400 Crank HP with the 4.3 M113
01-03-2011, 02:44 AM
#26
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Autoscope is having mustang come out and recalibrate their dyno this month, so hes not expected up before that of course, I am in contact with one of the Autoscope guys via email and he will be letting me know when their back up and running and Jerry sets a date. I can't wait to spend all this money but I am going to be doing it slowly, piece by piece, I wish I could just run out and dump the $5k today but I don't think that would be as fun or as smart money wise.
01-03-2011, 02:54 AM
#27
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Thread Starter
Yeah, its the way life goes... Slowly but surely. You are going to LOVE that suspension setup, you wont even mind the time spent waiting... I really can't wait until you dumb some dough into your exhaust, I want to hear some crazy C43 exhaust before I spend money on it.
01-03-2011, 02:58 AM
#28
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Yeah, its the way life goes... Slowly but surely. You are going to LOVE that suspension setup, you wont even mind the time spent waiting... I really can't wait until you dumb some dough into your exhaust, I want to hear some crazy C43 exhaust before I spend money on it.
01-03-2011, 03:07 AM
#29
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I think if you go with Kleemann headers and delete 2nd cats (add X pipe) delete res (add Y pipe) you will get exactly what your looking for. Should be a VERY mean sounding setup and you should see a slight gain from the X and Y pipes due to higher flow, it will compliment the gains from those headers VERY well.
01-03-2011, 03:10 AM
#30
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I think if you go with Kleemann headers and delete 2nd cats (add X pipe) delete res (add Y pipe) you will get exactly what your looking for. Should be a VERY mean sounding setup and you should see a slight gain from the X and Y pipes due to higher flow, it will compliment the gains from those headers VERY well.
01-03-2011, 03:13 AM
#31
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Thread Starter
When I did the headers on my Nissan it was night and day different sound. I really hope its the same in this case. I have just my res deleted (add Y pipe) and im NOT happy with the sound. Still way too muffled. I don't want to sound like an SS with electric cut outs but id really like it to be louder. PJ's car is pretty sick sounding but ive heard you loose low end TQ going with the straight pipes vs the X and Y setup, that can actually show some gains.
01-03-2011, 12:52 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Guys, again, I hate to rain on your parade, but you really should spend more time reading what is already here in this forum rather than starting a new thread every five minutes.
An aftermarket parts business such as Kleemann, Brabus, etc are in the business of selling (very expensive) aftermarket parts. If they say their headers will gain +21 hp, I believe they will get close, but not at the peak horsepower level of the stock engine. They do that because that is the biggest number and it sells parts. So it will not be 302 hp plus 21 hp = 323 hp because the headers are giving that gain at a different point in the rev range. So it may be 285 hp @ 4300 rpm plus 21 hp is 306 hp @ 4300 rpm. It may shift your curve around and that may or may not be your peak horsepower. And each of those mods listed will achieve their gains at different points in the range and the number you get with your combo is any body's guess. But I can promise that Eurocharged is not going to sign up to give you 400 horsepower or your money back with a few bolt ons.
An aftermarket parts business such as Kleemann, Brabus, etc are in the business of selling (very expensive) aftermarket parts. If they say their headers will gain +21 hp, I believe they will get close, but not at the peak horsepower level of the stock engine. They do that because that is the biggest number and it sells parts. So it will not be 302 hp plus 21 hp = 323 hp because the headers are giving that gain at a different point in the rev range. So it may be 285 hp @ 4300 rpm plus 21 hp is 306 hp @ 4300 rpm. It may shift your curve around and that may or may not be your peak horsepower. And each of those mods listed will achieve their gains at different points in the range and the number you get with your combo is any body's guess. But I can promise that Eurocharged is not going to sign up to give you 400 horsepower or your money back with a few bolt ons.
01-03-2011, 03:47 PM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Guys, again, I hate to rain on your parade, but you really should spend more time reading what is already here in this forum rather than starting a new thread every five minutes.
An aftermarket parts business such as Kleemann, Brabus, etc are in the business of selling (very expensive) aftermarket parts. If they say their headers will gain +21 hp, I believe they will get close, but not at the peak horsepower level of the stock engine. They do that because that is the biggest number and it sells parts. So it will not be 302 hp plus 21 hp = 323 hp because the headers are giving that gain at a different point in the rev range. So it may be 285 hp @ 4300 rpm plus 21 hp is 306 hp @ 4300 rpm. It may shift your curve around and that may or may not be your peak horsepower. And each of those mods listed will achieve their gains at different points in the range and the number you get with your combo is any body's guess. But I can promise that Eurocharged is not going to sign up to give you 400 horsepower or your money back with a few bolt ons.
An aftermarket parts business such as Kleemann, Brabus, etc are in the business of selling (very expensive) aftermarket parts. If they say their headers will gain +21 hp, I believe they will get close, but not at the peak horsepower level of the stock engine. They do that because that is the biggest number and it sells parts. So it will not be 302 hp plus 21 hp = 323 hp because the headers are giving that gain at a different point in the rev range. So it may be 285 hp @ 4300 rpm plus 21 hp is 306 hp @ 4300 rpm. It may shift your curve around and that may or may not be your peak horsepower. And each of those mods listed will achieve their gains at different points in the range and the number you get with your combo is any body's guess. But I can promise that Eurocharged is not going to sign up to give you 400 horsepower or your money back with a few bolt ons.
01-03-2011, 03:59 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Yes, yes it does. ^ And its fun! Ive read all the old posts I can and the problem is, very few people in this section ever did anything to these cars but SC or 5.4 swap. However, you all make great points and Hell no Eurocharged would put their money down on 400hp... No one ever said they would.
01-04-2011, 12:29 PM
#35
Yes it can be done ... the question is at what price.
As mentioned by other members you cannot just add up the numbers with simple arithmetic and assume it will be that simple. Its not.
Yes in order to get there you will need our crank pulley as Buffy mentioned. However that's not all. Realistically the biggest problem is the stock cams. It will actually be easier to get 400TQ than 400HP for that reason. The only way to counteract the torquey nature of these engines is to free up airflow on the top end significantly.
The only way you can hit 400HP is with custom full length high flow headers. Without them you will NEVER get enough airflow on the high end with only 4.3Ls. On the 5.5ls 400 HP is piece of cake, but on 4.3Ls you have to obtain far more efficiency to get it to those power levels.
The 4.3L and 5.5L weigh basically the same, the only difference really is crank, connecting rods & pistons, all of which are close to one another. There may be a 10lb different or something but certainly not 100lbs. Remember its the same block with almost all the same components.
A full custom dyno tune will also be required and no standard off-the-shelf tune will do it if you are looking for stupid gains. Remember to go from 300-400 you are increasing your power output by a full 33%, and you are approaching 100HP/L (getting pretty close to it). The closer you get to 100HP/L the costs of extracting HP go exponential. At the end of the day you need to closely evaluate whether this is worth it to you, but realistically it will cost you the whole price of the car just to get it done (probably $6k+ including labor to get it done).
Hope that helps.
As mentioned by other members you cannot just add up the numbers with simple arithmetic and assume it will be that simple. Its not.
Yes in order to get there you will need our crank pulley as Buffy mentioned. However that's not all. Realistically the biggest problem is the stock cams. It will actually be easier to get 400TQ than 400HP for that reason. The only way to counteract the torquey nature of these engines is to free up airflow on the top end significantly.
The only way you can hit 400HP is with custom full length high flow headers. Without them you will NEVER get enough airflow on the high end with only 4.3Ls. On the 5.5ls 400 HP is piece of cake, but on 4.3Ls you have to obtain far more efficiency to get it to those power levels.
The 4.3L and 5.5L weigh basically the same, the only difference really is crank, connecting rods & pistons, all of which are close to one another. There may be a 10lb different or something but certainly not 100lbs. Remember its the same block with almost all the same components.
A full custom dyno tune will also be required and no standard off-the-shelf tune will do it if you are looking for stupid gains. Remember to go from 300-400 you are increasing your power output by a full 33%, and you are approaching 100HP/L (getting pretty close to it). The closer you get to 100HP/L the costs of extracting HP go exponential. At the end of the day you need to closely evaluate whether this is worth it to you, but realistically it will cost you the whole price of the car just to get it done (probably $6k+ including labor to get it done).
Hope that helps.
01-04-2011, 01:38 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yes it can be done ... the question is at what price.
As mentioned by other members you cannot just add up the numbers with simple arithmetic and assume it will be that simple. Its not.
Yes in order to get there you will need our crank pulley as Buffy mentioned. However that's not all. Realistically the biggest problem is the stock cams. It will actually be easier to get 400TQ than 400HP for that reason. The only way to counteract the torquey nature of these engines is to free up airflow on the top end significantly.
The only way you can hit 400HP is with custom full length high flow headers. Without them you will NEVER get enough airflow on the high end with only 4.3Ls. On the 5.5ls 400 HP is piece of cake, but on 4.3Ls you have to obtain far more efficiency to get it to those power levels.
The 4.3L and 5.5L weigh basically the same, the only difference really is crank, connecting rods & pistons, all of which are close to one another. There may be a 10lb different or something but certainly not 100lbs. Remember its the same block with almost all the same components.
A full custom dyno tune will also be required and no standard off-the-shelf tune will do it if you are looking for stupid gains. Remember to go from 300-400 you are increasing your power output by a full 33%, and you are approaching 100HP/L (getting pretty close to it). The closer you get to 100HP/L the costs of extracting HP go exponential. At the end of the day you need to closely evaluate whether this is worth it to you, but realistically it will cost you the whole price of the car just to get it done (probably $6k+ including labor to get it done).
Hope that helps.
As mentioned by other members you cannot just add up the numbers with simple arithmetic and assume it will be that simple. Its not.
Yes in order to get there you will need our crank pulley as Buffy mentioned. However that's not all. Realistically the biggest problem is the stock cams. It will actually be easier to get 400TQ than 400HP for that reason. The only way to counteract the torquey nature of these engines is to free up airflow on the top end significantly.
The only way you can hit 400HP is with custom full length high flow headers. Without them you will NEVER get enough airflow on the high end with only 4.3Ls. On the 5.5ls 400 HP is piece of cake, but on 4.3Ls you have to obtain far more efficiency to get it to those power levels.
The 4.3L and 5.5L weigh basically the same, the only difference really is crank, connecting rods & pistons, all of which are close to one another. There may be a 10lb different or something but certainly not 100lbs. Remember its the same block with almost all the same components.
A full custom dyno tune will also be required and no standard off-the-shelf tune will do it if you are looking for stupid gains. Remember to go from 300-400 you are increasing your power output by a full 33%, and you are approaching 100HP/L (getting pretty close to it). The closer you get to 100HP/L the costs of extracting HP go exponential. At the end of the day you need to closely evaluate whether this is worth it to you, but realistically it will cost you the whole price of the car just to get it done (probably $6k+ including labor to get it done).
Hope that helps.
01-04-2011, 03:46 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
The oddest this about this reply is that everything you claim is needed to reach this goal is already listed. ie- custom headers and down pipe, higher flow exhaust, cams, pulley, and tune.
01-04-2011, 04:22 PM
#38
Kleemann headers are NOT true long tubes. They are actually just slightly extended shorties with a primary cat delete. MBH makes TRUE long tube headers, and there is a significantly difference in the amount of power they make. A basic off the shelf tune won't cut it. You need a TRUE custom dyno tune, done on the dyno specifically for that car. Any other way will be a waste.
01-04-2011, 04:40 PM
#39
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Thread Starter
Like the dyno tune I have listed from Eurocharged? Made just for this car by Jerry, he lets you watch the before and after runs and video it if you like? Good info on those long tube headers. How much for a set for the C43 and what are the claimed gains?
01-04-2011, 08:22 PM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
^ Of course they do, its their job to sell. Unless an HPS kit comes up for sale at a great used price sometime in the next year, ill be taking one for the team and trying these mods one by one and seeing where they get me.
01-04-2011, 09:06 PM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would guess that you would actually need the things you listed, plus head work with larger valves and an increased redline. Horsepower is a function of engine speed, so if you can get the airflow and reliably increase the redline (may need stiffer valve springs, lighten crank [not pulley, actually lighten and knife edge the crank], etc.) hopefully the engine remains decently efficient at those engine speeds and you can make some power.
Its a good discussion though.
Its a good discussion though.
01-04-2011, 10:14 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
Eurocharged mention that they were going to adjust the red line during the tune, I never knew that could make that much of a difference. Who does this kind of head work and does anyone make the stiffer valve springs your talking about or would it all have to be custom at this point?
And where is AMS with the reply about those long tube headers?
And where is AMS with the reply about those long tube headers?
01-05-2011, 11:51 AM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is an assumption, but the E55K has either stiffer or double valve springs that should be able to fit. The head work would be custom and pricey, at least pricey to get someone to do it who knows what they are doing.
You can only make more horsepower by increasing the redline if the engine remains efficient at those engine speeds. You can tell by looking at a dyno chart. If the horsepower is already dropping off before you hit the current redline, you aren't going to make more power by upping it. However, if the horsepower curve continues to go up and/or the torque curve remains relatively flat near the current redline, you have the potential to make more power by increasing the redline.
You can only make more horsepower by increasing the redline if the engine remains efficient at those engine speeds. You can tell by looking at a dyno chart. If the horsepower is already dropping off before you hit the current redline, you aren't going to make more power by upping it. However, if the horsepower curve continues to go up and/or the torque curve remains relatively flat near the current redline, you have the potential to make more power by increasing the redline.
01-05-2011, 05:38 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
This is an assumption, but the E55K has either stiffer or double valve springs that should be able to fit. The head work would be custom and pricey, at least pricey to get someone to do it who knows what they are doing.
You can only make more horsepower by increasing the redline if the engine remains efficient at those engine speeds. You can tell by looking at a dyno chart. If the horsepower is already dropping off before you hit the current redline, you aren't going to make more power by upping it. However, if the horsepower curve continues to go up and/or the torque curve remains relatively flat near the current redline, you have the potential to make more power by increasing the redline.
You can only make more horsepower by increasing the redline if the engine remains efficient at those engine speeds. You can tell by looking at a dyno chart. If the horsepower is already dropping off before you hit the current redline, you aren't going to make more power by upping it. However, if the horsepower curve continues to go up and/or the torque curve remains relatively flat near the current redline, you have the potential to make more power by increasing the redline.
01-05-2011, 06:32 PM
#46
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190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
Horsepower isn't everything.
The hp difference between a stk 43 and the average N/A 55 engine is only about 50hp (16% gain). the peak torque gain is 25% but the average torque gain below 2k rpm is around 35%. I certainly know how that's going to affect the grin on my face!
400hp from a N/A 55 engine would be a very nice combination and easliy atainable.
Some 55 N/A engine have double valve springs (SLK55 comes to mind) so they would be one ones I'd use as they should be direct fit (with the retainers).
The hp difference between a stk 43 and the average N/A 55 engine is only about 50hp (16% gain). the peak torque gain is 25% but the average torque gain below 2k rpm is around 35%. I certainly know how that's going to affect the grin on my face!
400hp from a N/A 55 engine would be a very nice combination and easliy atainable.
Some 55 N/A engine have double valve springs (SLK55 comes to mind) so they would be one ones I'd use as they should be direct fit (with the retainers).
01-09-2011, 10:29 AM
#48
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Thread Starter
01-09-2011, 11:09 AM
#49
Senior Member
What he said. You are talking about fairly complicated interactions between these mods. I'd be willing to bet that you might in fact lose some HP by trying to integrate all of these mods in such a bolt-on manner. I'd stick with cams/headers which have at least presumably been developed to work as a package, and then take it to a dyno tuner that you trust. Even then, I'd be surprised if you gained 50 HP from it. This isn't even considering the fact that most "tuners" grossly overstate the gains from their mods....or at least burn dyno sheets in less than normal conditions/environmentals
With cams, the gains are only there if the ECU can be tuned for the higher lift.
You also have to factor- in timing dwell - IDC, and fuel optimization w/ the stock injectors. I am pretty sure the dwell is not adjustable on the C43's Motronic. Its a pretty early gen IIRC.
That advertised gain in HP for the cams, if accurate, sounds like its mildly aggressive, so if the tune fails, you're going to actually loose power and drivability as stated. BTDT.
If those headers are LT, then that will, IMO, be the best bang for the buck mod. Shorty's are so-so. More of an audible gain really.
There comes a point of diminishing returns in trying to tweek HP out of older NA cars. Like the others have said 330-340hp tops....if even that. You'd be surprised how much it takes for an NA motor to gain hp.
As far as pulleys, meh, thats for higher revving,higher compression motors w/ flatter tq curves. The 43 makes most of its power down low and its over pretty quick, hence negligible gains w/ a pulley. Perhaps I'm wrong but I have yet to see a fully corrected dyno printout of gains w/ a pulley for this motor. I've seen graphic charts, but not real printouts.
A friend of mine spent stupid money on his 92 500e tune, and after driving it I hardly noticed any change than when it was stock....and I've driven the car several times in the past. Its fast as it is.
I know this sounds extreme, but it might be cheaper in the long run to save up for an e39 M5 or a different AMG. I know of at least 2 w202 AMG guys on this forum and the old Club202 one that went that route and never looked back.
Still its fun to speculate so carry on
01-09-2011, 02:08 PM
#50
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
E39 M5- Ha. Yeah how much is a tune up for that ***** heap? How much are the new parts that fail all the time due to carbon build up? No thanks. Ill swap is a 5.4 motor for what it would cost to swap into an E39 M5 and be able to run them into the ground. I have two friends with E39 M5's, your right about them never looking back, due to the fact they always have their eyes fixed on the next bill! And who has to save to own a E39 M5? Aren't they all pretty much under 20k now?
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...t-attempt.html
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...t-attempt.html
I agree 100%.
With cams, the gains are only there if the ECU can be tuned for the higher lift.
You also have to factor- in timing dwell - IDC, and fuel optimization w/ the stock injectors. I am pretty sure the dwell is not adjustable on the C43's Motronic. Its a pretty early gen IIRC.
That advertised gain in HP for the cams, if accurate, sounds like its mildly aggressive, so if the tune fails, you're going to actually loose power and drivability as stated. BTDT.
If those headers are LT, then that will, IMO, be the best bang for the buck mod. Shorty's are so-so. More of an audible gain really.
There comes a point of diminishing returns in trying to tweek HP out of older NA cars. Like the others have said 330-340hp tops....if even that. You'd be surprised how much it takes for an NA motor to gain hp.
As far as pulleys, meh, thats for higher revving,higher compression motors w/ flatter tq curves. The 43 makes most of its power down low and its over pretty quick, hence negligible gains w/ a pulley. Perhaps I'm wrong but I have yet to see a fully corrected dyno printout of gains w/ a pulley for this motor. I've seen graphic charts, but not real printouts.
A friend of mine spent stupid money on his 92 500e tune, and after driving it I hardly noticed any change than when it was stock....and I've driven the car several times in the past. Its fast as it is.
I know this sounds extreme, but it might be cheaper in the long run to save up for an e39 M5 or a different AMG. I know of at least 2 w202 AMG guys on this forum and the old Club202 one that went that route and never looked back.
Still its fun to speculate so carry on
With cams, the gains are only there if the ECU can be tuned for the higher lift.
You also have to factor- in timing dwell - IDC, and fuel optimization w/ the stock injectors. I am pretty sure the dwell is not adjustable on the C43's Motronic. Its a pretty early gen IIRC.
That advertised gain in HP for the cams, if accurate, sounds like its mildly aggressive, so if the tune fails, you're going to actually loose power and drivability as stated. BTDT.
If those headers are LT, then that will, IMO, be the best bang for the buck mod. Shorty's are so-so. More of an audible gain really.
There comes a point of diminishing returns in trying to tweek HP out of older NA cars. Like the others have said 330-340hp tops....if even that. You'd be surprised how much it takes for an NA motor to gain hp.
As far as pulleys, meh, thats for higher revving,higher compression motors w/ flatter tq curves. The 43 makes most of its power down low and its over pretty quick, hence negligible gains w/ a pulley. Perhaps I'm wrong but I have yet to see a fully corrected dyno printout of gains w/ a pulley for this motor. I've seen graphic charts, but not real printouts.
A friend of mine spent stupid money on his 92 500e tune, and after driving it I hardly noticed any change than when it was stock....and I've driven the car several times in the past. Its fast as it is.
I know this sounds extreme, but it might be cheaper in the long run to save up for an e39 M5 or a different AMG. I know of at least 2 w202 AMG guys on this forum and the old Club202 one that went that route and never looked back.
Still its fun to speculate so carry on
Last edited by austinholloman; 01-09-2011 at 02:12 PM.
