big willow this summer! Just got suspension in yesterday.
With 415 hp the larger rear tires seem to be working well. I dont think that 255 will fit on the car up front unless you use a stock strut and have smaller 17 inch wheels. With the wheels on SMG's car anything bigger than 245 will be an issue.The factory strut has a cut out or indentation where a tire passes parallel to the shock body. This allows you to have a bigger tire before you risk hitting the strut tube. On a H&R or PSS-9 the tube is NOT indented and is 5mm thicker than stock so you cant do the same tire fitment as you may expect.
As it stands its extremely close to rubbing. A 245 is equal to a 255 P-Zero Rosso or PSII in section width so a 255 will be a real stretch to fit. That would require spacers and flared fenders with custom body work.
You can dial out most the udersteer with bars, shock valving, spring rates, suspension alignment etc. 255's all around would be nice but for a variety of reasons it just wont fit the car without custom fenders. Our fenders are flared as much as possible without taking out the character lines in the fender and the lips are rolled 100% flush with the body both front and rear.
Edit: I dont think they make a 255/40/18 NT-01 anyhow.
Last edited by CynCarvin32; 03-22-2007 at 06:17 PM.
03-23-2007, 06:48 AM
#33
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
At this point understeer is not an issue with the car like it used to be back when closer to stock.
With 415 hp the larger rear tires seem to be working well. I dont think that 255 will fit on the car up front unless you use a stock strut and have smaller 17 inch wheels. With the wheels on SMG's car anything bigger than 245 will be an issue.The factory strut has a cut out or indentation where a tire passes parallel to the shock body. This allows you to have a bigger tire before you risk hitting the strut tube. On a H&R or PSS-9 the tube is NOT indented and is 5mm thicker than stock so you cant do the same tire fitment as you may expect.
As it stands its extremely close to rubbing. A 245 is equal to a 255 P-Zero Rosso or PSII in section width so a 255 will be a real stretch to fit. That would require spacers and flared fenders with custom body work.
You can dial out most the udersteer with bars, shock valving, spring rates, suspension alignment etc. 255's all around would be nice but for a variety of reasons it just wont fit the car without custom fenders. Our fenders are flared as much as possible without taking out the character lines in the fender and the lips are rolled 100% flush with the body both front and rear.
Edit: I dont think they make a 255/40/18 NT-01 anyhow.
With 415 hp the larger rear tires seem to be working well. I dont think that 255 will fit on the car up front unless you use a stock strut and have smaller 17 inch wheels. With the wheels on SMG's car anything bigger than 245 will be an issue.The factory strut has a cut out or indentation where a tire passes parallel to the shock body. This allows you to have a bigger tire before you risk hitting the strut tube. On a H&R or PSS-9 the tube is NOT indented and is 5mm thicker than stock so you cant do the same tire fitment as you may expect.
As it stands its extremely close to rubbing. A 245 is equal to a 255 P-Zero Rosso or PSII in section width so a 255 will be a real stretch to fit. That would require spacers and flared fenders with custom body work.
You can dial out most the udersteer with bars, shock valving, spring rates, suspension alignment etc. 255's all around would be nice but for a variety of reasons it just wont fit the car without custom fenders. Our fenders are flared as much as possible without taking out the character lines in the fender and the lips are rolled 100% flush with the body both front and rear.
Edit: I dont think they make a 255/40/18 NT-01 anyhow.
245/40-17 is a popular size beats me why more tires aren't being made. sure wish nitto and toyo made the nt01 and RA1 in this size......... pretty much the only real good R available in 245/40 that will fit looks to be the hankook z214. section width 9.6". I've heard favorable comments on the tire.
if you went taller say 245/45-17 & 275/40-17 then there are more options. like kuhmo v710 (avon tech ra in 275/40-17). the 275 avon's are spec'd to fit 8-9" rim. so no probs with fitment on the stock rims.
Last edited by AWDman; 03-23-2007 at 06:53 AM.
03-24-2007, 12:54 AM
#34
Maybe the new Toyo R888 will offer some different sizes. Just saw the tire and it looks great. Tread looks like it is a little deeper than the NT01, but less than the RA1. They are all basically the same compound. The RA1 will still be the choice in the rain.
Current offerings for the R888:
225 40 18
235 40 18
245 40 18
255 35 18
265 35 18
275 35 18
Current offerings for the R888:
225 40 18
235 40 18
245 40 18
255 35 18
265 35 18
275 35 18
Last edited by smgC32; 03-24-2007 at 01:09 AM.
04-09-2007, 06:42 PM
#35
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
ok got a new camera. actually a sony hd camcorder the hdr ux1. sweet.
smgc32, yeah forgot about the r888. dunno my yokes worked well last monday at lime rock. slight graining on outer edge. see pix- the r888 is remarkably like the a048- the same radiused shoulders and tread pattern. i'll run my course with the a048 they should get a bit faster as they wear. i get very even wear when i flip them every 1-2 events. i've gone through a set of fronts already...the tire you see below has 3 track days on it. by next 3 events they will be shot and will decide on something else at that point.
my rotors are cracking tho. may need a brake kit for this reason only.
some are pix of car. i updated the headlites and fogs. painted the calipers with hiheat silver- works ok. you can see the gold around the amg logo.
smgc32, yeah forgot about the r888. dunno my yokes worked well last monday at lime rock. slight graining on outer edge. see pix- the r888 is remarkably like the a048- the same radiused shoulders and tread pattern. i'll run my course with the a048 they should get a bit faster as they wear. i get very even wear when i flip them every 1-2 events. i've gone through a set of fronts already...the tire you see below has 3 track days on it. by next 3 events they will be shot and will decide on something else at that point.
my rotors are cracking tho. may need a brake kit for this reason only.
some are pix of car. i updated the headlites and fogs. painted the calipers with hiheat silver- works ok. you can see the gold around the amg logo.
Last edited by AWDman; 04-09-2007 at 06:45 PM.
04-10-2007, 03:49 PM
#37
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C32 AMG
I wish there was a solid or slotted rotor available for these brakes. Maybe we could look into a group buy on custom rotors. There are shops that will build up a two-piece rotor to your specs. We could also reduce the enormous weight.
04-10-2007, 11:18 PM
#39
Your pics just prove the point that drilled rotors are more for street looks and water evacuation than track application. Ever see a F1 or NASCAR use drilled rotors? Most use solid surface rotors. On our street cars, some slotting is preferred due to the tremendous heat we build up in the front. Replace your rotors now before they crack and fall apart at your next event.
I looked into custom rotors before and they will prove to be just as expensive as a BBK. The diameter and thickness is not standard for the disk.
Tires look like perfect wear. Either you are not driving the car to its limits or you are running 3 degrees of negative camber. What are your allignment specs?
I looked into custom rotors before and they will prove to be just as expensive as a BBK. The diameter and thickness is not standard for the disk.
Tires look like perfect wear. Either you are not driving the car to its limits or you are running 3 degrees of negative camber. What are your allignment specs?
04-11-2007, 06:50 AM
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
yes i've searched extensively for slotted rotors but no luck. the stock setup is adequate save for the cracking. i'll start looking into a custom setup as Fifth mentioned. we have brembo calipers already. talking to my tech- who is apretty phenomenal race driver - he said some degree to cracking is to be expected. i have a small leak from my headers he will re tighten today taking a look at the rotors at the same time.
Re alignment- i have crash bolts- prob -1 neg at best if i remember. i do push this car when i do track days. https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/188692-track-day-325-a.html
i've been harping on about these tires for some time- see my post from may 2006 when i first ran the 235/45-17 in the front https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/147609-took-my-c32-real-racetrack-lots-fun.html
the radiused shape of the shoulder presents a cambered contact patch. that's my theory at least!
the new toyo r888 is of similar construction. there will be a 255/35-18 made. that may fit front on a ET 32-30 mm rim.
see pix- my buddy runs a c55 stock save MPSCs. turned a 1:03:9 at lime rock. he's the ultimate track junkie. did like 16 track days last yr. did 3 already for the yr and is actually there right now attending skip barber school. he get a new 911 gt3 in july. we'll be running together at pocono north in may. he has the traqmate system i should have mine by then it will be fun to compare lines, g forces etc.
Re alignment- i have crash bolts- prob -1 neg at best if i remember. i do push this car when i do track days. https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/188692-track-day-325-a.html
i've been harping on about these tires for some time- see my post from may 2006 when i first ran the 235/45-17 in the front https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c55-amg-w203/147609-took-my-c32-real-racetrack-lots-fun.html
the radiused shape of the shoulder presents a cambered contact patch. that's my theory at least!
the new toyo r888 is of similar construction. there will be a 255/35-18 made. that may fit front on a ET 32-30 mm rim.
see pix- my buddy runs a c55 stock save MPSCs. turned a 1:03:9 at lime rock. he's the ultimate track junkie. did like 16 track days last yr. did 3 already for the yr and is actually there right now attending skip barber school. he get a new 911 gt3 in july. we'll be running together at pocono north in may. he has the traqmate system i should have mine by then it will be fun to compare lines, g forces etc.
Last edited by AWDman; 04-11-2007 at 07:50 AM.
04-11-2007, 08:51 AM
#41
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C32 AMG
Grassroots Motorsports just reviewed a few tires, and their views on the Falken 615 seem to be declining. They tested them against a handful of street tires and it seems to work well if the track is try and only until the tire gets hot. When the track is wet, or the tire hot, lap times decline.
It all supports the view that it is a great autocross tire, but not a great track tire.
It all supports the view that it is a great autocross tire, but not a great track tire.
04-11-2007, 09:38 AM
#42
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04-11-2007, 10:08 AM
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02C32AMG
Kudos on all the hard work and for sharing this valuable information with the rest of us.
04-11-2007, 01:32 PM
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C32 AMG
Custom Rotors?
I found this via Google search.
http://www.truechoice.com/Custom_Brake_Info.pdf
Oddly, I can't find reference on the web site itself.
http://www.truechoice.com/Custom_Brake_Info.pdf
Oddly, I can't find reference on the web site itself.
04-11-2007, 11:15 PM
#45
The 615's are the worst tires we have run in four years for road courses. Once they get hot, and in the C32 this happens after a few laps, they loose all grip and it is almost not worth driving anymore. Pilot Sports, GSD3's, T1S's are much better at maintaining grip over the course of 30 minute sessions. I do give credit to the tire though for the least outer edge wear, and as a street tire, they are fine, but a bit harsher than the others and the price is right.
04-12-2007, 09:05 PM
#46
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Blank
Slotted
Drilled
Drilled/Slotted
I have seen them on Ebay every now and then and this company sells them even though they are expensive. The Ebay ones are $180 pair for blank and more for slotted.
http://brakeperformance.com/site/bra...load=1&sort=3a
