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Bigger Throttle Bodies, Please Comment

 
Old 04-08-2018, 06:10 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Savage-wp View Post
Looks good. Are you going to run a 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile to see if you trap higher.
Yeah Iíll get down to Atco on Friday maybe depending on how my work week goes. I want to be a bit careful as my tune already runs a bit on the lean side and I just added these plus the Renntech intake so I might be really on the edge now.
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Old 04-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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Wow
Very Nice..Sikky going in next month at our friend's place

Enjoy!!!!
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LSAMG View Post
Wow
Very Nice..Sikky going in next month at our friend's place

Enjoy!!!!
Thanks dude. I donít know if my way is the best or not, but RTV-gasket-RTV-Sikky-RTV-gasket-RTV is what I did. I donít trust these aluminum TTY intake manifold bolts at all anymore. What Iíd like to do is put some studs in the head and then really torque down the IM but not sure how much those threads can take or the IM itself. Iíll keep an eye on it for sure.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:27 PM
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What a nice write up

I love how tidy your velocity stack install looks (and I'm uber jealous of your RENNtech intake). Have you taken it for a drive yet?

I have to ask man....can you hook up your ODB thingy to it and let me know the timing and vac readings at idle? When you said "Idle sounds meaner for sure" I immediately thought, uh oh....because truthfully it shouldn't change in sound at all once installed. If it sounds meaner and chuggier at idle, there's a chance that it could be running retarded timing, hence causing the deeper note. It's hard to tell from over here and the youtube vid, but the note of the exhaust does somewhat bring back some memories. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if you pop out later or fire the motor, just monitor the timing (and vacuum + maf g/s if possible) but only pay attention to the readings after like 30-45 seconds of idling.

For reference at idle:
  • Good timing is 8-20 (higher being better - although mine tends to be 3-10, grrr)
  • Good vacuum is 17-24in/Hg (higher being better)
  • MAF flow should be around 6-8g/s
  • Load should be around 25-29
This ^ all assumed at idle rpm around 630rpm and closed throttle at 12.5% angle (ie, sucked shut, 13.7% is when it's shut but not super shut, if that makes sense)


But ignoring all that..have fun driving and don't worry too much about being lean. I doubt it'll ingest anywhere near enough to cause an issue and even then, the o2 sensors will very quickly get the motor on track for it's target WOT AFR. Let us know what the butt-dyno thinks of the changes
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:55 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
What a nice write up

I love how tidy your velocity stack install looks (and I'm uber jealous of your RENNtech intake). Have you taken it for a drive yet?

I have to ask man....can you hook up your ODB thingy to it and let me know the timing and vac readings at idle? When you said "Idle sounds meaner for sure" I immediately thought, uh oh....because truthfully it shouldn't change in sound at all once installed. If it sounds meaner and chuggier at idle, there's a chance that it could be running retarded timing, hence causing the deeper note. It's hard to tell from over here and the youtube vid, but the note of the exhaust does somewhat bring back some memories. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if you pop out later or fire the motor, just monitor the timing (and vacuum + maf g/s if possible) but only pay attention to the readings after like 30-45 seconds of idling.

For reference at idle:
  • Good timing is 8-20 (higher being better - although mine tends to be 3-10, grrr)
  • Good vacuum is 17-24in/Hg (higher being better)
  • MAF flow should be around 6-8g/s
  • Load should be around 25-29
This ^ all assumed at idle rpm around 630rpm and closed throttle at 12.5% angle (ie, sucked shut, 13.7% is when it's shut but not super shut, if that makes sense)


But ignoring all that..have fun driving and don't worry too much about being lean. I doubt it'll ingest anywhere near enough to cause an issue and even then, the o2 sensors will very quickly get the motor on track for it's target WOT AFR. Let us know what the butt-dyno thinks of the changes
Thanks dude, couldn’t have done it without your input here.

Ok I just went out and logged idle (574-613rpm) for 3:30 at full temp. Car sounds about the same as always, maybe the difference is the intake. I should have logged the before numbers I know. Not sure if I have the right PIDs here (couldn’t figure out vacuum obviously). I’m using DashComand. Thoughts? I’m pretty far off on MAF flow and load, and not sure if there’s an actual vacuum reading or not (by the way I got the MAP sensor wet when I washed the manifold - forgot to remove it - could that be bad now). Please tell me I don’t have to take that apart again....

Here are the log ranges (includes spikes) for 3.5min at idle:
SAE.SPARKADV = Timing advance cylinder 1 = 7.5 to 21.5 (typical range 9-18)
SAE.MAF g/s = Air flow rate = 4.52-17.61 (settled in around 4.75-5.50 with a brief period at 17.51)
SAE.MAP inHg = intake manifold absolute pressure = 8.3 to 10 (dead on 8.6)
SAE.LOAD_ABS% = Absolute load value = 13.3 to 18.8 (typical range 13.3-14.1)
CALC.VACUUM inHg = vacuum estimation = dead on -21.26

What else should I log and should I get a new app with specific Mercedes PIDs so I can get things like throttle angle? Should I go make a few pulls, if so what gears and RPM? I’m going to take a run up the street and see how she feels....

I see now now that I have an Excel log file with output from every single PID (edited above). What should I be looking for here?

Thanks for your help Celica














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Old 04-09-2018, 07:14 PM
  #181  
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We will be offering these plates with the Factory Angle for $600, Aswell as throttlebody pair for $400 with warranty, You can upgrade to 85mm for $600.

$1000 for plate and dual throttlebodies
$1600 for 85mm Throttlebody option.

We will begin preselling these next week.
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoryRoadPerformance
We will be offering these plates with the Factory Angle for $600, Aswell as throttlebody pair for $400 with warranty, You can upgrade to 85mm for $600.

$1000 for plate and dual throttlebodies
$1600 for 85mm Throttlebody option.

We will begin preselling these next week.
Is all of this with brand new components?
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:25 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by VictoryRoadPerformance View Post
We will be offering these plates with the Factory Angle for $600, Aswell as throttlebody pair for $400 with warranty, You can upgrade to 85mm for $600.

$1000 for plate and dual throttlebodies
$1600 for 85mm Throttlebody option.

We will begin preselling these next week.
What about throttle bodies on there own? are they brand new?
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:20 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
Thanks dude, couldnít have done it without your input here.

Ok I just went out and logged idle (574-613rpm) for 3:30 at full temp. Car sounds about the same as always, maybe the difference is the intake. I should have logged the before numbers I know. Not sure if I have the right PIDs here (couldnít figure out vacuum obviously). Iím using DashComand. Thoughts? Iím pretty far off on MAF flow and load, and not sure if thereís an actual vacuum reading or not (by the way I got the MAP sensor wet when I washed the manifold - forgot to remove it - could that be bad now). Please tell me I donít have to take that apart again....

Here are the log ranges (includes spikes) for 3.5min at idle:
SAE.SPARKADV = Timing advance cylinder 1 = 7.5 to 21.5 (typical range 9-18)
SAE.MAF g/s = Air flow rate = 4.52-17.61 (settled in around 4.75-5.50 with a brief period at 17.51)
SAE.MAP inHg = intake manifold absolute pressure = 8.3 to 10 (dead on 8.6)
SAE.LOAD_ABS% = Absolute load value = 13.3 to 18.8 (typical range 13.3-14.1)
CALC.VACUUM inHg = vacuum estimation = dead on -21.26

What else should I log and should I get a new app with specific Mercedes PIDs so I can get things like throttle angle? Should I go make a few pulls, if so what gears and RPM? Iím going to take a run up the street and see how she feels....

I see now now that I have an Excel log file with output from every single PID (edited above). What should I be looking for here?

Thanks for your help Celica
You're welcome man

Your numbers look great btw (better than what I see on my car). Makes me wish I bought/installed brand new TB units, rather than used ones, but I suppose it's not the end of the world. It's all a chain reaction from the flexibilty of the throttle plate motor thing. A new/healthy unit will totally shut under engine vacuum. This means minimal airflow for a low idle but timing will be in the high teens to keep it smooth (which validates that airflow is low) and this is all backed up by the low maf flow figure. I'd be willing to bet your fuel trims are good at idle and i can see from your pic that AFR looks nice too (mines a bit richer, like 14.3:1). So yeah, in a nutshell - you're good to go. How does it feel to drive? Any improvement towards the end of third? That's my next area to improve upon personally.

I wouldn't worry too much about logging anything else IMO. Actually.....MAF airflow in g/s on a third gear pull to redline. Be sure to change the refresh rate down to 0.1s on the ODB thing that you use. If your car ingests something in the 372-375 range, that'll be the airbox showing what it can do (I'm assuming you're on the V5 tune still). The highest flow figures I see on an NA M156 (without VVT tuning) are in the high 360's.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:27 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by VictoryRoadPerformance View Post
We will be offering these plates with the Factory Angle for $600
With the factory angle eh.........I know it's a long shot, but if you want somebody to test these to see if they flow better than the Russian/Kleemann/RENNtech ones, I'd be happy to fit them onto my engine, log airflow and then send them back to you.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:49 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
You're welcome man

Your numbers look great btw (better than what I see on my car). Makes me wish I bought/installed brand new TB units, rather than used ones, but I suppose it's not the end of the world. It's all a chain reaction from the flexibilty of the throttle plate motor thing. A new/healthy unit will totally shut under engine vacuum. This means minimal airflow for a low idle but timing will be in the high teens to keep it smooth (which validates that airflow is low) and this is all backed up by the low maf flow figure. I'd be willing to bet your fuel trims are good at idle and i can see from your pic that AFR looks nice too (mines a bit richer, like 14.3:1). So yeah, in a nutshell - you're good to go. How does it feel to drive? Any improvement towards the end of third? That's my next area to improve upon personally.

I wouldn't worry too much about logging anything else IMO. Actually.....MAF airflow in g/s on a third gear pull to redline. Be sure to change the refresh rate down to 0.1s on the ODB thing that you use. If your car ingests something in the 372-375 range, that'll be the airbox showing what it can do (I'm assuming you're on the V5 tune still). The highest flow figures I see on an NA M156 (without VVT tuning) are in the high 360's.
Awesome that’s a big relief thank you! Now I can feel safe beating the snot out of it. So I assume the low LOAD figure is also related to the TB plate being tightly sealed then right?

My fuel trims were pegged at +25 last time I checked (from the ROW airboxes sealing thread). Doubt it’s any better now. Do you happen to know what the PID code is for that, I can’t seem to find it in my log file (for that matter I can't find throttle opening %'s either...). Also am I using the correct vacuum PID (calculated/estimation) or is there an actual reading somewhere that I’m missing? DashCommand is great but I’d love to get my Autoenginuity software working again (on a broken laptop) with the specific Mercedes code pack....

AFRs were steady and between 14.41-14.93 for the log which is right on the money. I'll keep a closer eye on these logs going forward as my post-cat widebands hooked up to my Innovate AFR gauge are probably giving me bad readings.

Won't have a chance to do a pull until Thu or Fri night but now that I know how to log and get that nice Excel file with all the figures it’s easy. 375g/s or bust.

Last edited by BLKROKT; 04-10-2018 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:43 AM
  #187  
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Yeah, the load, timing and maf are inextricably linked to one another, so if one is off, the rest will follow suit. ie ,you wont see the same maf and timing but with load being higher etc

I've got one bank that's always a bit rubbish on fuel trims (around 10% LTFT) and i've been getting CELs lately. However the code I keep getting is P0036 - bank 1 sensor 2....which would indicate the post-cat sensor....ahem....oh the joys...)

I don't know Dash Command app at all...I used to use Torque (but now HPT as you know). There weren't codes as such, just simple names like 'Throttle opening %' etc - but yep, your vacuum thing looks correct judging by the units used (inHg) and the figure.

Looking forward to some positive results from that airbox over the weekend 375g/s or go home

Disclaimer:
I've seen a couple of OE tuned cars reach 370g/s at 6700rpm, hence why ~375g/s would be a good indication of the airboxes doing something, but most EC tuned cars tend to be in the 360's - no idea why though. Could just be a coincidence.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:41 AM
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Be careful doing pulls on the street.thats how I hit a deer.

good luck bro and everything so far looks good.just really wished you kept the rows on to see how much that 5 million dollar airbox adds lol.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:44 AM
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It will be really interesting for me personally to see if his airbox gets him to the ~375g/s range because then i'll have a reference point to validate my own airbox against, ie to know approx how much a good intake will add for this motor.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Celicasaur View Post
It will be really interesting for me personally to see if his airbox gets him to the ~375g/s range because then i'll have a reference point to validate my own airbox against, ie to know approx how much a good intake will add for this motor.
Ok. I did 6 3rd gear WOT highway pulls to redline tonight. First of all the car feels great. The new injectors and plugs have really smoothed out driving in all conditions. Coolant temp was 188 and oil settled in at 212 - the phenolic gaskets seem to be working as temps barely rose on the pulls. The throttle bodies are very noticeable. Very quick throttle response and I swear it sounds louder when they snap open. The biggest difference I felt funnily enough was just cruising on the highway and on gentle upslopes. It took almost no throttle input to keep the car at 80mph.

Now for the numbers. Best pulls (3) were all on dead on 353g/s at 6850rpm. Timing was 27.5. Air/fuel was 12.46. Other 3 I didn’t wind them out enough. I’ve got the latency set to 0.01s but there are gaps in the data (100-300rpm jumps).

My LTFT’s at idle are +21.5 for both banks.

Thoughts? I’m running much richer at redline than I previously thought (my Innovate DLG-1 widebands are in the secondary cat positions, after the primaries, duh) but that’s fine as it’s my EC V5 100oct track file and I don’t mind some cushion (it’s in the 12’s from 5300rpm up). I didn’t try the regular V5 “street” file but will try to get more numbers tomorrow. Car feels awesome but the numbers are lower than expected. My car is MBH headers to race cats. Maybe I need to remove the cats to get this thing breathing better? Also I don’t know how old the MAFs are that came with the Renntech box. I might swap in my newish ones from the Carbonio to see if they make a difference. Also need to change my O2s.









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Old 04-14-2018, 11:42 AM
  #191  
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4 more pulls this morning.
348g/s @ 7046rpm. 27deg timing. 12.11 AFR.
351g/s @ 7046rpm. 26deg timing. 12.36 AFR
349g/s @ 6662rpm. 26deg timing. 12.27 AFR
331g/s @ 6371rpm. 27deg timing. 12.85 AFR (traffic)

All pulls were over 300g/s from about 5000rpm up

Bet if I got that AFR up closer to 13 I’d unlock quite a few ponies

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Old 04-14-2018, 11:57 AM
  #192  
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Welcome to the club of data logging! What air filters are you using? Dont worry to much about your numbers because you are testing in higher ambient temps.

when I was testing it was like 15 degrees out so the air was way denser and was hitting mid 365s and I never got to log my 30 degree timing map.

I should have my car back next week and can give you my logs with the higher temps ww have now.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:22 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
Welcome to the club of data logging! What air filters are you using? Dont worry to much about your numbers because you are testing in higher ambient temps.

when I was testing it was like 15 degrees out so the air was way denser and was hitting mid 365s and I never got to log my 30 degree timing map.

I should have my car back next week and can give you my logs with the higher temps ww have now.
Yeah this is actually fun. As someone who has every 1/4 mile pass I’ve ever made mapped out on a spreadsheet for comparison purposes, this thing is right up my alley. This is a good start and I’m already getting a lot from this data, should have been doing this long ago. I just wish I had something more accurate without the data gaps and with more data points. Is there anything better that can be plugged into the OBD2 port and tethered to a laptop? The HPTuners might be worth it just for logging capabilities.

Midrange is definitely faster and more responsive. I should have hooked up my VBox for the runs. Also got rid of my half-throttle stumble along the way.

It was 65deg last night when I tested and 80 today. Same stretch of road, 10’ above sea level and barometer of 29.96.

Using clean aFe Pro Dry S filters.

Skratch what are your logs showing for g/s and what tune? I know you’re FBO but forget if you have the 82’s or not. Don’t you also have head work?

And how does the car feel on 30deg timing? This is my track tune and while 27.5 seems to be a good number, I wonder if I could get it bumped up to 30 for 100 octane.

Now I’m starting to realize how much more power can be unlocked with a dyno tune.

If it matters, my car full weight traps 122mph with this file (EC V5 100 Octane) before this last round of mods.

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Old 04-14-2018, 02:07 PM
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Unfortunately I'm in the same boat and looking for something that logs faster. What does help is if you select less things to log.like if you know your timing is good and hitting its target do a pull without logging it and just picking maf and rpms etc.

my latest run on the 30.5 degree tune is ment for sunoko 104 Oct race gas and was the first time running the file and I hit a deer right around 5000 rpms in my log.it felt really strong even on regular 93 oct but it was dead winter out.i didnt really get much seat time on that file but will follow up real soon. From memory I saw like 363gs or 368gs cant remember.

I'm on oetuning if that makes a difference but dont think it does.im also full bolt ons with fi headers that are basically the same as yours.also running 200 cell magnaflow race cats.

my car might have renntech 82mm tb but I have not confirmed it as the car was a renntech car when I bought it.it had tune badges and renntech car carbon airbox but the dealer switched the box out before selling me the car so its 50/50 if the previous owner had the TBs installed.

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Old 04-14-2018, 02:30 PM
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Here was my last pull before it happened I saw 305gs by 4800 rpms and 37 degree intake temp.

what are you seeing at 5k rpms?

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Old 04-15-2018, 01:35 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
Unfortunately I'm in the same boat and looking for something that logs faster. What does help is if you select less things to log.like if you know your timing is good and hitting its target do a pull without logging it and just picking maf and rpms etc.
Good tip thanks, Iíll turn everything else off.

Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
my latest run on the 30.5 degree tune is ment for sunoko 104 Oct race gas and was the first time running the file and I hit a deer right around 5000 rpms in my log.it felt really strong even on regular 93 oct but it was dead winter out.i didnt really get much seat time on that file but will follow up real soon. From memory I saw like 363gs or 368gs cant remember.

I'm on oetuning if that makes a difference but dont think it does.im also full bolt ons with fi headers that are basically the same as yours.also running 200 cell magnaflow race cats.
OE and MHP tuned cars seem to make the most power. I wonder what the secret sauce is.

Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
my car might have renntech 82mm tb but I have not confirmed it as the car was a renntech car when I bought it.it had tune badges and renntech car carbon airbox but the dealer switched the box out before selling me the car so its 50/50 if the previous owner had the TBs installed.
Maybe Celica can chime in, but I thought that stock TBs couldnít put up the flow numbers that youíre seeing.

Originally Posted by skratch77 View Post
Here was my last pull before it happened I saw 305gs by 4800 rpms and 37 degree intake temp.

what are you seeing at 5k rpms?
Iím seeing 300g/s at 5000rpm. But I have big jumps in the data, so the 300ís could be starting around 4800, I just donít know yet until I can get the refresh rate up.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:08 PM
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82mm throttlebodies are used but come with a 6 month warranty,

85mm throttlebodies are disasembled, cleaned, and rebuilt, as good as new. same warranty.

Originally Posted by mr747 View Post
What about throttle bodies on there own? are they brand new?
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:24 PM
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Here is a pull for reference. This is with stock mufflers with three 2.5 in piping. I have remus full exh sitting in my garage and will be the final mod to my car....well maybe supercharge it lol but I have put way to much into it staying na.

I can confirm my car does have the 82mm tbs.my goal is with the new exh yo hit 380gs per second!

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Old 04-16-2018, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoryRoadPerformance View Post
82mm throttlebodies are used but come with a 6 month warranty,

85mm throttlebodies are disasembled, cleaned, and rebuilt, as good as new. same warranty.
im sending you a PM
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Old 04-22-2018, 02:56 PM
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Just got back from my honeymoon, hence the delay to get back to you guys.

Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
OE and MHP tuned cars seem to make the most power. I wonder what the secret sauce is.
I really don't think there is much of a secret sauce other than them running the tunes a little bit harder.... I'm guessing EC run them very very safe seeing as they offer that engine warranty thing.

Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
Maybe Celica can chime in, but I thought that stock TBs couldnít put up the flow numbers that youíre seeing.
Looks like Skratch got back to us in time to confirm that he has the bigger TBs. However, I've seen a tune-only OE car in the ~380 range. Not consistently though....I guess with airflow flying in at supersonic speeds, there's bound to be the odd exception to the norm at times. From I normally see, our motors tend to be in the mid/high 350's range at 6700rpm.

Originally Posted by BLKROKT View Post
Iím seeing 300g/s at 5000rpm. But I have big jumps in the data, so the 300ís could be starting around 4800, I just donít know yet until I can get the refresh rate up.
Yeah, this is a PITA with the bluetooth ODB dongles...the chunks kinda make the data a bit vague and meaningless.
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