2019 C43 JB4 performance
06-16-2019, 11:11 AM
#51
pretty sure the 19 has bigger turbos - no wonder standard maps are not dong much - if anything
power delivery is completely different in the facelift - blow off noise - and many sources indicate such. Dyno charts also show the power delivery being different.
power delivery is completely different in the facelift - blow off noise - and many sources indicate such. Dyno charts also show the power delivery being different.
06-16-2019, 11:21 AM
#52
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Even mentioning that can start a crazy debate...Hahaha
06-16-2019, 04:11 PM
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
It may be compatible but it is not optimized. There is not a single 19, that I am aware of, that is meeting the numbers the the PFLs are. I am going to email Payam tomorrow and Terry to see what's up. Check out the What's App group. Opens the eyes!
06-17-2019, 12:21 AM
#55
Former Vendor of MBWorld
For 2019 models we've added the BCM which gives us a lot more control over boost targeting. Since they seem to run a little less boost from the factory this will help us get them over the top. It's on our site. 
https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showp...&postcount=769
https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showp...&postcount=769
06-17-2019, 12:33 AM
#56
Former Vendor of MBWorld
06-17-2019, 12:34 AM
#57
Former Vendor of MBWorld
The BMS crew is supposed to be working on a firmware update for the 19s. More to follow. On another note, BMS has released a Wastegate Control Module for the C43s. Link below.
https://burgertuning.com/products/op...control-module
https://burgertuning.com/products/op...control-module
06-17-2019, 01:51 AM
#58
Senior Member
Thread Starter
06-17-2019, 11:41 AM
#59
Member
For 2019 models we've added the BCM which gives us a lot more control over boost targeting. Since they seem to run a little less boost from the factory this will help us get them over the top. It's on our site.
https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showp...&postcount=769
https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showp...&postcount=769
Uhhhh, the 2019s are NOT running less boost from the factory....they're running more.
The following users liked this post:
munis (06-17-2019)
06-17-2019, 12:11 PM
#60
Former Vendor of MBWorld
06-17-2019, 03:38 PM
#61
Checkout the install directions here: https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showp...19&postcount=3
06-17-2019, 03:57 PM
#63
Yeah evidence just suggesting other wise - i remember this thread. power curves are way different. Mr. AMG cites different turbos. Tunes aren't carrying over and performing correctly.. not to mention way different turbo noise and blow off sounds. Power feels linear as the chart suggest - whereas the pre-facelift felt insanely torquey down low. i could easily put too much steering angle and mash the throttle to lose the tail end on the pre-facelift
https://mbworld.org/forums/c450-c43-...g-results.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c450-c43-...g-results.html
Last edited by alexasa; 06-17-2019 at 03:59 PM.
06-17-2019, 05:28 PM
#64
Member
As I mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I still believe the lack of significant change in performance in the pulls on the 2019 is due to the large throttle closures in the lower gears of the runs. It's clearly visible in the logs, and in at least one of the instances, it's plainly visible that there is a boost spike, and low-and-behold, a large throttle closure that corresponds to it. That's what the car is supposed to do when boost exceeds target. The power is there, that's plain to see with the higher trap speeds seen on the dragy, but the 1/4 miles times are similar or barely better than stock because of the throttle closures.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
06-17-2019, 10:29 PM
#65
Former Vendor of MBWorld
As I mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I still believe the lack of significant change in performance in the pulls on the 2019 is due to the large throttle closures in the lower gears of the runs. It's clearly visible in the logs, and in at least one of the instances, it's plainly visible that there is a boost spike, and low-and-behold, a large throttle closure that corresponds to it. That's what the car is supposed to do when boost exceeds target. The power is there, that's plain to see with the higher trap speeds seen on the dragy, but the 1/4 miles times are similar or barely better than stock because of the throttle closures.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
-Payam
06-17-2019, 10:32 PM
#66
As I mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I still believe the lack of significant change in performance in the pulls on the 2019 is due to the large throttle closures in the lower gears of the runs. It's clearly visible in the logs, and in at least one of the instances, it's plainly visible that there is a boost spike, and low-and-behold, a large throttle closure that corresponds to it. That's what the car is supposed to do when boost exceeds target. The power is there, that's plain to see with the higher trap speeds seen on the dragy, but the 1/4 miles times are similar or barely better than stock because of the throttle closures.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
06-18-2019, 12:17 AM
#67
Former Vendor of MBWorld
As I mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I still believe the lack of significant change in performance in the pulls on the 2019 is due to the large throttle closures in the lower gears of the runs. It's clearly visible in the logs, and in at least one of the instances, it's plainly visible that there is a boost spike, and low-and-behold, a large throttle closure that corresponds to it. That's what the car is supposed to do when boost exceeds target. The power is there, that's plain to see with the higher trap speeds seen on the dragy, but the 1/4 miles times are similar or barely better than stock because of the throttle closures.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
Electronic wastegates (like what's on these cars) tend to have a limited range of indirect adjustment (like across the canbus or through changes to other sensor inputs), before the chances of seeing oscillations and spikes of actual boost above target boost increase. That range is usually ~10-15% above stock boost. The higher stock boost levels on the 2019s probably magnify this limitation, because 10-15% of 16 psi is larger than with 12 psi. The boost control module add-on is giving them direct control over pid and wgdc and should keep actual boost much more in line with the target, and those big throttle closures should largely be a non-issue after that. I don't know if firmware will actually resolve it, I don't know how much I/O capacity is available on the JB4 board used with this car. However, even a firmware fix may not address the overboosting, as there are still limitations on the amount of finite control you get using indirect methods to control pid and pwm. The boost control module may be the only way on the 2019.
06-18-2019, 12:20 AM
#68
I haven't seen any indications 2019s are over boosting and to the contrary they appear to be under targeting. Let's see the log you're referring to. The JB4 records boost before and after the throttle. If throttle closure is causing a performance drop you'll see a huge boost drop in the manifold, to go along with a corresponding spike in boost before the throttle body, proportional to the closure.
06-18-2019, 10:13 AM
#69
Member
I haven't seen any indications 2019s are over boosting and to the contrary they appear to be under targeting. Let's see the log you're referring to. The JB4 records boost before and after the throttle. If throttle closure is causing a performance drop you'll see a huge boost drop in the manifold, to go along with a corresponding spike in boost before the throttle body, proportional to the closure.
06-18-2019, 02:02 PM
#72
Member
06-18-2019, 10:55 PM
#73
Former Vendor of MBWorld
In this specific example (CSV on the first page somewhere) throttle is closing during engine deceleration post shift, but the throttle is oversized and would have to close dramatically before it would effect manifold boost (e.g. actual performance). No such change to manifold boost is seen in this log. So this is normal behavior here. If you hacked in to the flash map and bypassed the throttle follower forcing zero throttle closure you'd get ZERO performance gain. With this specific example.
If you have other example I'm happy to look at them. Devil is always in the details.
Last edited by BMS; 06-18-2019 at 11:00 PM.
06-18-2019, 11:01 PM
#74
Former Vendor of MBWorld
They aren't. The problem I've seen on 2019s is less of a boost gain due to limitations in the factory WGDC programming. The JB4 provides a lot of tuning tools and data. But like anything the data is only as good as the analysis and a lot of non-tuners are trying to analyze the logs and barking up the wrong trees on making their cars faster, IMHO.
06-18-2019, 11:41 PM
#75
Member
They aren't. The problem I've seen on 2019s is less of a boost gain due to limitations in the factory WGDC programming. The JB4 provides a lot of tuning tools and data. But like anything the data is only as good as the analysis and a lot of non-tuners are trying to analyze the logs and barking up the wrong trees on making their cars faster, IMHO.
The following users liked this post:
robnyc (11-09-2019)
