Savage-wp

This is looking promising.

MBNRG

Per Jerry at EC: "The cars have been adapting to the larger TB’s without adjustments. However, there is room for improvement in the 82mm tune."

And LSAMG's personal experience with the 82mm TBs without any CELs thrown corroborates notion that our ECU is smart enough to compensate for the increased air flow, as Barry pointed out. (Altho LSAMG has a V6 Tune, likely with some adjustment to map for BTBs)

Still, A/F monitoring at WOT would be a good idea, especially on cars already equipped with LTH.

BLKROKT

My TBs were delivered today.

If everything looks right, and if what MBNRG says is true (if it's from Jerry I trust it, thanks), I'll install this weekend. CAN'T WAIT.

No word on the possible GB. Our Russian friend hasn't come back to me on that yet. Will try him again.

skratch77

How hard is it to pop the manifold off to get the the tbs on these cars

BLKROKT

I have an Innovate wideband setup on my car. Will report back on before vs after WOT pulls. I'm a bit on the lean side as it is, so will have to pay attention.

MBNRG

Hey Jim, awesome news!
YES, it is directly from Jerry, he just replied to my email a few minutes ago!

And definitely, please post up Wideband results. We need to know if ECU can compensate with enough fuel to avoid too Lean conditions.
And THANK YOU for all this!!

hachiroku

so, wideband monitoring would be good, but how the Bosch Motronic works is it pretty much always hits target afr set within the map. what you need to monitor is short term and long term fuel corrections.

if your long term fuel corrections are more than 1-2%, your ecu needs to be remapped as the ECU is compensating with correction from what has been defined. the Bosch Motronic ECU's are so intelligent and fast that they can correct fueling on the fly to keep in line with target afr as defined within the target afr map.

the benefit of having an ECU this advanced can be witnessed with turbo vehicles. with this type of mapping system you can make a turbo engine feel like an NA engine as with the current model 911 "Carrera" (Turbo). additionally you can force turbo boost production in area's of the map where turbo output may not be in the most optimal for boost production.

additionally for those who are versed and have access to the right software, you can write in new functions like EGT, Launch Control, etc. the Bosch Motronic is more advanced than almost all standalones on the market. only difference is its not exactly compatible with any engine you install it onto.

Savage-wp

Nice. Shiny new toys to play with this weekend.
Interested to hear your thoughts after driving with the new throttles. And the results from your wideband.

Celicasaur

I'm assuming you're referring to the pic I posted previously before Photobucket decided to screw the internet? I'm not sure if I posted in this thread or if it was the other one....

But basically, mine was at ~-20 degrees (and registering wayward maf and fuel trim data) because it had an internal vacuum leak at the intake manifold from constantly bolting and unbolting (seriously, i need to post a pic of just how many intake manifold bolts i've got piled up in the corner of my driveway). Once I replaced the manifold, the car ran well with them and has been fine ever since (bar the phantom error code that came up initially but that could just be that i've got a fault from the second-hand throttle bodies)

Fuelling-wise mine is in the flat 13.0:1 range, pretty much as set in my last tune. I haven't checked my long term trims lately tbh, but perhaps I should do...

I'm very excited about this - if I can't get anywhere with a revision to my EC tune, then I'll end up going down this route to tune. I'll take my time and dial that VVT to a tee

BLKROKT

Here it is. Well packaged and a complete "kit", came with the following:

- 1 throttle body plate - looks to be machined out of a solid billet aluminum block (it's not magnetic but heavier than I expected). Edit: Eagle-eyed Ted just pointed out that one of the bosses isn't drilled and tapped as shown in other photos (upper left one vs middle lower one). Since I don't know what this could be for - to hold a wire loom maybe - I won't know if it's a problem until I get everything apart. Can someone confirm if this is going to be a problem or not?

- 2 82mm throttle bodies - MB part A2731410325 correspond to the 550-series TBs, look to be remanufactured and a bit rougher shape than I would have expected, one rattles not sure if that's bad or not, oddly neither TB closes fully and I wonder if that's normal for these (can someone confirm, I'm used to seeing these things resting completely closed)

- 2 intake manifold gaskets - MB part A1591410580

- 2 TB gaskets - MB part A2731410680

- 1 tube of black RTV

- 1 tube of blue threadlocker


Pretty pleased and surprised with how complete this package is. Will probably buy new bolts for mounting the TBs to the plate - not sure if they are a one-time use thing or not, but new ones won't hurt with some red threadlock to ensure they don't get ingested.

Will start taking things apart this weekend.







Here is one of the throttle bodies, you can see the plate resting at an angle and not fully closed. Is this normal? I think it is from other pics I've seen but not 100%.

Forrest Gump 9

Thats a very nice kit. That's normal for the plate to sit like that. The vacuum will pull it closed.

I recently completed my 82mm conversion. I just reused the stock plate. If you guys interested I'll make a how to thread.

Celicasaur

The vacuum will pull it closed.......? It physically doesn't go any further back though....unless I've missed something?

But yeah, regardless, it's normal for it to sit like that.


BLK - could you kindly share the increase in airflow before/after the TBs on a third gear pull to 6700rpm?

BLKROKT

Well confirming the part numbers was key, and I tracked down a screaming deal on new OEM TB's, and the timing was right, so they're inbound now as well. Will have these remanufactured ones up for sale soon if anyone wants them. Net/net it added to the total cost, but it still comes out to be less than 1/3 the cost of the RT or Kleemann options.

Would be happy to log the airflow numbers if you tell me how. My Autoingenuity software won't datalog, or I can't figure out how. Should I use Torque app for iPhone or what? Celicasaur what did you use for the above charts you posted?

skratch77

Glad you guys are doing this.can someone when the open there intake up confirm how much the stock tbs open going wot?

Like have a visual to see if they do in fact not open all the way.

AMGonFire

So the total price of that kit is what?? I'm curious what the actual gains are. Some dyno before and after would be great.

hachiroku

i would not worry about the current plate resting position. it is probably by default set at that angle to aid in starting of engine. once the engine has been started the computer most likely closes up the plate.

or the computer needs to run adaptations. not something i'd worry about until you've got them on the engine running.

Celicasaur

Yeah Torque should be fine. You can datalog with it. The pro version is slightly better and probably worth buying for the low price.

I used the free version of Torque back when I was posting the bits previously, but now I use the upgraded version.

When downloaded, you'll want to create a dashboard. I find the following useful:

• Timing Adv
• MAF
• RPM
• Throttle
• Intake temp
• Ambient temp
• Load
• Vacuum

When you have the app running (assuming you've paired it to your bluetooth dongle in the car etc) it'll start recording what's going on. If you can't be bothered to set up the process of proper data logging right away, you can use the dials for a quick snap shot, albeit it'll only give you peak values after your pull.

Disclaimer - ghetto technique incoming - don't drag me into the cage room:
It's got an orange and red marker to denote min and max values. If you cruise at light throttle and then stop it...when you check the dials, the peak timing value will be in the high 30's or low 40's...but that's because it stored the peak value...not the peak value for the part of the powerband that you wanted, ie 5000-7000rpm.

What I used to do to get around this (slightly dangerous so be mindful of your surroundings etc) is get up to a reasonable speed (100 is nice) and come off the throttle. While the car is decelerating, fire up the app. With a bit of luck, once you notice that it's awake and taking note (notice your timing should be near enough 0) you should be at around 35-40mph....stomp the pedal and redline 2nd and third then come off...take a screenshot before coming back onto the throttle to cruise) and take a look later.

The reason to redline 2nd and 3rd is that sometimes the TCU shifts the car at 6200 in 2nd (meaning your peak airflow wont be a true reflection) and you'll get more data anyway over two gears. Do this two or three times to work out what a reliable figure would be for your MAF flow in g/s (if you can kindly share your peak ign, i'd be grateful - mine is a tame 24 right now....need to fix this and get it up to around 27). This will be your 'baseline' for comparison of your big TBs.



You can of course ignore the method above if you set up the proper data-logging feature. But seeing as it's a bit of fun and setting it up is a bit of a pain, i figured I'd outline the method above for you. I'd love to know what a mid-11 second car does in terms of breathing and timing.


I've done this - while I wasn't looking at them from point blank range because i was standing near the accelerator stomping the pedal (with the car off), it certainly looked to be open near enough fully at a right-angle...if my eyesight missed a few degrees of opening, then i apologise in advance

FFS i had it hosted on photobucket....they really ****ed the internet man

hachiroku

when i use torque or ultragauge on all my cars i use

RPM
VAC/BOOST
TIMING
INTAKE TEMP
SHORT TERM FUEL TRIM
LONG TERM FUEL TRIM
AIR FUEL RATIO
THROTTLE POSITION

START MPG
LONG TERM MPG
LIVE MPG

MBNRG

From Russia with love, the BTBs in action, I believe this is a video from Oli:


Kinda tough to discern, but *appears* both TB plates may lay flat at idle. Unfortunately does not fully test to check max degree of plate opening

Celicasaur

Yeah no, it's the angle of the pic ^

I've done the same test on my own car. it sits the same as when it's not connected to the car. I'm taking off my intake manifold again soon so if somebody hasn't beaten me to it, i'll make a similar via and rule out all doubt.

hachiroku

man...i want big throttles. haha

MBNRG

If anyone has any leads to the MB Part #s for these pieces, would greatly appreciate it, as they do not appear to be on WIS/EPC:

1. 8 bolts total for the base of the 2 TBs to mount to Plate

2. 2 Clamping Ring/Rubber Donut Gaskets aka Velocity Stacks for the mouth of each 82mm TB (don't believe we can reuse the smaller ones off our stock 74mm TBs):



3. 2 Different types of Rubber Gaskets - 1 for the TB Plate in Red, 1 for the Clamshell in Yellow
4. 2 additional types of Bolts - 1 type for mounting of Plate Adapter in Green, 1 type for mounting of Clamshell in Purple:

BLKROKT

According to WIS the clamshell just takes RTV. Otherwise, yeah we need leads on the others above thanks.

Plus, WIS probably didn't anticipate that the TB plate would be removed, so there are no torque values for that either. Everything else in there is 9nm, so I assume it is similar.

Forrest Gump 9

The tb plate sit slightly open, under vacuum it will shut closed.

Went out for a test drive tonight. Mixed street and highway driving, definitely feel peppier than before. Pulls hard when wot, but just cruzing around you'll never know the difference. May be I need a tune to realize the power.

MBNRG

Thanks for your impression, Forrest.
Can you please comment on my post #122 above with photos regarding the Black Clamping Ring/Donut Gaskets aka Velocity Stacks (are you running with any?), and other parts needed for the BTB upgrade?

We would def be interested in your 82mm TB conversion using stock TB Plate