Pagz

Thanks for this, I have ordered everything, that is new chain,rails and ALL sprockets and tensioner(a bit OT). I found the rails had cracks and were worn through the initial layer in some spots. quite a bit of wear on the oil pump chain guide/tensioner.

I would have thought that taking the measurement directly above the valve on the rocker would have been pretty close to the same as off the valve? ..and would have removed the lash from the hydrolic lifter. also, I tried it directly on the valve and got values indicating even more stretch, I assumed this was due to lash.

Cant wait to install everything and recheck, I will laugh for some time if there is zero difference. =)

Cylinder walls look excellent.

Edit - Also another theory about the cam timing - with the cams out there is ZERO numbers on them, so I cannot identify them to compare with WIS specs, all I can do is assume they are what is speced in WIS. this lines up with all the other parts on the engine with older factory numbers that don't exist in WIS. happened a lot apparently post 2004.

NewMLGuy

LoL. You may very well find that the readings will be very close to what you're getting now, because the stetch of the chain will be taken up by the tensioner. The stretch link to link is usually negligeble that the cam time timing doesn't 'know' it's there, unless it's stretched past what the tensioner can take up. In these extreme cases though, you get a lot chain rattle at low rpm, just before it skips a tooth or two.

When you're doing your check next time, make sure the lifter is not collapsing as you turn the engine - this will obviously make you turn the engine over more, before you get your 2mm lift at the valve.

I probably would not have replaced the sprokets, but the tensioner you should replace always, especially these hydraulic ones.

As for valve lash... That's the reason manufacturer's started using hydraulic lifters, so that they would take up any variations in valve lash which translates into less maintenance (no adjustment required), and no valve lash - so cam timing is always bang on. When you rebuild an engine and set your valves with hydraulic lifters, the specs will typically ask you to close valve lash and give it another 1 - 1.5 full turns to put the plunger down a bit. But at the same time, when the engine is apart, the lifters drain down.

It's good that the cylinder walls look good (and they should at the milage), but be sure to measure them anyway and machine them if required. If all is well, I would do a light hone on them just to deglaze. Just be sure not take any material off as you do it.

Cam timing - there's typically nothing on the cams in the way of part numbers. If they are stock, they are what the OEM put in, unfortunately. You are usually lucky if there are timing marks...

...Sigh... I have to do mine soon to. I really, really don't want to. :-)

Pagz

As you know the focus is the wear causing a longer fixed path from crank to cam sprockets, I'm not sure how the tensioner comes into this other than it not functioning as it should or the chain is so far gone it runs out of travel, I compressed the tensioner by hand and it lost all its oil, I figured this wasnt ideal

The reason I took value's off of the rocker is eactly that, to avoid lifters with no oil lol.

I still dont see how the value off of the rocker directly above the valve/lifter is much different from the valve, sure there is some arc from rocker pivot but its almost negligable at 2mm lift.

Also, "Lash" is this a term for the gap/play?, or a term for the gap/play on a tappet etc?...I've always used it as a term for the gap/play regardless of what is used to create the gap/play, in this case I was refering to the lifter having lash because it does not have any oil pressure.

I wasnt planning to replace any of the timing system as I didnt believe my results showed stretch, but due to one of the coolant seals between the timing case and block being split(must have happened from factory) I have the engine in short block form so good time to give the once over. visually you can see the load side of the crank and cam sprockets is worn but mostly the crank, not enough to warrent replacment but they are not overly expensive either.

WIS states there should be a two digit number on the cam flange for identification, there are a few different cams for the M113. Ironically, the timing specs I got line up with some M113 5.0 specs, which ironically alot of the M113 5.4 parts come from. on later M113 I have seen a complete MB part number on the cam.

I'm not going to measure the bores xD

benzslo

lash is a gap, or play. this engine uses hydraulic tappets and there should never be any play, the tappets/lifters are pre-loaded. they'd have to be really bled down.

Pagz

Yes. I've found on both my M113's which ever hydrolic tappet is compressed on engine stop looses its oil with no noise on startup. I have had nearly every tappet in this stat for months on the 5.4 and all have lost oil. hence why I took readings off the rocker.

Sulaco

Replaced tensioner in mine as a sort of cheap stop-gap measure hoping it would at least alleviate some of the problem, but the old tensioner was still fine. Now I'm saving my new tensioner for whenever I can get around to swapping the chain out. I've never done a timing chain and not sure if I should bother. I have a good, trusted tech who works on euro cars who says he can do it.

Is it a tough job? I'd at least like to open it up enough at home to inspect things.

Alex33

Bringing this back up. I was just told I need a new chain and tensioner on mine. 157k on the clock, rattling at idle, no performance issues, just noise. I was quoted more than a motor to replace as I was told the engine has to be pulled. Any other insight?

NewMLGuy

...

Sulaco

Motor does not have to be pulled. The shop is likely quoting you on a chain AND chain guides. The chain isn't that difficult to replace, but very rarely does only the chain need to go. Most of time one of the guides has let go and isn't holding the chain correctly. I doubt at 156k your chain has stretched much. Mine has just under 300k so chain stretch is likely.

Changing the guides requires removing the entire front of the engine: water pump, upper and lower timing covers, water pump, oil cooler, intake manifold, entire intake/ignition system, valve covers, and a few other odds and ends. My trusted shop is cutting me a deal at 1200 bucks but I can pretty much find a 5.4 engine for that much, so I'm torn.

Alex33

$1200 would be great. I'll have to shop around as I was quoted double that and it definitely is not in the budget.

edwonger

i wish i can find a 5.4 for 1200 but then again i dont know where to search for one. lol

DRBC43AMG

Your profile doesn't mention the area you live in. That could help for an answer

edwonger

Oh haha. Los Angeles, CA

DRBC43AMG

OK much better. Funny you can't find 55 engines in CA. Perhaps someone on here also from your region can inform. Also you may try opening a new thread/topic as our posts are OT on the thread M113 Chain Stretch

RobertM27

Hey try out car-part.com. I just searched in our area (los angeles) and there is actually a few for sale around the 1200-1500 dollar mark. One in Sun Valley for just $1000!

edwonger

Thanks for the suggestion!

edwonger

Oh sweet. I'll look into it. Thanks!

Alex33

Just an update on my situation. The repair shop pulled everything apart and said it all looks good, chain, tensioner, guides. No cause to replace anything at this time. Bummed they didn't find something, but they aren't charging me for the work so that is definitely a positive! They recommended I get a second opinion from another shop. Anyone have suggestions for a good and fair MB specialist in the Inland Empire area?

Sulaco

what was happening to make you think the chain was stretched? is it a rattling sound somewhere?

Alex33

Yeah, I'm getting a rattle when the oil gets to operating temp. I have heard oil pump, valvetrain and timing chain/guides could be the culprits but nobody is close enough to positive to tear into it.

DutchC54

did they do the cam timing check??
if they did they could have easy seen timing is off (or not) and your chain needs replacement.
u can even do it yourself.. timing tool for M113 is cheap and its not a whole lotta work to check.
just slide the "Brackets" in the area in the cam and see if they both fit easy.. if not pull a chain.
also not a whole lot of work. i added some pics with the bracket in place.
in the 1st pic u can see the place where it fits the cam.

Alex33

Stupid questions, but if cam timing is off, won't I get a check engine light and a rough running condition? Also, wouldn't there be some slack in the chain? Again, forgive me if these are silly questions.

Sulaco

this is making me really want to try the chain swap on my 99. it has crazy chain rattle at nearly 300k miles but I can't justify 1200 bucks to pay my guy to replace it right now.

jpowell79

out of curiosity how many hours labor are we talking to replace the chain and tensioner? My chain is out by 8 degrees (non-starter) so just trying to figure out if it's worth spending the money or scrapping the car.