Another Helpful and Informative WALDIG post
03-14-2010, 08:25 PM
#1
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Another Helpful and Informative WALDIG post
Another shameless cross post from the our brother forum....very informative and no cost mod.
http://www.crossfireforum.org/forum/crossfire-srt6/41202-another-woody-idea-cooling-your-intercooler-no-caost.html
I guess this works best if you already have a split cooling system. Links and photos on the original posting.
Another Woody Idea for cooling your intercooler, no caost - 03-11-2010 , 08:32 PM
The last title word is to be no: COST................Woody
Well the thought of Spring pops into the mind of all of us and of course I have a new cooing item to make the SRT-6 run a bit better and a bunch cooler. How can it be another cooling do hickey from Woody ( Waldig)??????????? and how much is this one going to cost - - - - - - AARGUE.
Well here is another Waldig special that can do more with less and while Iam watching TOP GEAR to boot. Oh did I mention that it will cost less!. Wait I have not paid for it yet , and yet it is advertised to cost less, less than what nothing??? Well you get value without spending money and even get money back (sorta) and all for free. Truly an impressive feat, now how do I prove it to the motley crew on this forum, follow along for the proof and details. Gawd I love coming up with this stuff, and it is not that I dont have at least 4 other hobbies that compete for my time and money. ENUFF for gosh sake on with it Waldig
OK cooling is very much an issue for the SRT and this GEM of an Idea is for the Intercooler cooling system. I will show you how to extract additional heat out of the IAT and improve the performance of the I/C system without any changes to the car, no weight gain (actually you lose weight), no bolts are moved and no mechanical parts are added or removed. Nothing to buy unless you consider getting me a Diet coke or two at Calisle this 2010 summer for the change.
A disclaimer: THis brilliant change is only applicable for the SRT cars WITH separated I/C and radiator systems. There is still time to separate your coolant systems and join the group that will follow me on the quest for lower temp inlet air to the motor.
To cool the IAT more it is necessary to EXTRACT and REJECT more heat from the I/C and H/E. TO do this you must be able to carry the heat better and more of it. Its simple chemistry really. The use of fresh water will do this but has winter and chemistry issues unless its for a lap at the track and then purge. Antifreeze DECREASES the amount of heat moved per gallon********. If fresh water is 1.0 as a reference, then typical 50-50% antifreeze can only carry 0.85 or 85 percent as much as water.
Check The Condition
You can’t judge the condition of the coolant by appearances alone. It may look like new, but if the chemistry isn’t right the coolant can be a potential time bomb just waiting to cause problems.
Most antifreeze is about 95% ethylene glycol by weight, with the remainder being corrosion inhibitors and other additives. Time and heat eventually deplete the protective additives, leaving the system vulnerable to internal corrosion. Ethylene glycol never wears out, but the additives do so that’s why the coolant needs to be changed or recycled after so many miles. Keeping the coolant up to snuff is especially important for vehicles with bimetal engines (iron block and aluminum heads) and those with aluminum radiators because aluminum corrodes more quickly than iron when the coolant chemistry turns sour.
The old rule of changing the coolant every two years or 30,000 miles is still valid for "conventional" green and yellow coolants. But the same also applies to systems filled with long-life coolant that may have been contaminated with conventional coolant. If long-life and conventional antifreeze are intermixed, the interaction between the additive packages can reduce the life of the long-life antifreeze from five years/150,000 miles down to that of ordinary antifreeze.
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to tell if a system filled with long-life antifreeze has been topped off or intermixed with ordinary antifreeze. Dex-Cool in General Motors vehicles is dyed orange to distinguish it from ordinary coolant, but it takes a lot of green or yellow coolant to produce a noticeable change in color. If in doubt, it’s always safer to err on the side of caution and go with the shorter service interval.
The best way to check the condition of antifreeze is with a chemical test strip that shows how much reserve alkalinity (which prevents corrosion) is left in the coolant. The test strip changes color when dipped in the coolant, allowing you to compare the color against a reference chart to determine the coolant’s condition. If the coolant tests bad or is close to borderline, replace or recycle it.
There are many charts and several articles to show you the backup technical data.
I have chosen a antifreeze mixture of 20% which is good for a temp of 14 degrees F, plenty for my Virginia location and storage in a garage. This means that I have less antifreeze and therefore more water having a better heat transfer characteristic. The gain is the difference between the heat capacity of the 50% AND the 20% fluid and thererfore an improvement of at least 10%. THis means that we are moving at least 10% more heat by using a better fluid without any changes, excepting the removal of some antifreeze and water replacement. This is the difference of 0.94 for 20% at 160 degrees versus 0.85 at 50% at 160 degrees.
Freezing Point of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions
Freezing points of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
Specific Heat Capacities - cp - of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
Automobile antifreeze solutions should not be used in HVAC systems because they contain silicates that may cause fouling. Silicates in automobile antifreeze are used to protect aluminum engine parts.
Note! Distilled or deionized water should be used for ethylene glycol solutions. City water may be treated with chlorine which is corrosive.
Systems for automatic makeup water should not be used since a leakage would contaminate the environment and dilute the antifreeze protection of the system.
TTTTtaaaa DAAAAA. HOw simple is that. Id suggest that you read the articles to gain additional information on the radiator and its chemical sensitivity to water materials / PH characterisitcs.
But wait there is more! The reduction of the antifreeze percentage to gain additional heat transfer capacity, YOUVE reduced the viscosity of the water mixture which thins the fluid allowing it to circulate better, faster and with less effort. WOW, this is cool literally and it does not cost you...............
THe articles referenced show that the thicker 50% antifreeze fluid is about 50% more viscous than the 20 degree solution which carrys more heat. Now the pump will move more water per minute. If you have one of my SUPERcoolers or a kin to it, you will be able to circulate even more water. THe factory cooler was only good for about 2.1 gallons per minute and my design of the supercooler was almost 4 GPM. The thinner fluid would allow the pump to increase flow by a measurable amount, be it a stock or improved I/C pump.
Dynamic Viscosity of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions
Dynamic viscosities - μ- of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
SO we have a better mixture (thinner) which carries more heat and it is lower in cost. The one thing that Id suggest is the addition of some water pump lubricant / rust inhibitor. THis would assist the survival of the aluminum components in the intercooler and heat exchanger and provide better protection. Again Taaa Daaa.
Now for the info that I have found in all the research needed to develop this concept. THere is a section of the articles that suggest that you check the hydrogen ion content or PH of the antifreeze to determine the corrosion protection level. The article also indicates that antifreeze never wears out and I have always believed that but had no data to hang it on, till now. Checking the PH will also insure that the water is not going to eat into the radiator or intercooler piping. Its as easy as getting PH strips and sticking one into the water to see what it re claads, by color. Chemistry class all over again. The PH strips are those that are used to test water for swimming pools or water supplied to your home. Easy piezy if you ask me.
Next check the pH level. This can be accomplished using a simple pool and spa test kit or pH test strips which can be obtained at any swimming pool supply dealer. When performing this test, keep in mind that any reading between 7.7 and 9.3 total pH is within manufacturers’ guidelines and is therefore acceptable.
Iam going to test the electrolysis of the cooling system by putting a volt meter to check my water for its corrosion capability. It states that you should see less than one tenth of a volt ( 0.01) when the negative lead is on the battery (-) terminal and the positive terminal inserted into the water of the radiator. I have to test this as I wonder if the metallic coating of the meter probe might react with water to great a small battery effect. Like I said, I gotta check that one for myself.
Using a multi-meter, check the system for electrolysis. Turn the dial on the meter to DC volts, touch the negative lead to the negative battery updates as they post and dip the positive lead into the coolant at the filler neck. Take care not to touch the bottom of the tank or the sides of the filler neck. Any reading over .01 volts indicates excessive voltage in the system. Check the system with the engine off and then again when starting and running the engine. Many electrolysis failures are caused by poor starter grounds, so it is important to turn the engine over at least once during this test.
More comments as they develop, and are tested and proven or not.
Please review the references to gain MUCH MORE info on the radiatior / intercooler systems.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/et...col-d_146.html
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/coo...or_service.htm
http://www.radiator.com/articles/alumrads.html
Woody ENJOY and stay COOL……..Taaa Daaaaaa
http://www.crossfireforum.org/forum/crossfire-srt6/41202-another-woody-idea-cooling-your-intercooler-no-caost.html
I guess this works best if you already have a split cooling system. Links and photos on the original posting.
Another Woody Idea for cooling your intercooler, no caost - 03-11-2010 , 08:32 PM
The last title word is to be no: COST................Woody
Well the thought of Spring pops into the mind of all of us and of course I have a new cooing item to make the SRT-6 run a bit better and a bunch cooler. How can it be another cooling do hickey from Woody ( Waldig)??????????? and how much is this one going to cost - - - - - - AARGUE.
Well here is another Waldig special that can do more with less and while Iam watching TOP GEAR to boot. Oh did I mention that it will cost less!. Wait I have not paid for it yet , and yet it is advertised to cost less, less than what nothing??? Well you get value without spending money and even get money back (sorta) and all for free. Truly an impressive feat, now how do I prove it to the motley crew on this forum, follow along for the proof and details. Gawd I love coming up with this stuff, and it is not that I dont have at least 4 other hobbies that compete for my time and money. ENUFF for gosh sake on with it Waldig
OK cooling is very much an issue for the SRT and this GEM of an Idea is for the Intercooler cooling system. I will show you how to extract additional heat out of the IAT and improve the performance of the I/C system without any changes to the car, no weight gain (actually you lose weight), no bolts are moved and no mechanical parts are added or removed. Nothing to buy unless you consider getting me a Diet coke or two at Calisle this 2010 summer for the change.
A disclaimer: THis brilliant change is only applicable for the SRT cars WITH separated I/C and radiator systems. There is still time to separate your coolant systems and join the group that will follow me on the quest for lower temp inlet air to the motor.
To cool the IAT more it is necessary to EXTRACT and REJECT more heat from the I/C and H/E. TO do this you must be able to carry the heat better and more of it. Its simple chemistry really. The use of fresh water will do this but has winter and chemistry issues unless its for a lap at the track and then purge. Antifreeze DECREASES the amount of heat moved per gallon********. If fresh water is 1.0 as a reference, then typical 50-50% antifreeze can only carry 0.85 or 85 percent as much as water.
Check The Condition
You can’t judge the condition of the coolant by appearances alone. It may look like new, but if the chemistry isn’t right the coolant can be a potential time bomb just waiting to cause problems.
Most antifreeze is about 95% ethylene glycol by weight, with the remainder being corrosion inhibitors and other additives. Time and heat eventually deplete the protective additives, leaving the system vulnerable to internal corrosion. Ethylene glycol never wears out, but the additives do so that’s why the coolant needs to be changed or recycled after so many miles. Keeping the coolant up to snuff is especially important for vehicles with bimetal engines (iron block and aluminum heads) and those with aluminum radiators because aluminum corrodes more quickly than iron when the coolant chemistry turns sour.
The old rule of changing the coolant every two years or 30,000 miles is still valid for "conventional" green and yellow coolants. But the same also applies to systems filled with long-life coolant that may have been contaminated with conventional coolant. If long-life and conventional antifreeze are intermixed, the interaction between the additive packages can reduce the life of the long-life antifreeze from five years/150,000 miles down to that of ordinary antifreeze.
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to tell if a system filled with long-life antifreeze has been topped off or intermixed with ordinary antifreeze. Dex-Cool in General Motors vehicles is dyed orange to distinguish it from ordinary coolant, but it takes a lot of green or yellow coolant to produce a noticeable change in color. If in doubt, it’s always safer to err on the side of caution and go with the shorter service interval.
The best way to check the condition of antifreeze is with a chemical test strip that shows how much reserve alkalinity (which prevents corrosion) is left in the coolant. The test strip changes color when dipped in the coolant, allowing you to compare the color against a reference chart to determine the coolant’s condition. If the coolant tests bad or is close to borderline, replace or recycle it.
There are many charts and several articles to show you the backup technical data.
I have chosen a antifreeze mixture of 20% which is good for a temp of 14 degrees F, plenty for my Virginia location and storage in a garage. This means that I have less antifreeze and therefore more water having a better heat transfer characteristic. The gain is the difference between the heat capacity of the 50% AND the 20% fluid and thererfore an improvement of at least 10%. THis means that we are moving at least 10% more heat by using a better fluid without any changes, excepting the removal of some antifreeze and water replacement. This is the difference of 0.94 for 20% at 160 degrees versus 0.85 at 50% at 160 degrees.
Freezing Point of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions
Freezing points of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
Specific Heat Capacities - cp - of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
Automobile antifreeze solutions should not be used in HVAC systems because they contain silicates that may cause fouling. Silicates in automobile antifreeze are used to protect aluminum engine parts.
Note! Distilled or deionized water should be used for ethylene glycol solutions. City water may be treated with chlorine which is corrosive.
Systems for automatic makeup water should not be used since a leakage would contaminate the environment and dilute the antifreeze protection of the system.
TTTTtaaaa DAAAAA. HOw simple is that. Id suggest that you read the articles to gain additional information on the radiator and its chemical sensitivity to water materials / PH characterisitcs.
But wait there is more! The reduction of the antifreeze percentage to gain additional heat transfer capacity, YOUVE reduced the viscosity of the water mixture which thins the fluid allowing it to circulate better, faster and with less effort. WOW, this is cool literally and it does not cost you...............
THe articles referenced show that the thicker 50% antifreeze fluid is about 50% more viscous than the 20 degree solution which carrys more heat. Now the pump will move more water per minute. If you have one of my SUPERcoolers or a kin to it, you will be able to circulate even more water. THe factory cooler was only good for about 2.1 gallons per minute and my design of the supercooler was almost 4 GPM. The thinner fluid would allow the pump to increase flow by a measurable amount, be it a stock or improved I/C pump.
Dynamic Viscosity of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions
Dynamic viscosities - μ- of ethylene glycol based water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below
SO we have a better mixture (thinner) which carries more heat and it is lower in cost. The one thing that Id suggest is the addition of some water pump lubricant / rust inhibitor. THis would assist the survival of the aluminum components in the intercooler and heat exchanger and provide better protection. Again Taaa Daaa.
Now for the info that I have found in all the research needed to develop this concept. THere is a section of the articles that suggest that you check the hydrogen ion content or PH of the antifreeze to determine the corrosion protection level. The article also indicates that antifreeze never wears out and I have always believed that but had no data to hang it on, till now. Checking the PH will also insure that the water is not going to eat into the radiator or intercooler piping. Its as easy as getting PH strips and sticking one into the water to see what it re claads, by color. Chemistry class all over again. The PH strips are those that are used to test water for swimming pools or water supplied to your home. Easy piezy if you ask me.
Next check the pH level. This can be accomplished using a simple pool and spa test kit or pH test strips which can be obtained at any swimming pool supply dealer. When performing this test, keep in mind that any reading between 7.7 and 9.3 total pH is within manufacturers’ guidelines and is therefore acceptable.
Iam going to test the electrolysis of the cooling system by putting a volt meter to check my water for its corrosion capability. It states that you should see less than one tenth of a volt ( 0.01) when the negative lead is on the battery (-) terminal and the positive terminal inserted into the water of the radiator. I have to test this as I wonder if the metallic coating of the meter probe might react with water to great a small battery effect. Like I said, I gotta check that one for myself.
Using a multi-meter, check the system for electrolysis. Turn the dial on the meter to DC volts, touch the negative lead to the negative battery updates as they post and dip the positive lead into the coolant at the filler neck. Take care not to touch the bottom of the tank or the sides of the filler neck. Any reading over .01 volts indicates excessive voltage in the system. Check the system with the engine off and then again when starting and running the engine. Many electrolysis failures are caused by poor starter grounds, so it is important to turn the engine over at least once during this test.
More comments as they develop, and are tested and proven or not.
Please review the references to gain MUCH MORE info on the radiatior / intercooler systems.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/et...col-d_146.html
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/coo...or_service.htm
http://www.radiator.com/articles/alumrads.html
Woody ENJOY and stay COOL……..Taaa Daaaaaa
Last edited by Gramma_Benz; 03-14-2010 at 08:28 PM.
03-14-2010, 08:37 PM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
yeah i do this already, since water itself has a very high heat capacity. Since i live in california, I go with a little bit less coolant and more water. More of a 60/40 water coolant mix.
I think he forgot to mention anti freeze lower the freezing point of water, so people in snow states should keep there 50/50 mix or change back to 50/50 in winter.
I think he forgot to mention anti freeze lower the freezing point of water, so people in snow states should keep there 50/50 mix or change back to 50/50 in winter.
