Lets get my credibilility out of the way
01-12-2005, 11:23 AM
#76
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Yeah well I'm telling you I didn't have the semi's when I raced the C55 & when I did 13.7 I did 14.0 against the C55 in the video anyway & you can hear the wheelspin.
You guys can take my word for it or not. Up to you. But if don't then more evidence will be forthcoming shortly.
You guys can take my word for it or not. Up to you. But if don't then more evidence will be forthcoming shortly.
01-12-2005, 04:03 PM
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Chimp,
I love how you continually ignore the fact that he ran a 12.8 in MM&FF. So that would be a timeslip, *as well as* a magazine run.
MAN do I wish I had that magazine to scan and post. Anyone have the August, 2002 issue of Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords lying around? Doubtful...but I figured I'd ask. That would settle this very quickly. But then..he *only* ran a 12.8 in that one....so you'd still probably say his 12.72 is BS.
You know what, I'll email Evan Smith, the Tech Editor at MM&FF (who knows Lee personally), and see if he can get me something to post on here if he has the time. It's worth a shot at least.
I love how you continually ignore the fact that he ran a 12.8 in MM&FF. So that would be a timeslip, *as well as* a magazine run.
MAN do I wish I had that magazine to scan and post. Anyone have the August, 2002 issue of Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords lying around? Doubtful...but I figured I'd ask. That would settle this very quickly. But then..he *only* ran a 12.8 in that one....so you'd still probably say his 12.72 is BS.
You know what, I'll email Evan Smith, the Tech Editor at MM&FF (who knows Lee personally), and see if he can get me something to post on here if he has the time. It's worth a shot at least.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Ifrog boy, still want to lecture me on how a timeslip is "proof"? 
Last edited by M-phibian; 01-12-2005 at 04:18 PM.
01-12-2005, 04:40 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Toad, I just love how you accuse others of poor logic while using none of your own.
To wit: in the video posted earlier in this thread, we see an M3 running a 12.65. It is also clearly visible in the video that the M3 does not have a front seat. Which makes it a safe bet that the rear seat and everything else that wasn't nailed down had been removed--a savings of probably 250 pounds or so.
The owner also stated in the thread (where he conveniently forgot to mention the weight reduction when asked about his modifications) that the car also had pulleys. According to the people who sell them, these give you a 5-10 hp gain.
Now if you pull your head out for one minute and look at the above, what do you see? Each 100 pounds in weight reduction is about a tenth (check drag racing forums if you doubt this). Each 10 hp gained also gives you about a tenth.
So, we see that these mods together should have gained him 0.3-0.4 in the quarter mile.
And yet, you're claiming that he only gained about 0.05 seconds from his "bone stock" 12.7 run to do the 12.65 second run shown in the video, i.e. all of these mods only gained him 5/100 of a second from when he was "bone stock" and ran his magical 12.7 quarter mile, a feat which no other M3 owner on earth has managed to repeat, nor any magazine test, anywhere, in over three years of production.
However, if you act like you've got a brain, account for the mods, and add 0.35 seconds to the 12.65 shown, you get a 13.0--much more believable and plausible than a 12.7, although still significantly faster than the car has generally been tested, and imo still only likely with drag radials.
Oh, and then there's the smokey burnout at the beginning of the video. If you knew anything about drag racing, you might also know that smokey burnouts gain you NOTHING with street radials, which are designed to rapidly dissipate heat, but they gain you a LOT with drag radials, which are designed to retain it after being heated up. Go to any drag racing website, where you will see them advising people with street tires to avoid the water box and do a very quick burnout to remove debris from the tires.
But I'm sure that an expert drag racer like Lee didn't know this, or perhaps he just likes burning off his tires for no reason at racetracks.
To wit: in the video posted earlier in this thread, we see an M3 running a 12.65. It is also clearly visible in the video that the M3 does not have a front seat. Which makes it a safe bet that the rear seat and everything else that wasn't nailed down had been removed--a savings of probably 250 pounds or so.
The owner also stated in the thread (where he conveniently forgot to mention the weight reduction when asked about his modifications) that the car also had pulleys. According to the people who sell them, these give you a 5-10 hp gain.
Now if you pull your head out for one minute and look at the above, what do you see? Each 100 pounds in weight reduction is about a tenth (check drag racing forums if you doubt this). Each 10 hp gained also gives you about a tenth.
So, we see that these mods together should have gained him 0.3-0.4 in the quarter mile.
And yet, you're claiming that he only gained about 0.05 seconds from his "bone stock" 12.7 run to do the 12.65 second run shown in the video, i.e. all of these mods only gained him 5/100 of a second from when he was "bone stock" and ran his magical 12.7 quarter mile, a feat which no other M3 owner on earth has managed to repeat, nor any magazine test, anywhere, in over three years of production.
However, if you act like you've got a brain, account for the mods, and add 0.35 seconds to the 12.65 shown, you get a 13.0--much more believable and plausible than a 12.7, although still significantly faster than the car has generally been tested, and imo still only likely with drag radials.
Oh, and then there's the smokey burnout at the beginning of the video. If you knew anything about drag racing, you might also know that smokey burnouts gain you NOTHING with street radials, which are designed to rapidly dissipate heat, but they gain you a LOT with drag radials, which are designed to retain it after being heated up. Go to any drag racing website, where you will see them advising people with street tires to avoid the water box and do a very quick burnout to remove debris from the tires.
But I'm sure that an expert drag racer like Lee didn't know this, or perhaps he just likes burning off his tires for no reason at racetracks.
01-12-2005, 04:59 PM
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You know, you aren't going to learn anything sitting behind your keyboard. You can't add & subtract values from times to get estimates. If you were a racer you would know that. You might run slower on one day WITH MODS than you ran on another day stock. Certain days tracks are fast & some days they are slow. Hell sometimes even on the same day the track can go away from you & come back later. There are too many factors to explain.
Why are you harping on Lee's modd'd runs? We are talking about his stock runs with all the seats, etc. And remember his best times were done in very cold temps so you need a burnout or else the cold tyres will kill you. Also need to get the dirt off the tyres.
Here's some light reading & maybe you'll see the light: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=16247
Why are you harping on Lee's modd'd runs? We are talking about his stock runs with all the seats, etc. And remember his best times were done in very cold temps so you need a burnout or else the cold tyres will kill you. Also need to get the dirt off the tyres.
Here's some light reading & maybe you'll see the light: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=16247
01-12-2005, 05:05 PM
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CLS55 AMG
M&M, you have ZERO credibility to anyone on this board...
....and so I shall consider my mission accomplished, and not waste time arguing with you anymore. You have demonstrated far too many times that your sole mission here is to deceive and stir up ill will, and I'm simply not going to assist you in this goal. If you seriously believe that anyone here takes you seriously at this point, you're far better at self deception than you are at debate. 
01-12-2005, 05:35 PM
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Chimp,
It's obvious you're purely a magazine racer, as you know nothing about drag racing other than what you've read. I've been drag racing off and on for over 18 years, so ya...I know a little bit.
First off, his 12.72 run was just one of those runs. The type where all the stars were aligned, the temps/humidity was perfect..and his launch was flawless. He did it once when stock I believe. But he typically ran 12.8's and 12.9's.
IRT to the pulleys, I got 3 rwhp from mine. That's right, three. Not enough to make even a dent in a 1/4 mile time.
The 10 hp you are talking about that gives you a 1/10 in quicker in E.T. is *rwhp* genuis, not crank HP. So Lee might have gotten a whole 3 hundredths out of the pulleys. And no more. That number is so insignifcant that a better launch or better day temp/humidity wise would be much more help than the pulleys are.
The weight of the M3's manual front seat is 57 lbs (which is what Lee has). The weight of the entire rear seat is 40 lbs. Trying to exxagerate your point by using some number (250lbs) you pull out of your ignorant a$$ isnt helping your case. I mean, at least try and get your facts straight before speaking.
Now, add the seats together and we get 97 lbs. Or the rough equivelant increase of of 9.7 crank HP.
When using weight reduction to figure increases in acceleration, you have to convert the weight saved into rwhp, just like you do with engine mods...so that makes it the equivalent of 8 *rwhp*.
Add the .03 added by the addition of pulleys and we are at 1.1 tenths total E.T saved by the addition of pulleys and weight reduction from seats. Not the completely exxagerated .3 or .4 numbers you are using.
So he went form a 12.72 on a perfect run...to a 12.65 on a not as perefect run. This with an equivelant decrease of 1.1 tenths of a second in E.T. Had his run been as perfect as it was when he got his 12.72...he would have ran a 12.61...but alas, his 12.72 bone stock run is still his best comparatively speaking.
Then..after the addition of Eurobahn software and a AFE intake...he brought his time down to 12.49. Which is about right since the Eurobahn software and AFE intake combo will add about 25 rwhp to the car.
Regarding the burn-out before the run..again, this is another example of how you like to "read"...but not actually "do".
See...anyone that has dragged their car at he track more than once that has street tires on knows that not only do you need to burn the tires after going through the water box..but that heating them up makes them much more sticky than not heating them up. Especially on a cold day. Yes...they do not get as sticky as drag radials or slicks..but heating hem up makes a very significant diffeence.
Don't believe me? Try taking your car to the track once on a cold day and do two runs. Both with traction control off:
Do one without heating your tires up and one after with heating them up for 5 seconds. See which run is faster, then come and share your new found knowledge with us here on the forum.
Can I help you with anything else, my dense friend?
It's obvious you're purely a magazine racer, as you know nothing about drag racing other than what you've read. I've been drag racing off and on for over 18 years, so ya...I know a little bit.
First off, his 12.72 run was just one of those runs. The type where all the stars were aligned, the temps/humidity was perfect..and his launch was flawless. He did it once when stock I believe. But he typically ran 12.8's and 12.9's.
IRT to the pulleys, I got 3 rwhp from mine. That's right, three. Not enough to make even a dent in a 1/4 mile time.
The 10 hp you are talking about that gives you a 1/10 in quicker in E.T. is *rwhp* genuis, not crank HP. So Lee might have gotten a whole 3 hundredths out of the pulleys. And no more. That number is so insignifcant that a better launch or better day temp/humidity wise would be much more help than the pulleys are.
The weight of the M3's manual front seat is 57 lbs (which is what Lee has). The weight of the entire rear seat is 40 lbs. Trying to exxagerate your point by using some number (250lbs) you pull out of your ignorant a$$ isnt helping your case. I mean, at least try and get your facts straight before speaking.
Now, add the seats together and we get 97 lbs. Or the rough equivelant increase of of 9.7 crank HP.
When using weight reduction to figure increases in acceleration, you have to convert the weight saved into rwhp, just like you do with engine mods...so that makes it the equivalent of 8 *rwhp*.
Add the .03 added by the addition of pulleys and we are at 1.1 tenths total E.T saved by the addition of pulleys and weight reduction from seats. Not the completely exxagerated .3 or .4 numbers you are using.
So he went form a 12.72 on a perfect run...to a 12.65 on a not as perefect run. This with an equivelant decrease of 1.1 tenths of a second in E.T. Had his run been as perfect as it was when he got his 12.72...he would have ran a 12.61...but alas, his 12.72 bone stock run is still his best comparatively speaking.
Then..after the addition of Eurobahn software and a AFE intake...he brought his time down to 12.49. Which is about right since the Eurobahn software and AFE intake combo will add about 25 rwhp to the car.
Regarding the burn-out before the run..again, this is another example of how you like to "read"...but not actually "do".
See...anyone that has dragged their car at he track more than once that has street tires on knows that not only do you need to burn the tires after going through the water box..but that heating them up makes them much more sticky than not heating them up. Especially on a cold day. Yes...they do not get as sticky as drag radials or slicks..but heating hem up makes a very significant diffeence.
Don't believe me? Try taking your car to the track once on a cold day and do two runs. Both with traction control off:
Do one without heating your tires up and one after with heating them up for 5 seconds. See which run is faster, then come and share your new found knowledge with us here on the forum.
Can I help you with anything else, my dense friend?
Originally Posted by Improviz
Toad, I just love how you accuse others of poor logic while using none of your own.
To wit: in the video posted earlier in this thread, we see an M3 running a 12.65. It is also clearly visible in the video that the M3 does not have a front seat. Which makes it a safe bet that the rear seat and everything else that wasn't nailed down had been removed--a savings of probably 250 pounds or so.
The owner also stated in the thread (where he conveniently forgot to mention the weight reduction when asked about his modifications) that the car also had pulleys. According to the people who sell them, these give you a 5-10 hp gain.
Now if you pull your head out for one minute and look at the above, what do you see? Each 100 pounds in weight reduction is about a tenth (check drag racing forums if you doubt this). Each 10 hp gained also gives you about a tenth.
So, we see that these mods together should have gained him 0.3-0.4 in the quarter mile.
And yet, you're claiming that he only gained about 0.05 seconds from his "bone stock" 12.7 run to do the 12.65 second run shown in the video, i.e. all of these mods only gained him 5/100 of a second from when he was "bone stock" and ran his magical 12.7 quarter mile, a feat which no other M3 owner on earth has managed to repeat, nor any magazine test, anywhere, in over three years of production.
However, if you act like you've got a brain, account for the mods, and add 0.35 seconds to the 12.65 shown, you get a 13.0--much more believable and plausible than a 12.7, although still significantly faster than the car has generally been tested, and imo still only likely with drag radials.
Oh, and then there's the smokey burnout at the beginning of the video. If you knew anything about drag racing, you might also know that smokey burnouts gain you NOTHING with street radials, which are designed to rapidly dissipate heat, but they gain you a LOT with drag radials, which are designed to retain it after being heated up. Go to any drag racing website, where you will see them advising people with street tires to avoid the water box and do a very quick burnout to remove debris from the tires.
But I'm sure that an expert drag racer like Lee didn't know this, or perhaps he just likes burning off his tires for no reason at racetracks.
To wit: in the video posted earlier in this thread, we see an M3 running a 12.65. It is also clearly visible in the video that the M3 does not have a front seat. Which makes it a safe bet that the rear seat and everything else that wasn't nailed down had been removed--a savings of probably 250 pounds or so.
The owner also stated in the thread (where he conveniently forgot to mention the weight reduction when asked about his modifications) that the car also had pulleys. According to the people who sell them, these give you a 5-10 hp gain.
Now if you pull your head out for one minute and look at the above, what do you see? Each 100 pounds in weight reduction is about a tenth (check drag racing forums if you doubt this). Each 10 hp gained also gives you about a tenth.
So, we see that these mods together should have gained him 0.3-0.4 in the quarter mile.
And yet, you're claiming that he only gained about 0.05 seconds from his "bone stock" 12.7 run to do the 12.65 second run shown in the video, i.e. all of these mods only gained him 5/100 of a second from when he was "bone stock" and ran his magical 12.7 quarter mile, a feat which no other M3 owner on earth has managed to repeat, nor any magazine test, anywhere, in over three years of production.
However, if you act like you've got a brain, account for the mods, and add 0.35 seconds to the 12.65 shown, you get a 13.0--much more believable and plausible than a 12.7, although still significantly faster than the car has generally been tested, and imo still only likely with drag radials.
Oh, and then there's the smokey burnout at the beginning of the video. If you knew anything about drag racing, you might also know that smokey burnouts gain you NOTHING with street radials, which are designed to rapidly dissipate heat, but they gain you a LOT with drag radials, which are designed to retain it after being heated up. Go to any drag racing website, where you will see them advising people with street tires to avoid the water box and do a very quick burnout to remove debris from the tires.
But I'm sure that an expert drag racer like Lee didn't know this, or perhaps he just likes burning off his tires for no reason at racetracks.
Last edited by M-phibian; 01-12-2005 at 05:40 PM.
01-12-2005, 05:38 PM
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OK I am useless & pathetic. I heard that before. But in the morning the sun will rise & nothing you can say or do will change the fact that Lee did run those times in his M3.
01-12-2005, 07:22 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Toad, we've already dealt with your fantastic claims with no evidence, so when you produce evidence that a stock M3 can run a 12.7 with no weight reduction on stock tires, we'll talk about that.
The rear seat and the front seat combined are less than 100 pounds, eh? I know Bimmers are cheap, but I didn't realize their components were made of balsa wood! I guess the steel seat frames, etc. are weightless.
Wheel horsepower? BS. Crank horsepower. 10 crank horspower = 1/10 in the 1/4 mile. Show me any decent technical reference stating otherwise.
As to who knows what about the effectiveness of long smokey burnouts when using street tires, well: I stated that a short burnout to remove debris from the tires is best. You claim a long one like that in the video is best...let's see what the experts say, shall we?
http://www.musclecarclub.com/library....shtml#burnout
http://www.lapeerdragway.com/drag_racing_tips.htm
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e34/messag...w08/73216.html
Now then: like M&M, it seems that you are not interested in any sort of honest debate, but rather incessant name-calling and repetition of unprovable assertions. So, until/unless you produce some evidence to back up your claim of a verified stock M3 running a 12.7, I'm through wasting time on you too, toady...back to your pond at Bimmerforums or whatever forum you came over here from to troll.
The rear seat and the front seat combined are less than 100 pounds, eh? I know Bimmers are cheap, but I didn't realize their components were made of balsa wood! I guess the steel seat frames, etc. are weightless.
Wheel horsepower? BS. Crank horsepower. 10 crank horspower = 1/10 in the 1/4 mile. Show me any decent technical reference stating otherwise.
As to who knows what about the effectiveness of long smokey burnouts when using street tires, well: I stated that a short burnout to remove debris from the tires is best. You claim a long one like that in the video is best...let's see what the experts say, shall we?
http://www.musclecarclub.com/library....shtml#burnout
Go around the water box. Do a short burnout to get the dirt off of your tires and heat them up a bit. Hold the brake with your left foot, and goose it with your right for a couple of seconds.
For street tires, a long burnout is not necessary. Street compounds are hard, and high performance tires are specifically designed to not heat up. Clean off your tires and warm them up with a quick, short burnout.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e34/messag...w08/73216.html
Unless you have slicks or "cheater slicks" that need to be heated for better improvement of the tires, DO NOT go through the wet burnout box if you have regular street tires. It will actually hurt your launches, and many street tires weren"t meant to be heated that much. Unlike slicks, heating street tires will actually ruin the traction on your street tires. Check with the manufacturer of the tire to make sure how much heat it needs to get optimal performance. Another reason why you shouldn"t go through the waterbox is that...on treaded tires..you bring out water into the staging area...therefore you will lose traction during launches. On most street tires, just do a small "DRY" burnout.
01-12-2005, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by M&M
OK I am useless & pathetic. I heard that before. But in the morning the sun will rise & nothing you can say or do will change the fact that Lee did run those times in his M3.
