boxed

man, if he did that...sure i'll believe him.

the video shows that he wasn't stock when he ran the 12.6, but knowing Lee, why would he lie? Since he's been featured in magazines by his amazing sick 12 sec times in stock cars...i surely don't doubt him. But you on the other hand...can just continue saying this extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence blah blah balhb blah...

i'm off to bed. later

oh ya i'm just skimming your posts, cuz all the words gives me headaches

Improviz

So if you'd be skeptical of a claim like this, why not be skeptical of this stock 1/4 mile time?

You'd have to ask him that, but the FACT remains that when asked about his mods in that thread, he ONLY mentioned pulleys, when anyone could see that the front seat was missing!

And you on the other hand can go on and place complete, total trust in people on the Internet who make dubious claims which even the videos do not support.

Oh, and btw, I've got some land in Florida I'd like to sell you. It will appreciate 500% in the next five years, and you can trust me: I've been written up in magazines, and you have this Internet post as proof too!!

Of both of these claims I have no doubt.

M&M

Improviz, as much as I enjoy arguing with you, I'm just getting tired of going round & orund in circles.

1stly, you have no faith in other human beings. I'm the other way around. I tend to trust people until they do something bad. Sure I've been burnt a few times, but I can't change the way I am.

You on the other hand think everyone's a con artist & out there t lie to you. Lee DID run 12.7 & many 12.8's stock. Sure he ran low 13's as well stock. He posted those as well. Whenever the conditions were ideal he raced to the track to try & beat his records.

You keep harping about the seat being removed. Yeah they were on some runs. He ran 12.6's & 12.7's with the seat out. BUT, he also ran 12.7 & many 12.8's with the seats on.

But hey, I actually don't care anymore. You can harp on about the seat being removed or drag radial you think he had or whatever. The time is still impressive nonetheless.

And with regards my times, I did run 13.7 @ altitude BONE STOCK. I know what Lee went through because even some of my M3 buddies didn't believe my car was stock. But I know the truth & when I ru there again you will know. I don't know if my time will improve more than a few tenths but my trap is well up now as you will see shortyl.

The fact that I ran 14.2 & 13.7 with a car in the same state of tune isn't any proof at all like yyou think. Do you know how much of a difference things like these make:

- tyres
- temperature
- surface
- ambient conditions
- tyre pressures
- Cooling of engine
- state if clutch
- commitment of driver

Well on my 14.2 runs ALL of the above were different. 1stly it was during the day in 97 deg heat with Michelin tyres pumped to full pressures & no engine cooling. My 13.7 runs were done at night in 55 deg heat with Toyo tyres running low pressures & lots of ice on the intake manifold.

Don't believe me if you don't want to. I have the slips & videos so I don't care anymore.

Chappy

Can you please scan some of the magazine articles?

M-phibian

This is absolutely ridiculous. First off, Improviz comes across as a complete tool. A true embarrasment for MB owners.

That having been said;

Lee indeed ran a 12.72@ 107.7 *bone stock*. That means ZERO mods..on stock tires and wheels. He posted his time slips...but did not even own a video camera at that time and didn't get one until almost a year later. Boxed unintentially misrepresented the videos he posted.

Lee also ran a 12.8 *bone stock* in the August, 2002 issue of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords.

He also took a buddy's M3 and ran a 12.8 in it as well. The first time he tried. That is on video as well.

The other runs that you've seen on video have all been with simple bolt-on modifications. He now has 4.10 gears, AFE intake, Evosport underdrive pulleys, Eurobahn software, SSR wheels and removed the seats. That's it. And with all of that he ran a 12.48 @ 111 mph. His 60' times are 1.75. Anyone that understands drag racing knows that his 60' times are incredible for a RWD car on street tires. And yes..they are on the stock street tires. He has tried drag radials...but he got far too much wheelhop with them so he went back to street tires. He actually launched better with the street tires than with the drag radials on the M3. The fact is, Lee launches better on street tires than most people can tie their shoes.

As a side note, Lee also had the fastest times in an all-motor Mustang back in 1988. Fastest in the country. So being the fastest is something he's used to. He's also used to haters like Improviz doubting him.

Lee of the most modest, honest guys around. And it pisses me off to see haters like Improviz running their ignorant trap like this.

Lee's posted timeslips, videos, was in a magazine, and has people witness his runs. I'm really not sure what else he can possibly do.

Improviz

And I don't care who this guy is, nor do I need a lecture from some idiotic BMW owner telling me that I reflect badly on MB owners: I'm not the one trolling here: you are.

Now then, let's recap what "evidence" we've seen so far:

1) a post on Bimmerforums.com, which was provided by boxed, wherein ***BMW OWNERS*** were skeptical of this claim;

2) videos of an M3 running fast 1/4 mile runs. The M3 shown in the videos was *clearly* not stock:
- it had no front passenger seat, meaning it's a safe bet that it had no rear seat;
- it clearly had non-stock wheels

3) in the post where the video was shown, we saw the man who claimed the run stating that his car's only mod was pulleys, when 1) and 2) above could be plainly seen in the video.

And despite this, you place your absolute trust in this claim.

As to the Mustang magazine article: I have personally read this article, and it was NOT AN INSTRUMENTED ROAD TEST, but consisted of a guy relaying a story about this fellow running a fast 1/4 mile. Wow. "My friend Brad saw this guy run a 12.8 in a stock Accord!". The fact that an unsubstantiated claim is published in a cheap Mustang mag carries no more weight with me than an unsubstantiated claim on the web.

I have also viewed the video of the 12 second 1/4 mile in the other "stock" M3, the yellow one, and it, too, was modded:
- look at the rear wheels. do they match the front? No. are they stock? no. So, was the guy making a fashion statement, or did he have drag radials on there? I vote the latter, and in any case, THE CAR WAS NOT STOCK.
- look at the exhaust. stock pipes? no.

Two cars, one silver, one yellow, both modded.

And so the guy has a good background as a driver? Great. Does that mean that he can violate the laws of physics? I think not.

If Carl Lewis posted on the Internet that he had run an eight second 100m dash, I wouldn't believe it either. And that fact that many BMW owners are so passionate about their brand that they'd seemingly believe the cars could drive on water doesn't change the FACT that NO VIDEO EVIDENCE HAS YET BEEN PRESENTED SHOWING AN UNMODIFIED M3 RUNNING A !2.7 SECOND 1/4 MILE!!


So, you BMW trolls can come in here and post until your hearts content, but you have not produced any verifiable evidence to back up your claim.

As to you, M&M: I have researched you a bit more. You have also been trolling for over three years at the Audi Club of South Africa's forum, where you were threatened with being banned on multiple occasions for doing exactly what you do here, at Audiworld (for over three years), and everywhere else: come in and harrass people with relentless trolling about BMWs.

Three years.

Over three years.

Spent doing nothing but harassing people who dare to drive other brands than your beloved BMW.

I think the above speaks to your biases, and I have shown in other posts your tendency to lie and cherry pick data in your magazine racing crusade, and IMO you are one deeply, deeply strange person. If the moderators choose to allow you to continue to pollute these forums when moderators of even BMW forums have wisely stepped in and shut you down, so be it, but you are here only to stir up trouble and lie, and have no intention of engaging in honest debate.

So people can view you, your posting history, your history of deceptive claims, and decide for themselves whether or not you are credible.

M-phibian

Improviz...again, you are proving yourself to be a complete tool and moron. You're a flat and embarrassing joke. Deal with it.

Now, on to your ridiculous logic:

Yes...BMW owners were originally skeptical of the claim. That's normal. Anytime you realize that someone can drive that much better than you, you get skeptical (i.e., Improviz). Same thing with the Mustang guys back in the day. They were skeptical as well. No one wanted to believe this guy was that much better than they were. Still doesn't change the fact that it happened. Lee posted vids, timeslips and had witnesses. These witnesses have even posted pictures of stock OEM tires! He's done everything anyone has asked to provide proof. The majority have finally realized he is telling the truth. The minority (like yourself) choose not to believe it because they take it personally that they can't drive that well.

Regarding the videos....I WILL SAY IT AGAIN...THE VIDEOS ARE NOT OF THE M3 WHEN IT WAS STOCK! Why can't you understand this?

No one claimed the vids were stock other than Boxed. He made a mistake and has since admitted his mistake. The vids were of Lee running his car with the mods I already mentioned. PAY ATTENTION!

When he was stock...he NEVER had a video made. He didn't have a video camera for one, and second; he didn't realize he needed to have a video made since he had timeslips. Later on, as people kept questioning his times...he finally got a video camera but already had new mods installed. Thus his times are even faster than they were when he was stock. Are you comprehending this yet?

IRT his mods where he said he only had pulleys, he was saying that his only bolt-on mods that made any power were pulleys (which make hardly any power at all). He has mentioned many other times in other posts that he had removed weight. He wasn't leaving anything out.

If you had actually read the article in MM&FF magazine (not the internet article), you would know that they (MM&FF) raced it against a Cobra at a track. They timed it like they do all the cars they performance test. It was written in the sidebar of the magazine, and it ran a 12.8 bone stock. If you still have the article...*PLEASE* scan and post it so everyone here can see how full of **** you really are. If I had it I would post it right now to make you look even worse than you do already. It was an actual timed run against a Cobra. It is NOT hearsay. Scan and post it!

As far as the Yellow M3...those WERE NOT drag radials! They were older street tires that the guy brought with him so he wouldn't ruin his new ones.

As far as the lack of video evidence showing a unmodified M3 running a 12.7 stock...well there isn't any video evidence of the civil war either. I suppose you're going to say that didn't happen as well?

The timeslip isn't good enough for you. The fact that he's shown vids of him running over 2/10's faster than his best stock time with only a few bolt-ons isn't either. You would assume that someone able to afford a new MB would be intelligent enough to extrapolate from that alone.

You're literally the biggest tool I've ever seen on a car forum.

You're rude....loud....condescending....close-minded..and ignorant. You make the 19 year old kids on E46 fanatics look good with some of what you say.

Lee is a personal friend of mine. He's a VERY honest individual. He is NOT a liar, and NEITHER am I. I take EXTREME offense to your accusatory attitude and references to him or I being liars. He absolutely, unequivocally, ran those times stock. He has run better times modded. Whether you believe these FACTS or not does not change a thing.

As far as your plea to the mods to come and save you...I think they are doing the absolute right thing and should be commended. It seems you stick your smelly foot in your mouth with every post you make, and your mods are probably sitting back and letting you get what you deserve.

Improviz

I read it on the shelf at a bookstore when this first came to light. I am not in the habit of buying Mustang magazines. But I remember their stating that this guy HAD run this time, supposedly when stock, but there WAS NO INSTRUMENTED ROAD TEST.

Prove it. Oh, and did he also switch out his stock exhaust so that he wouldn't ruin it as well?

Um, if one or two people only were claiming to have witnessed the Civil War, your ridiculous analogy might stand. But there were a few more witnesses than that...

One or two guys stating this doesn't prove it. Maybe in the mind of an incredibly biased BMW M car owner like yourself with two posts on our forums to his credit, but not to me.


No, because as I've pointed out, a timeslip contains ONLY the time A car ran, and BY NO MEANS establishes that the car that ran it is even the car we're *discussing* here, or even an *M3*, let alone whether it was unmodified.

The videos do not show his mods, we have only his word. The videos do show that weight saving measures were taken on the car. For every 100 pounds a car sheds, it will run 1/10 quicker in the 1/4 mile. Drag radials will reduce a car's 60' time by tenths, and each 1/10 in reduced 60' time equals 2/10 in reduced 1/4 mile ET. The wheels were not stock. There has been no proof provided that these tires were not drag radials.

Funny, I was thinking that someone able to afford a BMW would be intelligent enough to accept that no evidence whatsoever, other than a timeslip which does not identify the vehicle that ran it, let alone its state of tune, has been presented to support the claim that an unmodified M3 ran a 12.7.

Prove it. As to his credibility: at no point in that post did he mention weight-reduction MODIFICATIONS, even when asked by other posters what mods he had done. People can judge for themselves, but to me it's not a ringing endorsement.

And frankly, given the tone of your posts, I could care less what you think. You've done nothing but attack me personally for pointing out, accurately, that no evidence has been presented to support your claim. Well, cry me a river...calling me names doesn't change the fact that no evidence has been presented of this extraordinary claim.

I also pointed out, accurately, that this is not a BMW thing: it is a fact thing. If someone were making the same claim about a CLK55, the car I own, I would demand to see proof just the same. If anyone is showing brand bias here, it is you BMW guys, not me. All I am asking for is proof of this extrordinary claim, and the fact is that none has been presented, and that the cars in the videos shown so far are clearly modified.

I don't need anyone to "save me" from ignorant arguments without facts, or personal attacks. I was speaking specifically about M&M's multi-year trolling campaign, which presumably wouldn't bother a troll like yourself.

M-phibian

Whatever Imp.

You've made it perfectly clear that unless you are actually at the track watching it, you won't believe it regardless of how many videos or timeslips are posted. Bacially there's no convincing you. And that's fine.

You have established yourself as nothing more than a idiot tool that can't admit when he's wrong.

I've said my piece, the point's been proven....and now I'm done. Have fun in your dream world.

P.S. - Even though you may not believe it...the world is actually round. Not flat.

M&M

Impro-man, you amaze me more & more by the day. Have you ever run on a track anyway?

But yeah, you are right. There is probably no way to prove that the Lee's M3 was stock when he ran those times. 'Cos run those times he did. I guess taking the word of a respected racer like Lee is out of the question?

BUT, there is also no way you cna prove those runs weren't in a stock car as it wasn't on video. Also a car with after market wheels doesn't mean it has DR's. Can you prove it had DR's? Lee has close-ups of his aftermarket wheels at the strip & you can see the Conti's on them.
I guess you gonna' say he had a spare set of the exact sane mags with the Contis.

But if you understood anything about racing you would know that trap speed says it all. You work out what I'm saying.

Improviz

Troll #1: in examining your post, I see more personal attacks and name calling; a deceptive attempt to mischaracterize what I wrote, by way of an inference that I'm not accepting "video evidence" when in fact I am merely commenting that the cars in the videos presented thus far were clearly modified and thus do not support the claim you are making; and finally, more circular logic. But what I don't see is any link to a video of any non-modded M3 running a 12.7. What a surprise.

Troll #2: more personal attacks, and oh, please spare me the "prove a negative" argument. The onus of proof is on the person making the claim, not the other way around. One cannot prove a negative: for example, prove that *I* didn't run an 11.9@113 in a stock CLK55. You can't. Which is why World Records are not handed out on the basis of unverifiable claims, but on the basis of verifiable deeds.

Unfortunately for both of you, what we have here is unverifiable claims, and videos of modified M3s running faster-than-stock times, which prove nothing more than the rather obvious fact that modified M3's are faster than stock M3's. What a revelation: modified cars can run faster than stock!!! Thank you very little for pointing out the obvious.

M&M

Dude you really need to get a life. Don't be dissing other people's achievements if you weren't there. If you did a good run I'd be the 1st to congratulate you.

noka

I've been sitting on the sideline watching this and I have a comment and a question (and by the way, I have owned many "M" BMW's and do like them, so I have nothing against them) ...

1. Provide proof of the claim and end this argument once and for all.
2. Why were your threads closed by moderators on other sites?

Rgds,
Norm

M-phibian

Proof has already been provided. It was in the form of a timeslip and a magazine.

C&D says the SL600 went 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. Where's the video? All we have is what's in print and a few witnesses from a magazine. Same proof we have of the M3's stock run. But guess what? According to Imp's logic, if something isn't on video....it never happened.

Vomit

Thanks, guys! I was feeling kind of old and farty today, and you all have made me feel 12 again. I especially enjoyed the humorous irony of the frog (amphibian) calling the other guy a chimp! (Edit: Frogman, while I was writing this, you took out the "Imp the Chimp" comment from your post! C'mon, you aren't reverting to a polliwog on us, are you? )

My two cents: Both forums (C32 and M3) have guys breaking into the high twelves stock. Both forums have guys breaking into the mid twelves modded. My personal experience with my modded C32 was a 12.8/112 with street tires (I am a sheeetttty driver, and never have done less than a two second 60 foot time). Probably a good, lighter (I am 240 lbs) driver could get my car into the mid or even low 12 second range, even without committing the unforgiveable sin of gutting the interior of a $50K+ vehicle.

Frogman, I would have to agree with Chimp that your driver's credibility is a little suspect after having claimed that the only mod on his "lightened" E46 was power pullies. However, giving him the benefit of the doubt, the guy probably meant to say that his only ENGINE mod was power pullies.

Even if Lee was bulllsheeting, it seems probable that the hypothetical awesome driver could pilot either a stock C32 or a stock M3 into the twelves.

Improviz

An Internet post is not. And a timeslip is not proof of anything. You want a timeslip? Here is a timeslip. If I came, posted this, and said I'd run an 11.9 @ 130, would you buy it? No, of course not, because I'm not driving an M3! But if I was, I guess you'd swallow it hook, line, and sinker, right?



And stop lying and putting words in my mouth, you moronic roundel-sucking loser.

Improviz

....even when fast magazine tests for Mercedes *are* posted, you're in here challenging them, lying troll.

Improviz

I invite each and every person reading this thread to look at this, the first post in this thread. I specifically invite you to observe the timeslip posted by M&M in that thread, which he claims was run at 6,000 ft. when he was "bone stock". This time works out to a 12.8 at sea level. Note the date on the timeslip: May 2, 2004.

Now, as I've said in other debates with M&M, I don't think it is possible for a stock M3, on stock tires, to hit those times, and that the only way it *might* be possible was if the car was wearing drag radials, or as they're called in South Africa, "semi slicks". More on that in a moment....

But first, have a look at this post that M&M foolishly posted on Bimmerforums. In it, you see a pretty little picture from the Audi Club of South Africa . (You also see M&M very stupidly admitting that he ran that time "when his car was stock", a time which is a full half-second slower than his supposed "bone stock" 13.7 run, which I addressed in this post).

So, I paid their website a little visit. And boy, did I find out some useful information...

First, I was astonished to find that in addition to trolling the Audiworld S4 forums for over three years as I showed here, he has been trolling the Audi Club of South Africa's Audi forum for at least two years. Proof:

1) here he is, posting the same photos he posted here at MBWorld:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1097687511

2) here he is, being threatened with banishment for constant trolling:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...&lp=1082484032
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...&lp=1068488289
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...&lp=1068488289

...until he finally apologized to the board:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1066718958

3) here he is, trolling their forums with a critical post of the brand-new S4:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...&lp=1068019995

And here is proof of the duration of his trolling: this post is from December--2002!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...&lp=1039769306

So, he's been trolling several Audi forums for several years, and is deeply weird...we all know that. But that's just cake....here's the icing: in the following post, entitled "Got me a Quattro M3", our dear friend M&M proudly boasted to the members of the Audi Club of South Africa about a new addition to his car: "semi-slicks", i.e. DRAG RADIALS:
http://www.audiclubsa.org.za/forum/f...d%3D1082733270
And the birthday candles on the cake: look at the date on the post: April 23, 2004.

As I posted above, the date of his "bone stock" timeslip was May 2, 2004.



M&M, the emperor has no clothes.



ps: I saved a local copy of the timeslip image in case he tries to remove it from the site it's linked from, lol...

pps: frog boy, still want to lecture me on how a timeslip is "proof"?

noka

I thinks it's quite obvious M&M (and any people supporting him) have problems.

Rgds,
Norm

M&M

Improviz, can you prove I had the semi's when I ran those times?

Thought so.

So you lose.

BUT, I am an honest guy & if you look back at my posts you will see that I mentioned I have tried semi's before. They did NOTHING to my times. My best times are with street tyres. My timeslip I posted is with street tyres. Can you prove otherwise?

You see, an internet expert like you won't realise the intricacies involved. My best time was at Wesbank at night. In winter its pretty cold hence the good times at night.

However, the semi's work within a certain operating temp. Standing in the queue to line up you tyres get cold. When you get to the front a few wheelspins doesn't get enough heat into them. I'm not one for burnouts anyway.

So the cold tyres don't help. I think you will see on the M3 forums that many people have tried DR's & have gone at best 0.1 faster. At our elevation take away 17% RWHP & RWTQ & the M3 doesn't have enough torque to have significant traction problems to warrant DR's (like an E55, eg). I have even read on this BB that SOME people don't gain much with DR's.

But, I digress the point is you can't prove I ran with the DR's & even if I did they would give at best a 0.1 gain. But I will have videos & pics soon of my tyres at the track.

And if you investigate further into the Audi club you will see that some of those guys are now my best friends. We had a few debates, but when we met up at events we realised that all of us are enthusiasts that share the same passion. You didn't bother posting that did you?

noka

From what I have seen, it wasn't only that board where you were shut down. I can not support or refute your claims but your past history has more to do with intent (i.e. to flame and incite) rather than to post information to inform and join congenial conversation with friends.

Rgds,
Norm

M&M

Here's my post from the 21st of October last year where I admitted I have tried semi's. So I guess your AMAZING find is old news:

https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....9&postcount=49

As you can see I posted many months ago that my best time at altitude was 13.54 with the semi's. Now, that time can be verified by the Audi club guys as I went with them. But ODI is the fastest track we have here. Now you can see that I am honest as I have not mentioned that time since then in any argument. The reason is obviously I want to compare my best time bone stock on street tyres which is 13.7.

Now here's some proof of how little difference the semi's make on an M3. The date I posted about the semi's was APril 23 2004. Here's my slips from the 1st time I tried them at Wesbank Raceway on April 25th. I will rescan the slips so you can see the dates:



As you can see my best 60ft was 2.0 7 I did 13.9. I also did a 2.2 60ft with the same 1/4 mile time. Now here's my best 1/4 miles with the Toyo's:



Note the same 60ft times. The semi's didn't help me at all at Wesbank Raceway. Maybe if I could get more heat into them i would have my 60ft down by 1 tenth. I do better 60ft's at other tracks but this track is slippery. I suspect a car with loads of torque like an E55 might benefit more from semi's.

Improviz

Don't think so. I'm sure that it's just an amazing coincidence that you ran your best run within a week or two of bragging about your new semi-slicks on the South African Audi Club's board.

Belmondo

TGhere are two C32 owners on this forum from SA. One of them went to the track 2 times when mm did not show up of cause. He met the dude in C55 whosupposadly was lunching sideways and the one who was named as the dude who "lost" to mm. THe guy with the losing C55 told that the M3 he was running against was on semislicks. Its posted in the one of hte thread with the usual lies/arguments from mm. I bet mm did not show up at the track because it was not him and he does not even own the car or because the semislicks were off the car and he knew he could not beat he C55/C32 without them.

Belmondo

Just to be clear---no one "supports" him, he is a lone crusader. He basically throws BS on the wall and hopes that some of it sticks.
If however you call "supporting" as locking his threads on BMW forums ---than sure, he gets A LOT of that kind of "support".
Jean-Paul