BMW unleashes new M3 GTS
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From: Westmont, IL
2014 C63 Sedan
^THIS ARGUMENT IS GOING NO-WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!
in my opinion BMW is always about lightness and hardcore track performance, and MB trys to do the above at the same time keeping a balance of luxury and Comfort! so it all depends on what do you want?! My family prefers MB's over BMW's(altho we owned a X5, 528is, and 318 diesel in the 90's overseas) because of its heritage and veriety and all the things MB has been the first to achieve.
in my opinion BMW is always about lightness and hardcore track performance, and MB trys to do the above at the same time keeping a balance of luxury and Comfort! so it all depends on what do you want?! My family prefers MB's over BMW's(altho we owned a X5, 528is, and 318 diesel in the 90's overseas) because of its heritage and veriety and all the things MB has been the first to achieve.
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From: N.Jersey and New York, stationed in Germany
W164 ML500,SMART For two,1994 C280(5speed manual) 1999 C230k station wagon
I wouldn't put too much weight on that 7.45 lap time. It was done by Berndt Schneider, a professional race driver, whereas the 7.50 lap time for the M3 CSL was done independently by Sport Auto magazine with their chief editor at the wheel.
Good point. In fact, if you go here (http://www.fastestlaps.com/track11.html), you can see that Auto Bild magazine posted times for both the CSL and the CLK BS which puts them neck and neck on the Oschersleben circuit in Germany. Quite impressive when you think of the huge power advantage that the Mercedes enjoys over the Bimmer.
Good point. In fact, if you go here (http://www.fastestlaps.com/track11.html), you can see that Auto Bild magazine posted times for both the CSL and the CLK BS which puts them neck and neck on the Oschersleben circuit in Germany. Quite impressive when you think of the huge power advantage that the Mercedes enjoys over the Bimmer.
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PLAID
About the same amount of time it takes for a spec'd Miata!!
........and show of hands, How may of us have gone around the Nordschleife lately in our cars (or even Watkins Glen or Laguna???) I thought so??? In the USA, this "track" stuff is largely academic because in the land of the 405 and I-10, none of us is really going anywhere very fast. Its mostly stoplight to stoplight and the occasional run on the freeway up to 150, BUT that's about it!! Track, Smack, there ain't no stinkin track around here. We have no Autobahn, so really? Where you going? Into the ***-end of the Pacer in front of you??
Last edited by Newzchspy; Nov 10, 2009 at 04:06 PM.
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CLK63 Black Series
I would be interested to know how many of those people who live and die by Nordschleife lap times have actually driven around it or will ship their car to Germany to experience it first hand. Besides bragging rights it's pretty much useless, unless it's you, the owner behind the wheel. I take my car to the track, but mostly it sees stop and go traffic in LA. The most important part for me is the balance between street and track use. Real track cars are no fun to drive on public streets. I hope the M3 GTS is making it to the US, because I would really like to get one. However, after talking to some friends of mine in Germany, it's highly unlikely for a few key reasons. First of course the price. Like with the CLK BS, most will say it's an overpriced M3. Second, it's even more stripped of any kind of luxury than the CLK BS which narrows the playing field even further. Third, unless you are taking the car to the track to experience it's true potential, most will grow tired of it in daily traffic. At the end, there is very few real buyers left, which makes it financially unattractive for the manufacturer to jump through all the hoops to make this car legal in the US. That is why most of those low production specialty vehicles never make it across the big lake.
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01' C32o
[/U][/I][/B]
About the same amount of time it takes for a spec'd Miata!!
........and show of hands, How may of us have gone around the Nordschleife lately in our cars (or even Watkins Glen or Laguna???) I thought so??? In the USA, this "track" stuff is largely academic because in the land of the 405 and I-10, none of us is really going anywhere very fast. Its mostly stoplight to stoplight and the occasional run on the freeway up to 150, BUT that's about it!! Track, Smack, there ain't no stinkin track around here. We have no Autobahn, so really? Where you going? Into the ***-end of the Pacer in front of you??
About the same amount of time it takes for a spec'd Miata!!
........and show of hands, How may of us have gone around the Nordschleife lately in our cars (or even Watkins Glen or Laguna???) I thought so??? In the USA, this "track" stuff is largely academic because in the land of the 405 and I-10, none of us is really going anywhere very fast. Its mostly stoplight to stoplight and the occasional run on the freeway up to 150, BUT that's about it!! Track, Smack, there ain't no stinkin track around here. We have no Autobahn, so really? Where you going? Into the ***-end of the Pacer in front of you??
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From: Clifton, NJ
96 and 08 911 turbos
Is this a surprise? This a track prepped street car. It its designed to be a track appliance that you can drive to and from the track, not the car you sit in traffic in.
If you can't see that this car's purpose is far more focused than even the Black series, you may need contacts.
If you can't see that this car's purpose is far more focused than even the Black series, you may need contacts.
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From: Richmond BC Canada
C63 AMG
Hands down 458 Italia 4.3L V8 engine.
Well Mike, the 2.2L difference is what gives the M156 that small power/torque benefit over the S62, if I am not mistaken? You brought up the 4.3L V8 in the 458 Italia is a hands-down win approach simply based on the fact that it is only a 4.3L engine, yet it manages to produce oh-so-much power and torque. I think it is fair to say that despite different approaches, based upon high-revving V8 to V8 with monstrous torque based up on extensively large displacement; its fair to say that BMW has accomplished a lot with just 4.0L.
Also, some have complained that despite being stroked from 4.0L to 4.4L M division only managed a ~30kW increase. Well, despite the fact I know there is more to it than just merely quoting displacement differences, a M156 is 6.2L, yet it only manages to produce ~30kW more than the stock E9x M3's S62 output (disregarding massive torque difference).
Well Mike, the 2.2L difference is what gives the M156 that small power/torque benefit over the S62, if I am not mistaken? You brought up the 4.3L V8 in the 458 Italia is a hands-down win approach simply based on the fact that it is only a 4.3L engine, yet it manages to produce oh-so-much power and torque. I think it is fair to say that despite different approaches, based upon high-revving V8 to V8 with monstrous torque based up on extensively large displacement; its fair to say that BMW has accomplished a lot with just 4.0L.
Also, some have complained that despite being stroked from 4.0L to 4.4L M division only managed a ~30kW increase. Well, despite the fact I know there is more to it than just merely quoting displacement differences, a M156 is 6.2L, yet it only manages to produce ~30kW more than the stock E9x M3's S62 output (disregarding massive torque difference).
Theres a reason why people are not that impressed with the GTS's stroked 4.4L only making 450hp cause the E46 CSL came with a 3.2 making 355hp now thats something amazing. However I personally have no doubt that this stroked S62 gonna be one hell of an engine.
Personally I think overall the S62 is too much of a compromise, its too soft and too grown up. The S54 was more fun. Same with the M156, I am a raw power over high tech computer guy.
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From: L.A., CA
'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
You are the one with two Mercs in your driveway, a predilection for typing abuse at BMW owners and claims "Mercedes could build a better track car if they wanted to." Not sure if that's the definition of a "fanboy" but you won't find anyone around here that will accuse either CH or myself of being love-locked to one manufacturer.
Got to feel sorry for the few clued-up C63 owners, must be darn lonely in this section. But it's good for a laugh!
Last edited by Carl Lassiter; Nov 10, 2009 at 08:30 PM.
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From: Miami, FL
09' C63 AMG
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From: Richmond BC Canada
C63 AMG
They should have just put the twin turbo V8 engine that they put in the M-X6 in the M3 body... That would have been so much crazier and worth the money... Dont ge me wrong the GTS is a nice car, but I wouldnt buy... and BTW, we get more of a HP increase with just an ECU for $1500... makes no sense...
My guess is the twinturbo V8 would be too heavy and too big for the E92.
One of the biggest advantage of the S62 is its very light V8 that weighs same as the old S54 V6.
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From: L.A., CA
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Thread Starter
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From: Vancouver, Canada
R8
God, our perspective on things is so skewed nowadays. 450 bhp in a car weighing around 3,300 lbs is really quite a lot. With the right suspension geometry and high performance brakes and tires, it'll be quite the terror around the track. Don't forget that Porsche made its name in racing by producing small, reliable, and relatively light weight cars that proved power isn't everything.
Personally, I can appreciate the fact that most of us love our Mercedes-Benz cars, but surely we're open minded enough to recognize and commend another great car when we see one.
Personally, I can appreciate the fact that most of us love our Mercedes-Benz cars, but surely we're open minded enough to recognize and commend another great car when we see one.
Last edited by SebringSilver; Nov 11, 2009 at 09:53 AM.
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From: N.Jersey and New York, stationed in Germany
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God, our perspective on things is so skewed nowadays. 450 bhp in a car weighing around 3,300 lbs is really quite a lot. With the right suspension geometry and high performance brakes and tires, it'll be quite the terror around the track. Don't forget that Porsche made its name in racing by producing small, reliable, and relatively light weight cars that proved power isn't everything.
Personally, I can appreciate the fact that most of us love our Mercedes-Benz cars, but surely we're open minded enough to recognize and commend another great car when we see one.
Personally, I can appreciate the fact that most of us love our Mercedes-Benz cars, but surely we're open minded enough to recognize and commend another great car when we see one.
It seems that most of the time for the ring that the best setup is lightweight (well under 1500 kilos) and a shorter wheelbase.
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Porsche 996 gt3 cup, 09 Audi R8
dont mean to pop in your c amg section, but I do think that bmw has had far more balanced chassis and just a more exploitable driving dynamic than nearly ANY mercedes...we see it all the time at our track events. Actually, some of the best track cars overall that have showed up, (or that I have competed against...ehem...alhadeff/auberlen's turner...) are bmws. Even with the black series (incoming for me tomorrow!!!), I dont think mercedes has a competitor to something like this. That said, I dont think they should care...what other car has the mercedes luxury and "reliablity" and can be taken to a drag strip or minor de and then driven across the country with no problems?
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From: Richmond BC Canada
C63 AMG
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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From: So Cal
2018 E63S Wagon
I would say the C63's weakest area is its weight, and overall design. It's not designed to be a track car, wide tires or not Even the CLK BS is pushing it to call that a "track car" and that's a racy as a MBZ gets under $200K.
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From: Frederick, MD
'17 CLS550
I always get a kick out of the emphasis put on Ring/track times. They are good to know what a car COULD do --- in the hands of a professional driver. If 99% of us were to take these cars on any track stateside, we wouldn't begin to realize their full potential. This is nothing more than a dick swinging contest. On top of that, I'd say that 90% of the people that buy these cars don't even take them anywhere near a track.......and I'm one of them. I've owned plenty of "performace" cars and have been to the track two times. I buy the cars I own and have owned for fun spirited drives out in the country. Someone is always going to be faster. BFD. If you like more TQ then get an AMG, if you like high revving RPMs then get an M. They are both fantastic cars.
All things considered (looks, DD ability, power, interior, handling) my favorite is the CLKAMG 63 BS. Does it own the track? Nope....but it looks damn good, great fit and finish, has come down in price and has more power than I'll ever use.
All things considered (looks, DD ability, power, interior, handling) my favorite is the CLKAMG 63 BS. Does it own the track? Nope....but it looks damn good, great fit and finish, has come down in price and has more power than I'll ever use.
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Supercharged CLK500,ML500,S580
It's funny how many infiltrated BMW fanboys we have in this forum (which by the way happen to not even own a benz). So how is it "GAME OVER" for AMG exactly? $110k+ to tackle sharp turns in style with lets see, 30 more horsepower, enhanced BMW "unique
" track suspension, different body kit, a huge wing spoiler and a racing interior. If AMG really wanted to develop a track car to actually compete with this(in the same price range) they would of already done so. It seems that M and AMG are still very different in many things and each best at what they are made for and for the type of buyers they aim to attract.
I have a lot of respect for the brand (BMW) but their owners make me sick.
" track suspension, different body kit, a huge wing spoiler and a racing interior. If AMG really wanted to develop a track car to actually compete with this(in the same price range) they would of already done so. It seems that M and AMG are still very different in many things and each best at what they are made for and for the type of buyers they aim to attract.I have a lot of respect for the brand (BMW) but their owners make me sick.
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From: Vancouver, Canada
R8
Actually, I think a lot of you are making very good, reasonable points. My guess is BMW probably doesn't expect purchasers of the GTS to make it their only car nor their daily driver. It's probably intended to be the track car in their stable with very much a "track use" focus. So it does seem strange if we try to make comparisons of this car against most of the MB line-up.
That's not to say Mercedes cars, and AMGs in particular, can't hold their own when taken out on a typical track day. Put a reasonably good driver behind the wheel of an AMG and I'm sure you'll see competitive times on most circuits against other street legal cars. And you can go make a grocery run shortly after you leave that track, all in the same car.
I guess that's one of the amazing things about AMGs. As someone said above, few cars give you the performance, luxury, and everyday usability of the Mercedes-Benz AMG.
This thread was not meant to be a comparison of the GTS with the C63, nor any other AMG, though some of you deciding to make those comparisons is perfectly fine by me. It was only meant to share information on a great new car and to get feedback from some of the more level-headed auto enthusiasts on the Internet, which it clearly has. Thanks for contributing to the thread, folks.
That's not to say Mercedes cars, and AMGs in particular, can't hold their own when taken out on a typical track day. Put a reasonably good driver behind the wheel of an AMG and I'm sure you'll see competitive times on most circuits against other street legal cars. And you can go make a grocery run shortly after you leave that track, all in the same car.
I guess that's one of the amazing things about AMGs. As someone said above, few cars give you the performance, luxury, and everyday usability of the Mercedes-Benz AMG.
This thread was not meant to be a comparison of the GTS with the C63, nor any other AMG, though some of you deciding to make those comparisons is perfectly fine by me. It was only meant to share information on a great new car and to get feedback from some of the more level-headed auto enthusiasts on the Internet, which it clearly has. Thanks for contributing to the thread, folks.
