BerBer63

Drove it home in C mode and don't plan on using it ever if I can. Now only have 260 miles on the clock

Car has to be in sport or its just no fun, just opened up the manual mode today to run the RPMs up past 5k.

I'm just avoiding WOT from a stop and if something breaks, I got warranty for 4 yrs, but I doubt it will be the engine.

wuyichao

oh noes, not this topic again.

to op, next time, use search please...

this topic is extremely controversial!

RNS-11Z

sorry, i did but couldnt find anything.

king360

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ak-period.html

Quadcammer

This is true, but they rebuild them often because the parts are designed for maximum power and maximum lightness, not 100,000 miles of traffic. If you've ever seen an F1 piston, you'll agree. Not to mention, these cars are driven at redline for hours at a time, which certainly leads to a shorter replacement interval.

That said, if breaking the engine in softly below 4500rpm produced the best ring seal, the best longevity, and the most power, they would do it.

Endurance racers don't either.

My point is, and will always be, that if something is going to break, its going to do it at half throttle or full throttle. Its not like something magically happens in those 500 miles that allows the engine to rev higher. Parts are not TIGHT, parts do not need to be heat cycles (not like 210 degrees would do it anyway), and aside from the rings, nothing will wear-in, in any noticeable way. If clearances are really changing, then you have some issues.

While I agree that its a good idea to be more gentle to the gearbox and rearend, and that changing the oil after about 50 miles is a good move, If you methodically break the engine in hard (in the link I posted above), you will have a strong running car with less blowby, oil consumption, and more power.

norb

Prove it.

Quadcammer

Given that there is not exactly a source of data that shows dynos of every vehicle in the world, with hard and soft break ins, but I know from personal experience, and the experiences of well respected engine builders that this is the case.

The mototuneusa website also shows quite clearly the differences, but it seems you don't want to believe that.

Im afraid that until MIT or Cal Tech do a study on this, you simply won't believe people who have more experience with new high performance, high powered engines.

Again, break it in however you want. No skin off my back if you end up with a Dud C63.

norb

Exactly, its just your opinion, not fact. Don't paly it of like its fact. Its not. Don't give advice to new car owners when you don't know the facts.

Quadcammer

lol, but you know the facts? The facts must come from mercedes benz corporate right?

Just like its a fact that there is no problem with 210 spring perches, or that the 2000 model 220 strut top seals were an awesome design.

Once again, corporate lawyers wrote the manual, not the AMG engine designers.

From what I have seen (at least 15-20 new engines), a hard but regimented break in resulted in the best leakdown, highest hp, and least oil consumption. This enough information for me to have an education opinion, especially since I have built more than one engine.

How many engines have you or MB's lawyers assembled?

Hans Delbruck

This argument does come up on every forum, and I'm a sucker for always putting in my .01

Even if there was enough data, on at least a handful of engines that followed different break in procedures, there are still other variables that may affect the performance/longevity/reliability of any one engine. How many parts go into an engine? How much variance is there from one batch of parts to the next? How does the builder come into play? Some factories dyno their engines before they even go out to the customer. Some engines are just stronger than others, and this is at the factory, BEFORE it even arrives in a customer's hands. (*I have not witnessed this in person, I've only read about it) So how do you remove that variable? The variable that some engines produce more HP, the moment they come off the bench, regardless of how the operator then decides to break it in.

Another point, the race engines I am familiar with DO have to be broken in. Yes, it is done within a few sessions (on a road course), but there is still a procedure, and it does not include redlining. Mostly it involves what I said... bring the engine up to temperature, run it up to a pre-determined RPM, and lift off in gear, letting the revs fall. Repeat.

Anyhow, it's a free country and it's your own car. I'm not bashing, just offering up my .01

Quadcammer

I agree with your post.

That said, the Mototuneusa website that I linked earlier shows that exact method (rev to certain rpm under heavy load, then let off, repeat, etc).

norb

This reasoning is flawed! What possible reason would AMG have to break your car in in a manner that will keep it from getting, in your opinion, less hp than advertised, in fact, in your reasoning the lawyers would "write" a way for it go get even more hp so as not to be sued for selling cars with less hp than advertised! Mazda was sued not to long ago just for this reason.
So try again.

Quadcammer

I think you will get your 451bhp with a soft break in. That said, with a good hard break in, you might get 460 or even 465.

The absolute VAST majority of AMG owners will never see a dragstrip or a dyno. They will drive it on the street, and not have a clue if it has 440bhp or 460bhp.

Once again, Im sure MB's lawyers have planned for every contingency, and telling every tom, dick, and harry owner that they should rev to 4,000, then engine brake, repeat 3 times, then do 5,000 rpm, etc etc, is simply retarded. They know most owners don't have the patience or desire to do that. Therefore, they come up with the method that is the absolute least like to do engine damage. That said, if you are worried about engine damage at high revs when the engine is new, you should continue to worry about it as the engine accumulates mileage.


Case in point: An RV manufacturer had to pay out $1.7 million when a woman who purchased a New RV put on the cruise control when on the highway, and then went to the kitchen in the back to make a sandwich, while the RV was still barreling down the highway. Wanna know why they paid out? Because the manual didn't specifically state that you couldn't do that.

These manuals are written for the lowest common denominator to understand.

Hans Delbruck

Whew, I found that too preposterous so I had to look it up.

Snopes is your friend. http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

Case in point: Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially about break-in "secrets"

For me, the main reason I followed the break-in guidelines was to protect my warranty. I speak from firsthand experience with Porsche and Lotus, and their ability and willingness to do an ECU "dump" (in Lotus's case, at your first service) that details how the car was broken in, i.e.: how high it was revved, how much time it spent at various rpms, even what the water temperature was... the ECU can also detect a clutch dump and it is logged. I am not making this up, my office mate showed me his printout. I have been in a Porsche dealership garage looking at a 996TT with a blown engine that was denied warranty coverage because of "abuse." I'm just sayin'..... if the manual says "do this" and you don't "do this", and MB can read the ECU... you may be on your own. As another poster put it, these engines are still breaking in after several thousand miles. Nothing wrong with following the guidelines for the first 1000 IMO!

Where's the beer, it's Friday.

LZH

LOL - Norb being a case in point

Norb - please tell us how top fuel drag motors are broken in....

Quadcammer

I guess you got me on that one, although you do have to acknowledge that this kind of stuff does happen.

As to your second paragraph, I agree that they can use it against you. That said, first you would have to have a serious engine problem, which is very rare on MBs. Secondly, the burden of proof would be on them to show that your driving at elevated RPMs and throttle openings caused the failures. In my opinion, if they were THAT concerned about early exuberance with the throttle pedal would cause damage, they would simply program a rev limiter/load limiter at about 4500rpm and half throttle. Simply recommending a certain break-in would be taking a huge risk if they really thought this would cause problems.

Again, do you think the person who did your PDI was ginger with the throttle? I bet he went WOT to make sure that there were no misfires, vibration, etc.

As for the Porsche, I really think they only have problems with Type II overrevs, which are obviously very damaging.

MADE55

If a "run-in" or "break-in" period was truly of absolutley no value then why would the AMG engineers even bother mentioning it? And if AMG is keen on producing the most HP out of a motor then why would they then recommend a procedure that some have suggested will actually DECREASE the output to a lesser number then the car is rated? That seems like a counterproductive move in a market segment where more BHP is considered a demi-god.

Plain and simple, it is critical to run the car at different speeds for several hundred miles to make sure that the cylinders, engine bearings and other parts wear evenly. By the stupid sticker on the windshield and the even more stupid words in the owners manual, the engineers have accomplished what they want, by default, and that is that they probably do make each and every one of us VARY the way we drive the cars for at least a few hundred miles. Yes it says do this for 1,000 miles (I think mine had a approximate symbol near the 1,000 BTW) and of course we all probably went above 4,500 RPM a couple of times here or there but that damn "run-in" thought process then made us back off, vary the speed a little, hold the transmission in second at say 3,200 RPM a bit then shift it 3rd and hold it again maybe. Admit it, you are doing it now or did it when you got your car in some shape way or form. All this does is VARY the speeds of the engine, tranny, differential so that the best possible meshing between all components occurs which cannot be duplicated on a dyno and David Winterhoff (who built my motor) certainly didn't have time himself to drive even a few hundred KM in my car and then the next one he built.

By the way, anyone else have his name on their motor - I think he did a fantastic job thus far

norb

Well since we don't own top fuel drag cars, but instead a production performance car, why should we give a crap?

You idiots are hilarious, comparing racing engines, dragsters, motorcycle engines to production AMG engines. I wouldn't take advice from internet posters, I'd rather take the explicit instructions from Mercedes Benz. All you guys don't take advice from these internet know it alls.

norb

That is utter BS! Prove it. Do you think the hp fairy will come and sprinkle hp dust on your engine if she see's you've totally disregarded AMG's recommendation?

norb

This is the type of internet hearsay that people perpetuate. And OliverK the term you're looking for is OWNED. Basically you can't prove that a hard breakin makes more power than the AMG specified procedure. You have to rely on internet BS to try and back up your claim.

Quadcammer

that the misconception though.

Nothing should be wearing at this point.

I would hope your main/rod bearings aren't wearing, nor would I expect much wear of your cylinder liners. As for other parts, if there was any noticeable amount of wear in 500 miles, Id expect problems shortly after.

Break in these days is pretty much limited to your piston rings.

Quadcammer

lol, a lawyer friend sent it to me. Sorry I didn't check up on it. Not to mention, these types of lawsuits happen every day, because lets face, a lot of people are morons (including some AMG owners). If you don't spell it out, they will **** it up.

That said, the BS story that I relayed was about ridiculous lawsuits and lawyers writing manuals (which holds), not about engine break in specifically.

Quadcammer

good lord you are dense. I've really tried to be pleasant, but your lack of knowledge on the subject is really starting to irritate me.

Part of making hp is compression. Compression depends on piston type, depth in the bore at TDC, cylinder head volume, forced induction (dynamic compression anyway), and ring seal. Since Hans and Franz are using the same piston, cylinder head, and rods, do you think that maybe how will the rings seal has something to do with final power output?

The better the ring seal (look at the damn link), the more power your engine will make, the longer it will live, and the less oil it will burn.

Hans Delbruck

Ever been to an NHRA event? They start it and run it in the pits (much to the crowd's delight, as they duck and cover their ears, it's like a bomb going off when they rev it) But they don't drive the "car" (it's all relative, isn't it?) They just go run it down the strip. Then (barring a blow up) they go back to the pits for the next run, and completely rebuild it. They take the entire motor apart after a mere 1320 ft (this year it is 1000 ft) Top and bottom end. A lil different than the service life of an AMG 6.2l

Merc63

We can settle this. I pick my car up in may. I will click it in manual mode and ESP off and leave half the tires on the street leaving the dealership. This car probably wont ever see normal mode.

I will get it dynoed after 3 years when I get rid of it and post the results on this thread.