s4iscool

Lots of good info. Good to know your credentials Brad not many people in this "tuning" business really have a vita worth a damn.

otoupalik

Thanks. Too bad I am not one of the "smarter" users!

Thanks

Brad

Harris

See.....I knew this is coming. I havent even touched the topic of suspension and please DO NOT drag me into this. I have NO intention to get involved in this debate.

Brad: I would like to know WHAT EXACTLY have I said that makes you start attacking me. Now I am offended.....

Harris, you on the other hand have never done any suspension testing, and in fact when you claimed the RS was the best thing since sliced bread, you had never even seen or touched one!

Do we have to go through this all over again??? I DID NOT claimed the RS was the best thing since sliced bread. I said Bilstein PSS-9 was. YOU challenged me a few months ago and said I did not have any experience with PSS-9 and I'm not qualified to make that comment. Fine, I hate being challenged, so I bought all the suspension out there and test them all out, as simple as that.

I have tried the following suspensions on my C32 so far: 1) H&R springs; 2) H&R Cup Kit; 3) AMG shocks + H&R springs from the Cup Kit; 4) AMG shocks + Renntech springs; 5) H&R coilovers; 6) Bilstein PSS-9 coilovers; 7) Carlsson RS-sport coilovers; 8) Mind you, KW Varient 3 is on its way very soon.

My car currently has the Carlsson RS-sport suspension. If anyone asks me for my PERSONAL opinion now, I would say Carlsson RS-sport and PSS-9 are the two better suspensions for the C32. Maybe my thoughts would change after testing KW. All you have tested are H&R products, how can you say others are no good??? I dont care how many hours you have on the race track, those are the things that you use to impress your friends. Just tell me one FACT (since you always like to mention "FACT" all the time), HOW MANY suspensions (OTHER THAN H&R) have you ever tried on the C32????

Who has never seen or touched Carlsson RS-sport suspension or PSS-9???? I think its you, not me. I owned BOTH. Perhaps you would say "we choose not to test the PSS-9 because we already said they're no good (on other cars)". But the problem is if you dont test others, how do you know yours is the best??? I thought you are Carlsson dealer, how come you guys cant even get 1 single set of the Carlsson RS-sport and test it out??? Becase you think they are no good either? Will you ever endorse Carlsson RS-sport then? Umm...I really wonder what would Andreas think if his dealer is saying H&R is more superior than their signature suspension??? Until you have tried what I have tried, then we talk. Otherwise, we are in the different class.

Harris, you show me one person on this board who has done more suspension testing then me or my company, and I will buy you a steak dinner. I know of three - let's see if you can find them!

First, thank you for your treat. I am rich enough to buy myself a nice steak dinner. I am always the one who buy people dinner, I dont like to be treated. If you are talking about suspension testing in general, I would love to admit that you are the KING. How's that? If you are talking about suspension testing for the C32 in particular. I think you dont even come close to me.

Btw, you have made a very interesting comment:

Do I know everythign about suspension set-up - NOPE - but what I know I have learned in theory AND tested, not just relied on someone else to tell me it worked

By the same token, I do not like to listen to someone (you, in this case), to keep telling people that H&R CO is the best. Thats why I spent all these money just to do my own research.

Ask ANY of your H&R CO customers who have talked to me prior to their purchase whether I've ever bad-mouthed H&R. I will only tell them my experience and mind my own business. And if I am just minding my own business, I hope you can do the same, please dont trigger me.

Please be reminded that being an attorney doesnt mean you will always win in an argument/debate. There are good lawyers and there are lousy lawyers out there.

Mach430

Perhaps you being dragged into this has something to do with the fact that you posted out of nowhere in attempts to take a cheap shot at Brad? Should it go unanswered? You can't come into a thread, take a jab at someone, and then ask nobody to respond. That is not how points are made.

As you have posted results from all of the suspensions you have truly tried, and provided me with some knowledge indirectly, I am going to have to interject, what I believe, to be the truth. To my knowledge, you first had the H&R cup kit on your car. After being unhappy with the shock valving, you replaced the shocks with your AMG shocks. This should have blown your stock shocks in a matter of days, and thus quickly lead to many undesirable issues. From there, you later combined Renntech springs with replaced AMG shocks. Any time you replace a set of blown shocks, the car is going to handle much better. Whether Renntech springs or H&R springs are better, is a judgement call. I can only comment that the variance between changing only springs is minimal, and for the cost of any 'tuner' spring, one should consider putting it towards a coilover for better results. I'm going to take a wild guess and conclude that H&R coilovers were never installed nor tested on your car. How do I come up with this theory? You never posted anything about them. Most likely this is because you wanted to differentiate yourself by promoting the PSS9 kit as you began importing them. I never saw any posts of you putting the PSS9's on your car either. You did comment that the car would somehow handle better than an e36 m3, which is far better designed in terms of suspension geometry. It was not until customers feedback did you truly have any real-world knowledge of the PSS9's. To my knowledge, you have the Carlsson coilovers on your car, so you are welcome to your opinion there. We also believe that they are a good setup, but at twice the cost of the H&R's, there are many more reasons to prefer H&R.


What do you think Brad does when he flies out with H&R to meet with them about product development and tests at the Nurburgring? They test various products to determine how to make the best. What, did you think they just sit around all day and drink beer?

We have asked to test drive the Carlsson kit, but as we buy through authorized channels, we do not yet have one in stock. In fact, anyone with a Carlsson coilover kit in the US has been sold a black market kit.

Harris, Andreas and Bernhard love us because we speak what we believe in. I'm sure Carlsson makes a great kit, but I can tell you for a fact, that if we test it and dislike it we will not sell it. Andreas and Bernhard both support our opinions and the way we run evosport. In fact, we have been named a lead technical advisor to Carlsson North America in establishing their performance division. When was the last time they invited you to dinner? As you stated in your email to us, we are definitely in a different class. It is unfortunate that you can say one thing on MBWorld, and then completely backoff and say that you are still learning in emails to us. You can only be 100% right in one of those cases.

Rest assured that there is much more product testing behind the seens at evosport than posted daily on MBWorld. You are welcome to think that the PSS9 and other adjustable dampening systems are the best, but there are key flaws in the kits. In fact, H&R makes simliar kits dubbed the 'PCS'. You can read a direct quote from one of their owners in the H&R attachment to November's European Car where he admits that the PCS style coilover is NOT ideal and was only made to meet demand. Every adjustable street coilover suffers from insufficient shock travel on their softer settings, as a large portion of the shock body is used for a seperate valve to control compression. Simply put, adjustable dampening setups have significantly less travel, and WILL (as I have seen C32 PSS9 owners comment) bottom out on their softer settings. Also, with only 1 correct dampening level for each spring rate, at the least, all but 1 setting on any adjsutable kit is pointless--a feature, not a benefit. I wish you luck with the KW kits, great marketing but there are some flaws related to the thin piston size used. Again this is chassis wide and applies to ALL cars, including the C32 (just like the PCS and PSS9).

The only way an adjustable coilover can overcome the issues with shock travel and incorrect valving would be by utilizing a remote fluid reservoir, so that shock travel is not taken away. This is what PRO race kits use, such as Penske, Moton, JRZ, and Ohlins. Combine this with a correct spring for each dampening level on that corner of the car, and you can have the ultimate suspension! But be prepared to spend anywhere from $3,000-$5,000 for the shocks alone. Add springs and testing, and you are WAY over $15,000. At this price, it is not a perfect option for the street car...

As Brad and I have stated before, we are enthusiasts first, business men second. We often get involved in heated debates on products, but it is only because we believe 100% in what we are saying. It appears that I have now also dragged myself into this debate, but if it helps any of our 12,000 members out there, than it has been worth it. What we say can sound salesy - we know that, it seems as soon as you put the "business" hat on, everyone forgets that we are enthusiasts and assumes the same slimy techniques utilized by other shops. It is because we are pationate and beleive 100% in what we say. Most shops sell on hype, we sell on experience and testing.

Thanks,

Ben

Harris

Ben: when I made the comment that smarter members should know who has the slight edge in the debate, did I say who has the slight edge? Why do you think I am taking a cheap shot at Brad? This was NEVER my intention, PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT MY POST AGAIN, I said "let it cool down....." Huh??? I took a jab at someone??????? Did I????? Who????????

Seems like you know my car more than me. The car is mine, I have owned it since Sept 7, 2001 and I am driving it everyday. I dont need you to remind me what I have installed. I can tell you that NONE of your assumption is true. I know what I had on my car more than anyone else. My AMG shocks have never been replaced. They are still sitting in my office in perfect shape. Do you want me to send them down to you and let you test it out??? The reason why I didnt mention a word that I have installed H&R coilovers is I dont want to ruin your business and my relationship with Evosport. We are selling different products and I just want to let it stayed that way. I bought the PSS-9 and Carlsson RS-sport at the same time but the PSS-9 arrived weeks ahead. Thats why I can test them back to back. Do I have to start writing journal on MBWorld just to keep you posted what I have on my car???

Even more ridiculous is....I need customers feedback to know what's PSS-9 is about??? Who would call up a company, talk to the owner who says PSS-9 is good, then buy a set from him, and then call back and confirm that the PSS-9 is as good as he claimed so that the owner can have "real-knowledge of the kit"????? Does that make sense to you? Would you spend $2000 on a set of suspension and become a guinea pig without knowing what the suspension can deliver??? Wow....your imagination is really beyond my imagination. Great job!!!

I paid TOP DOLLARS FULL RETAIL PRICE for my PSS-9 and Carlsson RS-sport. For what??? Only to do my own research. I am able to obtain something that no one else can get. Is that a problem?

People own their cars for 2-3 years, and if you're to tell them that they need to wait 3, 4, 5 months for some parts, they would just walk away. If I want something, I want it now. Not 6 months later. I already feel really bad that I cannot keep my promise to a few customers whom I cannot deliver their parts within a said time frame.

I am not backing off in any way or in any fashion. Things that I know, I will say it up front. Things that I do not know, I will admit it too. It is never my style to say one thing but meant the other. When I said I still have a lot to learn, I really mean it. But there are things that I must have more knowledge! If you want to think I am always the inferior one than anybody at Evosport, sure, I am okay with that. Afterall, I am just the new kid on the block. I dont care.

H&R, PSS-9 or Carlsson RS-sport....I have already stopped commenting on which is better because I think its pointless. Different people have different needs. I have said many many times, I dont care how many sets of PSS-9 I sell. All I can do is to provide my test results and knowledge to my customers, I never interfere with their decisions. But please dont make comments like....."(as I have seen C32 PSS9 owners comment) bottom out on their softer settings...." Ben, you've seen nothing, you dont even know what W203 PSS-9 looks like. There are less than FIVE C32s in the entire North America with PSS-9. I believed I know them all.

Ben, like I mentioned on my e-mails to you: "for parts that I dont carry, I will ONLY come to you and no one else". I already try to carry different product lines than you because I know there is no competition here. I always want to maintain a sound relationship with Evo. I showed my good faith every single day. But I feel very disappointed that you guys are thinking completely in an opposite way. I DO NOT want to become anyone's enemy. Is it that hard to achieve??? Only because people support different products that we have to turn into such an ugly scene.

Please, let this die. I will not engage into any suspension debate from now on. If you want to say H&R CO is the best, sure, let it be the best. Then I am selling the second best or the third best, can everybody have a good night sleep now?

otoupalik

ENOUGH - We all need to just take a deep breath and remember this is supposed to be fun and collegial, not a slug-fest. I recommend we all take the holiday to relax and get some perspective.

This thread has been hi-jacked enough, it was a thread from carl asking about specific things and it has morphed. Let's let it get back on topic - NOW. That means, CynCarvin, Harris, Ben and myself are not allowed to post off topic or will be put on probation - PERIOD.

Thanks

Brad

carl

i really feel so guilty of writing this post...
at first i shouldn't even ask you the times because i didn't contribute anything to the testing while you guys worked hard for it.

Harris: i'm sorry and i have no idea why you were caught in here, i saw your intention was on Brad's side already.

and

Brad: i apolozie for asking you the first question...people are like challenging you guys instead of asking you kindly for the valuable professional knowledges/experience. this is totally off topic and i have no idea why it ends up like that... don't tell me American likes to create trobles. i was gonna delete this post when i said "some people just speak without thinking", coz i don't want to pull you into troubles and i know someone will continues to argue something with you. but too bad it happen just way too fast before i can delete this post.

the use of forum is not suppose to go like this and i'm sorry to people who got upset from this post. we all like our benz and we should pay respect to people who are spending lots of their time and money into tuning our cars, coz at the end, we are the one who got benefits from these people.

so next time you post, think before you post!
just let this die!

carl

one more thing...

both evosport and harris are doing the fantastic job here on the forum. please continue the good work and contribute as much as you guys can. do not let this flame to stop you guys ...

Kar don

agreed, in my search for new tires both evosport and harris were VERY helpful and informative! Keep up the good work guys, we all share the same passion

smgC32

I have been a frequent reader of MBWorld over the past year and appreciate the sharing of information that takes place for the betterment of the marque. This is one of the few sites that address the needs of owners looking for something extra out of their car.

This thread has provided interesting discussion regarding differences in spring and shock set ups for a variety of road and track conditions, and it relates to the original question of track time differences between the C32 and M3. There is no one “perfect” set up for every condition, but it is safe to say that the H&R coil over kit was manufactured for generic street application. The only difference between this system and a more traditional set up of sport shocks and springs is that the H&R is an adjustable ride height system. The factory front suspension is a coil over design by definition, but it is non-adjustable in ride height. Depending on the valving and spring values, H&R could have made the exact set up in a traditional non-adjustable design as a replacement for the stock units (they do make the Cup Kit which may differ in values). The H&R kit should also provide a shorter foamy bump stop/supplemental spring with its non-adjustable kit to compensate for the lowered ride height and offer additional travel. If this kit is anything like the BMW kits, it is adequate for normal street driving but lacks the stiffness required in its shock and spring design when the car is driven hard in the corners in any environment.

We all agree that you can make a car too stiff, but a percentage of increase in this system’s stiffness rating would provide beneficial in any situation you would encounter where handling is of primary concern, while still eliciting an acceptable street ride. Any of the manufacturers that have been discussed within this thread could produce a suspension solution that would be very similar in performance. It is all about shock valving and spring rates, with only subtle differences in design and technology that separate them from one another. And each manufacturer has their own idea as to what is the best compromise between comfort and handling. The roads in Germany are much different than those in the United States. And Chicago roads are much different than those in Los Angeles. Brad has agreed that the H&R street kit will not perform as well as others on the track, and from the contents of this thread, the H&R Evo/RS kit should be ready around February of 2004. That is good news for those looking for something “more” out of their height adjustable suspension set up. The objection contained herewith has been calling the H&R kit the “best” suspension available for the car. If we strictly address street application and comfort without aggressive driving in the corners, then the H&R kit is “one of the best” although subjective in nature in its evaluation. And as for Ben’s comments about decreased shaft travel and bottoming out, the bump stops are shorter in the Bilsteins and the valving and spring rates higher to accommodate the decreased travel, thus preventing bottoming out any more than what one would experience in the H&R kit. A more fair comparison would be between the H&R kit and the non-valving adjustable Bilstein PSS system.

What concerns me within this thread that I have never seen before since I began reading this forum is the apparent and inappropriate intervention that has taken place here by the administrator who is an equal forum member and poster. In our democratic society, and I assume this democratic forum, members have the right to state their opinions and challenge statements made from other members. Personal attacks have not been made herewith as have occurred within other threads tagged for civility. Very specific statements have been presented by both sides of the argument and each side has asked for clarification in order to refute or confirm its accuracy. There is nothing wrong with challenging a statement made by a member, and a thread should not be shut down or a member put on probation for doing such. This is one of the problems and risks with having an administrator(s) and/or moderators also being the owners/sponsors, as well as a posting members of any forum.

I felt there is no reason to move this topic to a new thread titled Suspension Comparisons since a rebuttal to previous posts made is not out of line if its intent is to clarify a previous statement made. One thing I would like clarification on is the following:

Brad, you had stated herein that you have over 10,000 hours of total track hours, not including additional set up time in other cars. I find this hard to believe and here is my mathematical analysis to support my basis for objection.

Let’s assume for this equation that you are 32 years old (probable based on your web sites information). If you were licensed to drive at 16, then you have been driving for 16 years.

If we divide 16 years into 10,000 hours, we get an average annual track driving time of 625 hours per year, assuming that you have been racing or attending track events for this entire length of time. If you were to drive 8 hours per day, than you would have had an average total of 78 driving days per year (625 divided by 8). If you were to drive 4 hours per day, then you would have had an average total of 156 days per year. And if you were to drive the typical 2 hours per day, then you would have had an average total of 312 days per year.

Lets analyze your average track driving time with the data provided within the thread. Your previous three years yielded an average of 69 track days as of November of this year (2003 = 55, 2002 = 85, and 2001 = 67. A total of 207 days divided by 3 years). If you were to race a few more weekends in December, you average total would be 70 track days over the past three years which is probably a generous average as you would most likely not had the time to drive this much during your high school, college and law school days, but I will give this number to you for arguments sake.

Let us first convert 70 days into hours. If an 8-hour day is used, then we have a total of 560 track hours per year (8x70). If a 4 hours day is used, then we have a total of 280 track hours per year. And if a 2-hour day is used, then we have a total of 140 track hours per year. (Most race weekends will consist of two practice sessions with one race that usually does not exceed two hours per day).

Now we can calculate the math. 560 hours per year into 10,000 total hours = 17.85 years. 280 hours per year into 10,000 total hours = 35.71 years. 140 hours per year into 10,000 total hours = 71.42 years.

What is interesting to see here in the analysis is that even if you were to have driven 8 hours per day, it would be impossible for you to have driven 10,000 track miles unless you started at age 14 (assuming that your are 32). Unless you have a different explanation, or know of a different way to calculate your 10,000 track hours in your driving career, you have made a significant misrepresentation of your track experience that should not go unnoted. If I have made an error in my calculation, please accept my apologies.

Now that you are the West Coast’s leading Carlsson dealer and hired tuning evaluator, we are all very curious as to your critique of the RS suspension. If you like it and decide to represent this product in your line up, what will be your selling price to forum members? The RS seems to be the designer label suspension at designer prices. Prada will never be cheap…nor Carlsson.

jcanabal

JustinTRW

It had not occured to me how much track time Brad purports to have completed really is, when put into perspective. Interesting calculation!

otoupalik

LOL - OK, I actually spent a few minutes and calculated the actual time and it is about 3790 as closely as my log tells me. Could be as much as 4500 as I do not log everything. I am sorry for exaggerating that! LOL.