ratmode

Totally agree with you. Talked to MB AMG mechanic and they can detect the slitest change, even if you remap ECU etc manually (not with a pre standard programming that some tuners use). He told me to get a copy of my stock ECU image on a USB so if there is any issues with engine you can role back to stock before dealer reaches out to MB in Germany(?) for further warranty questions.

HDTuning

I typed this long thing giving you facts as an engineer and you didn't even read it
I know how forums go where it's cool to have this mob mentality, but do you have a screen shot of an MB tool that says "tune detected, void this warranty" or something to that effect? I'm not guessing here, this is how I make a living.
Can I ask you what you mean by an "MB AMG mechanic?" Is it a technician that works at a dealer or someone who works on cars in their garage and really likes AMG's? This guy is saying they can detect a single byte change without the ability to download map data through the OBD2 port? Also what does remap manually mean, or pre standard programming? I'm not sure if it's your verbiage or the AMG guy but none of that makes sense to me.

It's your prerogative to tune your car or to keep it stock as the owner of the vehicle, but spreading misinformation just because you heard from some guy and it sounds right to you is doing this forum a disservice. I'm not trying to be condescending here so I apologize if it comes off that way, I'm trying to educate the consumers on this forum which is part of my job.

Lastly, any tuner can put you back to stock even if you didn't tune with them originally, it may give you peace of mind to have your "stock image" on a USB, but what are you going to do with it? How would you upload it? The cheapest tool you can buy from a tuning shop would be $5k to upload your own file when your tuner can do it for at most a reflash fee. These aren't subaru's where there is open source flash tools and programming, it is a very niche tech that has a rather expensive barrier to entry for a hobby tuner, your AMG mechanic friend may mean well but he is grossly misinformed.

Matt

Chaznik

ratmode

Im in to discredit you or you company, I'm just talking about facts.

First of all this technician is certified AMG dude at a AMG Performance centre, iow he only works with AMG cars at a reseller who specializes in AMG cars and the sell only Mercs.

Secondly, if you make any changes in any of the cars control units (about 50 different ones) it will show that its manipulated. In this case lets focus on control unit for the engine. Lets say that you have an issue with the engine, the technician connects the computer to your car (now a days wirelessly) and can instantly se thats something is wrong, they can tell that the code is manipulated. In those cases where they have to go thru warranty they need to connect to main computer so MB can verify that nothing is done to control unit, ex manipulated code. They will find out instantly and you will lose your warranty.
So thats why you need a copy of the stock code for example on a USB. Technician can role back control unit code to stock thats originally from your car and there will be no issues with warranty, because nobody will se any changes.

There is a big business in tuning and most firms use a standard stage 1 code and a standard stock code for specifik cars and model, example Racing Chip. It cost less both for the customer and the firm.
Im not saying that you are doing that, frankly I don't know. In my case a got a C43 that I have optimized where this firm did code everything manually just for my car, it tok them whole day to finish. I also have a USB of my stock code. So if there is engine failure I will drop it at AMG Performance centre and guys will role control unit to stock and then start to go thru the warranty process. So now I have approximately 450hp and 660nm, everything works smoothly and as it should. Cost for that was around 2K USD.

Chaznik

Slinger24

Either way, flash/chip/ecu tune...whatever you like to call it the warranty/detection issue seems to be an age old question for any platform. I've been fortunate to have zero issues with my previously flashed cars and at the end of the day, who cares? If you're really worried about warranty, don't get a flash or wait until the warranty is up.

The responses from HD on this thread have been extremely informative (probably the most informative) and if anything should provide piece of mind. If they can tune $200k+ cars then I'm not worried about ours.

waisoserious

A sales guy at an AMG performance center told me that their computers absolutely do NOT have a ECU flash counter. I said really? (We were talking about tuning) He said "if you want I can hook up your car right now and show you".

munis

There is no doubt in my mind that this is a good tuner after looking at the sound footage provided above. The burble tune sounds really good and dialed in, so kudos in doing an excellent job with it.

But like a previous member said, your credibility goes a bit sideways when you said the dealership cannot detect it. Try blowing a tyranny or an engine with a tune on the car (even if it is programmed back to stock) then go to the dealership and claim warranty. It will get clear really quick what the dealership is capable and not capable of doing. They do not have time for this for small drive train repairs like sensor replacement and stuff or for any other non drive train issues, but ask for a new engine or tranny and they 100 percent will delve into it.

Lets say for argument's sake that your have managed to make opening the ECU into "art" and leaving no traces, which is extremely improbable considering you do not have the sealing machine that Bosche uses for sealing it, and you cannot be possible machining or designing a rig just to pry open an ecu, otherwise I have no idea how you are making a profit selling these tunes. You are doing it in the same way other tuners are doing. Taking a plastic pry tool and slowly prying it open. Even if you spend 4 to 5 hrs opening it small bit at a time, when you want to reseal it again, unless you can apply even pressure across the entire bead, it will never ever seal like it was stock. An AMG specialist will take 5 to 10 seconds tops to notice the irregularities. And yes most of the standard dealerships have one or two AMG specialists at the shop which as it appears that you are unaware of. These guys specifically work on AMGs only and have an ridiculous amount of expertise when it comes to dealing with warranty claims like this. Ofcourse these techs will get involved only when you push the dealership to that point. But they are there.


But lets say you get in and out of the ECU without leaving any traces. If you think that AMG engineers, the people who design these cars are not capable of finding out if someone got in or out of the ECU programming then I have got news for you. The mark of a good tuner is understanding that the engineers who made these cars are far more capable and knows significantly more than you about the product that they made, so giving them the respect they deserve is very important. So how will they find out? The downstream manifold sensor will always register the end boost pressure of the turbos . You are assuming this peak boost is only recorded in the ECU, which you think can be cleared off ***** nilly. But that is not the case at all. There are multiple controllers and modules around the car. The engineers can choose any one they fancy which is connected to CANBUS and just record max boost pressure the car ever registered. Pull that data and boom, daddy is going to know about your dirty secrets. The exact same method is used for finding out if a car had a piggy back installed on it. No matter what you do, the peak boost is recorded in one of the modules, and there absoutely no way for you to know onto which modules are storing these information from the CANBUS, unless you take each wiring loom for every power train controller module of the car and test individually. At which point again, what would be the profit margin for your tune? Even Renntech does not bother with this kind of R&D, instead finds it easier to provide their own warranty on the tune.

Ofcourse at the end of the day, if you are reasonable with your claims ( like not going to the dealership to claim a new engine or tranny) they on 99% of the occasions would never delve this deep into the car. But know that they can, anytime they want. Be upfront about your product instead of sugar coating it to make it more attractive.

All burger tuning products for example states this explicitly that install this tune at your own risk. And they have till now sold the most number of tunes for this platform. Tell people about things the way it is, you attract way more customers that way. Good luck! Of all the full tunes, this looks really good so far.

GuardianVA

Having built and tuned with flashes, piggybacks and standalones, across multiple platforms in the last 20 years, I want to add just a bit of info on this, as I think there are two different lines of thought and maybe a misunderstanding of what is being implied about a tune being "detectable." The MED/MEV/MEC 17 series is pretty versatile, but in the end it's just the hardware and the various manufacturers program it how they want. Bosch, with the MEx17, added a "key" on the OBD side of things for any transfer in of data through the OBD port. For years it required drilling or prying open the ECU and either tuning "behind" the key ( flash on the bench) or disabling the contact for the key, unless you cracked the key "handshake" and could then flash via OBD (as long as you made the key handshake once, you could flash OBD). The whole reason Dinan went to a piggyback tune is because they refused to open ECUs and they had spent a fair amount on cracking the OBD keys for BMWs up through the E-series. When the latest gen ECUs (MEx17.2.2 and up) came out, then bit level on the key was doubled, and Dinan gave up investing hundreds of hours per model on cracking the keys to do flash tune via OBD. BMS and their JB3/4 were all so popular because they were cheap and offered an alternative to flashing, and it's one of the best boost controllers on the market.

Now to Mercedes. The hardware is the same, using the MEx17 series ECU. For whatever reason they have chosen not to log flash count, though it certainly has the capability. There are no "shadow" codes or "tuner" codes built into the DTC logging system for MB's ECU. I suspect that MB does not see it as a pervasive enough issue on their platforms, and they probably don't see it as being a major cost factor for warranty claims. It's all a cost/benefit analysis to them. BMW and AUDI see it as cost effective to impart extra security to prevent changes to the ECU. I respectfully disagree with the supposition by Matt@HDTuning that the MB ECU can't be flashed via OBD. It's isn't impossible, it can be done, as the MEx17.2 through 17.4 can now be flashed via OBD. But no one should get their hopes up, or reasonably expect that to happen. Is it worth all that for the relative handful of MB owners that want a tune? Probably not in the big scheme of things.

As far as a tune being undetectable...well, it's not that black and white, but HDTuning making such a claim shouldn't take away from their credibility, because in context it's true. They are correct that the tune itself is not what is detectable. HDTuning is telling the truth when they say that Mercedes can't just plug in to the OBD port and see "Oh, this car has a flash tune because it is showing code *blank*." What they can see, however, is the change in the tables, if they want to look. I don't foresee any dealer having the full capability to see the table changes with their equipment, but at the corporate level, they absolutely can, if they go looking. The tables are going to show changes from factory spec in boost at XXX RPM, timing, afr target, etc. I can't speak for HDTuning, or any other tuner, as they may also have access to the other tables like CAMTRONIC. A dealer tech that is curious enough to look and wants to log real-time data, can easily see logs for peak boost, a set frame of timing logs, peak torque/rpm (how do you think those nice readouts come up on the COMAND screen). If he sees those parameters logging outside factory specs and wants to really push a warranty claim, them someone from Mercedes is going to want to do some digging into those tables. Does that happen often? Well, I can't speak for MB, but it does happen. There are techs out there that would much rather make the non-warranty rate on a repair on a slow day, if that means digging, they may well do it. I've seen it on BMW, Mitsu, Subaru, Mazda, AUDI. Having the ability to flash back to stock map makes that essentially a non-issue. It also helps if you have the ability to clear out any logged DTC (diagnostic trouble code) for P0234 (overboost) or something else waaaay outside spec. Some tunes will hide these, preventing them from activating a "safe" or "limp" mode, but they will still be logged. This logged code can be set to clear automatically with the tune itself. If these codes aren't shown in memory during a diagnostic read, there won't be any real hint that there's a tune.

And you don't just "lose your warranty" with a tune or whatever else you modify. A claim for warranty coverage of a repair can be denied if the part to be repaired is associated with the modification. If you have a tune, and your radio stops working, you should still be able to get the radio repaired/replaced under warranty. Just know that it's not uncommon for dealers to make notes in the DCS system if they observe aftermarket parts. You may be in for an oil change, but if they see the piggy and note it in the service history, should you come back later with an drivetrain issue, they can then deny warranty coverage even if you removed the piggy, because they documented that it had one installed previously. I've seen this happen. Be nice to your tech(s) and be really nice to your service adviser and service manager...I've had them "overlook" aftermarket parts and cover things under warranty that could easily have been denied.

Piggybacks don't log anything to the ECU, that's how they are intended to work. They simply intercept the signal from the ECU to the sensors (and vice-versa) and alter what the sensor thinks it is supposed to see and what the ECU sees. With things like the JB1/4 from BMS, the ECU says the targeted boost at XX load is 15psi (it actually uses wastegate duty cycle, PWM, and other parameters, rather than pure psi at XX rpm, like Matt@HDTuning noted earlier), the piggyback intercepts that signal, and alters it to 18psi. The boost solenoid dials open the wastegate to allow the turbo to spin out 18psi, and there you go. The ECU never sees that the car actually hit 18psi because it receives and communication from the sensor (through the piggy) that its only opening the wastegate for 15psi. It alters the air-fuel ratio the same way. Timing...well, that can't actually be controlled by a piggyback, no matter what any piggyback manufacturer tells you. That is one of the most critical differences between a piggyback tune vs a flash tune. That's a conversation for another time however..

In the end, the ECU will never show an anomaly with a piggyback unless the piggy lets certain parameters get outside a certain spec threshold, and then the ECU will log a trouble code and you will get that nice check engine light. Even then, if you pull out the piggyback and take it in for service, they will never be able to see that a tune was the cause of the DTC.

You should know what he's talking about here. Manual remapping is going in and changing the set points in the table for whatever parameter your tuning, i.e. Boost target at XX load. Essentially, a custom tune for that car. Pre-standard programming...not the best term, but basically, the OTS (off-the-shelf) maps that are a set template that gets flashed. More specifically, for many tuners, they simply pull the flash tables from another tuner and tweak the work, rather than build and OTS from scratch. This was/is common on the BMW side in particular, as many of the N55 and N54 flash tunes out there use Cobb's work as a baseline and then claim it as their own.

With all that said, I appreciate HDTuning putting the time and effort into doing a tune for this platform. Each tuner out there has something to offer, and the more the merrier, as it gives a broader range of options, and competition is healthy for getting better products and services as well as bringing down prices. It sounds like HDTuning has put together a good tune, has a knowledgeable tuner working there, and has put in the time and energy to go beyond just the basic tuning and added little luxuries like burbles.