Norm C32

So one is on the track for 2 hours? Give me 2-3 20 minutes sessions and I am ready to get some good times.

NASCAR? That pretty much sums things up!

Norm
Bordeau/Merlot

smgC32

Norm, do me a favor and drive your C32 at 10/10ths at a heavy braking track for 60 minutes non stop, rest 30 minutes, then repeat only once, and then report back. It will fail, guarenteed. BTW, do you also think that Boris Said is a pus s y for driving a NASCAR? I don't complain about getting paid to drive a race car all weekend long.

Norm C32

I was at Mid-Ohio for almost 30 minutes and the tires went first. Brakes were fine. In a real race or a timed event conserving tires is the key to winning, not the brakes. Get your priorities straight!

Norm

CynCarvin32

I have a funny feeling the brakes will go way before the tires. The tires may last only one day at the track but the brakes will last only 1-2 sessions of real track driving. To clarify here, are you saying that the tires become ineffective due to high temperatures or that they wear out and become a hazard? I assume you are speaking of the tires turning "greasy" for tires normally last a day or two tread wise. You can brake early and lightly to safe the brakes but that is not the fastest way around the track. You will not fall behind by much by saving the brakes but a frequently tracked car could truly benefit from a brake upgrade. If SMG and I managed to make the brakes fade on the street, something tells me a track event could easily do them in. A good point is that the venue where you run the car has a great deal to do with this debate. Streets of Willow is extremely hard on brakes when run CCW. CW seems to be far less stressful as the front straight and turn #2 braking zone are both up hill and not downhill.

Now as for the back handed NASCAR comment. Lets look at time Jeff Gordon ran Montoya's F1 car. Last I checked he jumped in and clicked of laps only slightly off those of master Montoya. With only 5 laps to get warmed up and aclamated to the car, Gordon managed to be only few seconds of the qualifying time for Montoya. So yes clearly NASCAR drivers are all ******* and can only go left... left... left. If you consider Bernie Ecclestone offering Gordon assistance in getting a ride in F1 (to be the real American driver) an insult I guess NASCAR drivers are all blubbery hicks.

Research shows that the people who track their C32 frequently and who push the car to the limit regularly purchase a brake upgrade for the stock system fades, wears extremely quickly (warps, cracks, and shreds rotors in no time flat), and is less than confidence inspiring when it feels mushy and weak.

I have yet to understand why people in Mbworld message forums slam each other. I mean if 2 people who drive a C32 at track events regularly cannot get along without being snippy and snide what is the rest of the board to do?

Track days are not about clicking off great times as soon as possible. I see the fun in driving as much as possible. We don’t go to chase the stopwatch around the track but it sure does show where you stack up in the bigger picture. I wont disagree that one needs only 2-3 sessions to learn a track and click off quick laps but I will say that I would not go home after getting a few nice laps. Why go home before lunch? The real fun comes when everyone leaves after lunch and you have the track all to yourself for an afternoon of hot lapping.

otoupalik

Great comments CynCarvin. I totally agree with them all.

First, the C32 brakes are acceptable for 95% of the owners. People who drive these cars like a Mercedes. However, for those that are from M3's (maybe 3-4%) and others who simply want to go fast, drive canyons, autocross or track the C32, the brakes are horribly inadequate. Even on a fast street car (especially C32 with some mods) the brakes are just not large enough nor do they give enough fade resistance or braking torque.

Second, some of the NASCAR guys are great drivers.

Thanks

Brad

Norm C32

I hope Starfest moves west in the near future. But until it does your more than welcome to run with us in the east as Kleeman and RennTech has in the past.

Cyn, research? Come to a MBCA event that last for 3 days like we just had. No C32 complained or had problems. Pilot Cups turn greasey, ever try a set of DOT race rubber? F1 cars are pretty electronically controlled, including up shifts. Braking and handling are left to the driver. Got to laugh when the NASCAR drivers got out of their cars at Infineon they were whipped and soaked in sweat. Little different than oval racing.

smgC32

Thanks Brad for your clarification.

Some PS Cup tire drivers are complaining of them going away after a short time. We have heard this on the West Coast as well. They may not be suited for the heavy weight of the C32. Norm, you never complained of your Victoracers getting greasy? What has been the ambient and surface temperatures at the tracks you have run when you experience this? What are the tire temps across the tread before cool down? Had you heat cycled the tires properly before putting them into track duty? Lack of heat cycling will cause the condition you are mentioning. Ever try the Toyo RA-1? I have run them for years on my other car with excellent results and longevity.

CynCarvin32

I don’t want to sit back and say this but most MB owners do not push their car to the limit at track events. If the brakes are not bronze you don’t drive hard enough. I know your brakes are no longer silver so clearly you do push your car (and I bet many others C32 owners do push their cars as well…I am talking about the normal track day participant here). To say that the brakes are not weak seems out of sync with everything I have seen or felt in a c32. AMG has an 8 pot front kit on its F1 Medical Car and it to is bronze in color (on the one that has a silver caliper... the others have black calipers). The C55 medical car has the same six pot brake caliper up front and the same 4 pot rear brake from the SLK55. That car does nothing but hot laps around each F1 track and is used for events on the Nordschleife. I had a c32 for a while as you may recall and its brakes were not up to par. When a C230k has the same exact front brake as a C32/C55 something is very wrong. That car has half the power and weighs about 500-600 lbs less than a c32. The brakes on the C230k are great with its size but the C32 needs more ability to shed heat (the speed a c32 gains on a straight is slightly more than a c230k). The pads become "baked" and no longer have any feel or bite.

I have seen C32's and E55's at track events and I have yet to see a c32 driver really chase down the car in the front (well any car other than SMG's). I have not been to a MBCA meet but if it is anything like a BMW Club event, I doubt that many of the people really push the car. I am not saying you do not but simply saying that MBCA/ BMWCA events might not be the ultimate example. I know you are extremely quick in your car and I have no doubt that you are extremely skilled but most drivers I have spoken with (who press hard) feel the brakes start to go away after 4-5 laps. I saw a great sig from an M3 driver over at the E46 M3 forums and it sums up this point very well -- "I will never be able to afford enough Zymol to be competitive at a BMWCCA Driving Event..." Funny thing is that of the track day I have attended, the only people I ever saw cleaning the car mid day were M3 drivers with huge BLING BLING HRE wheels and Brembo kits that were not being put to use.

Jon Winter is a well known board user who has the largest Brake Kit for any C32 I have seen. He destroyed 6 sets of pads and 3 sets of rotors in 23k miles and at that point he chose to go find some brakes that could take the stress of track driving.

My research was done by using my stock car as a basis for seeing what the brake were capable of doing stock. Street driving was enough to make them fade so I presume that track driving would kill them (especially our local 1.8 mile track brake intense track). I spoke with Jon and 2 other owners who purchased brake upgrades and both agreed that the stock system was not enough. If there were racing grade 2 piece rotor that would fit into the C32 Caliper , it would be a huge help (with racing pads -- R4-E maybe) but no racing rotor is narrow enough to fit the MB part. Brembo North America agreed that the C32 caliper is good enough for track (enough clamping force – very similar to the Lotus Caliper in deign and piston size) use but that the MB rotors and pads can't take the heat the driving creates. Using racing pads will help with this but the rotors will begin to fail and will quickly overheat. Could cooling ducts help? Could Brembo make rotors for you? Yes and Yes. But in the end the price difference between getting rotors cooling ducts pads and lines (OEM caliper) was 1k less than a full front and rear StopTech kit. At that point get the part that can take the stress caused by track use and enjoy rotors that last 40k plus miles.

SMG's Brakes are perfect for track driving but even those brakes do get warm after an hour of track time. His brakes are stronger than we both expect them to be. Most days we find our selves braking to early and to softly for we expect the brakes to go away… but they dont. Then again his C32 has more stopping power than a 996 Twin Turbo (and more fade resistance as well). Trouble is, the feel in the 996 brake system “feels” better and easier to modulate. I am not starting a 996 TT vs. C32 debate just saying that the StopTech brakes are extremely powerful!

And again more jokes about NASCAR drivers. While the ecu may shift the car, the driver still needs to brake turn and balance the car. Clearly the average NASCAR driver is not on the same level as an F1 driver but you cant throw out any hope of having a skilled NASCAR driver simply because most are not up to par. To say that a self redline shifting tranny means a ****** can drive a F1 car quickly is fairly amusing. So why the heck don’t we get me over in an F1 car representing the USA? Why? Because I can’t drive that well! Last time I saw MS and DC/Kimi get out of a car after a race they were dripping wet too. Same happens at an oval race so its not unique to a road course. Yes NASCAR drivers are not fit like F1 drivers but something tells me the good NASCAR guys still have extreme talent. Mr. Borris is one of the best road racers around and he does drive NASCAR’s as well as just about everything else out there. Should we include Marcus Gronholm and Sebastien Lobe in the debate as well? That is where I see the real tallent! WRC!

CynCarvin32

What do we have to do to get MBCA to have a driven event out here on the west coast? I would love to attend one but its a long drive to go back east for a track day (or 3 days as it may be) only to turn around and drive back.

I look at the Southern Californa chapter of the club and they seem to do Wine and Cheese tastings or picnics but never a track day. Personally I see car clubs driving not eating cheese. Clearly all the fun MB owners were back east or in the mid west!

Are you involved in the MBCA? How do we get them to expand on this coast? Any plans in the works we should know about?

Maybe I should move!

Norm C32

Temps were around 80F and overcast. I never drove for over 20 minute session on the same track with the Kumhos. You should buy a set as they are cheaper than most ultra performance tires. Toyo 4 were used the first day on the track. They were alright but went away quickly. Wear with camber bolts was nice and even.

I can see how you guys get into flame wars. I never mentioned anything but specific about NASCAR and you three go into a debate definding them. The whole event is a marketing scheme.

www.mbca.org

Next national convention is in two years and the slot is still open. The president resides in your state.

Norm
Bordeau/Merlot

bmw instructor

I have never had any problems with stock brakes on the track on the 2002 C32.

1. Running Porterfield racing pads and racing fluid.