cyberorth

I have had the opportunity to drive a few flappy paddle equipped cars like the Gallardo, 360 F1, E46 SMG, E90 DCT and of course the beast. I usually pay little attention to the critics of the SS Plus and sometimes disagree with some of the opinions that are stated about it.

One fact is that the SS Plus is a sport luxury type transmission. MB has always stuck with the philosophy of maintaining luxury and comfort while compromising a bit on performance. An Exige can be a contrasting example.

When one chooses this brand in a sports car, there has to be a general expectation that he would receive a sort of a plush performance. Less 'plush' for say a BMW M and lesser yet for a lotus.

I am not saying that the SS Plus is a great transmission. I believe that it complements the brand best.

Point 1: Don't expect MB to put a harsh shifting transmission in this car. It wouldn't be a MB otherwise.

Another fact IMO is that despite its shortcomings, SS Plus is a continuously learning and adapting transmission. If I had eleven settings for it, you guessed it: I'd be on ten or eleven at all times. Having the choice in a selector button is nice, but it should not become a reference point of comparison. The SS Plus feels very sluggish at times but very responsive at other times, very much depending on the mood and aggressiveness of the drive. It is as if there is a mental selector of infinite choices of how aggressive you want the shift to take place. I feel that the SS Plus takes a lot of heat from its critics because it demands a different kind of input than just tapping on a button. If you don't give it the right input, it is bound to disappoint you.

Point 2: The SS Plus gets unfair criticism because it demands a learning curve from its driver and the average driver does better with a logical choice than an intuitive one.

I am of course stating only my opinion and am sure it may be disagreeable, but I respect others' just the same.

LZH

Drive it in M mode always and you will not have any of the adaptation problems you refer to. It will do what you want, when you want it to, every time.

MB_Forever

The problem with adaptations is that it sometimes forces the driver into a mode or setting that they simply don't want. For example, one can get stuck into a slow and lazy setting due to a few miles of driving in traffic or even cruising on long trips. This causes the transmission to shift slow, soft, and extremely lazy. The problem is further exaggerated when trying to re-obtain the aggressive setting again, as one would have to drive the car aggressively for a few miles on the street, but even then there is no guarantee that the most aggressive setting will be reached. Manual mode, for the most part, alleviates some of those issues; however, it would still be great if AMG would provide a button or a setting that when selected, the transmission would deliver maximum output or performance: quickest/fastest/firmest shifts possible. The AMG button was introduced in the SL63 almost two years ago and now the W212 E63 has it as well. However, even when that button is pressed, the car will only shift at 100 ms in manual mode. In any other mode, the car will shift at 120 ms or slower.

CPD SLK

+1

benyl

The tranny in my 335i is much more responsive at all times than the SS+ in my C63. My 335 however doesn't have 500hp... haha

LZH

Manual mode gets rid of ALL those issues. The only thing that is still "adapted" if you will, is part throttle shifts. In manual mode, the shift speed and firmness is changed under part throttle upshifts. Other than that, there is no adaptation in M. I'm not sure why so many people are intent on driving in C or S mode when you have to use your right foot to downshift

PC Valkyrie

It doesn't have to be a "harsh shifting transmission" to be more sporty yet versatile. The modern dual clutch gearboxes (namely from Porsche and from BMW M) can be extremely quick shifting when needed to be, while being perfectly smooth and comfortable when called upon in automatic mode.

The classic torque converter automatic transmission is going to be phased out eventually. It is already dead if you look at all the high end performance cars. Look at Porsche, BMW M, Audi S, Ferrari, etc. Even within AMG, the newer cars are all coming out without torque converters.... either the MCT (SL63, E63, newer S63) or the dual clutch setup (SLS).

As good as the AMG Speedshift torque converter transmissions are, they simply do not have the same performance when it comes to shift speeds as the PDK's, M-DCT's, DSG, etc, etc.

MB_Forever

In my opinion, manual mode is not very optimum when racing in a straight line mainly because of the infamous variable delay that occurs during up-shifts. For example, when flooring the car in manual mode, the time it takes the car to shift from the moment you hit the paddle to the completion of the shift actually varies for some strange reason. This makes it difficult for a driver to time their shifts for optimum results, which is a handicap when trying to beat the computer in shifting. But even if manual mode offered perfect shifting without delays, some people will still prefer driving in auto mode, so why not offer an "optional" button that delivers maximum performance just like what's offered on the M cars. When the M button is pressed, the computer will provide the most aggressive and optimum settings for the ECU/engine power output, transmission shifts, differential, and suspension. And it would not matter what type of driving you were doing before that button was pressed. Of course, if the button was not pressed, then the tranny would use adaptations as it normally would

LZH

Sure, but that assumes the driver has very little skill and/or has not had much time getting used to the car. With that being said, I will direct your attention to the following thread that should put to bed any discussion about S or C mode being faster than M. And for the record, these tests were done for straight line acceleration only:


https://mbworld.org/forums/clk63-bla...t-results.html


.

MB_Forever

I'm not assuming the driver has very little skill. Even for a skilled driver, the variable delay makes it hard to time the shifts. For example (and this is just an example), if you were trying to shift at 7000 rpm and you know that the tranny takes 1/2 a second to shift, then you would do your best to time the shift exactly 1/2 second before 7000 rpm in order to maximize your run. However, if the tranny ends-up taking a full second to shift one time, then you end-up red-lining and if the tranny ends up taking a 1/4 second to shift, then you end-up shifting too early. In essence, it becomes more of a guessing game that depends on the mood in which the tranny was in during the test.

Regarding the above thread, Jim compared the upshifts of manual mode vs the downshift + upshifts of Sport mode. Unless the downshift can be performed in zero seconds, manual mode is clearly expected to be faster especially since the downshifts were not included in manual mode. I completely understand and agree with those results since if I was driving in S mode and the tranny was in 6th gear, then the tranny would have to downshift before upshifting again during a test run, which takes extra time. In contrast, manual mode would only have to upshift (no downshifting involved unless of course, manual mode was started in a higher gear in which case it would have to downshift as well).

I was more interested in comparing upshifts only for straight line acceleration. To do this, we would have to start both mods in the same gear then time the run. For instance, lets compare these two runs:

- First run: from a stand still, we set the trans to M1 mode. Then we try to accelerate as fast as possible to 100 mph up-shifting manually.

- Second run: from a stand still, we set the trans to S1 mode. Then we try to accelerate as fast as possible to 100 mph up-shifting automatically.

I'm guessing sport mode will be consistently quicker even with a skilled driver behind the wheel when in manual mode. Moreover, the comparison doesn't have to be from a dead stop; we could just as well start in second gear or third gear when doing the runs: S2 vs M2 or S3 vs M3 modes and so on. Unfortunately, I think the sport mode will still outperform manual mode most of the time. I like these kind of tests because it allows us to compare up-shifts from both modes directly (without counting downshifts at all).

Mercedes states that manual mode is 20% faster than sport mode (at least) in up-shift times. However because of that inconsistent delay in manual mode, it becomes very hard to take advantage of that extra speed. I have tried manual mode countless times at the 1/4 mile but was not able to reach the same time I reached in sport mode. I have also had at least 5 other drivers try the same thing, some of which are much more skilled than and much better drivers in every way than I am, but they still couldn't beat their own best time which they hit in sport mode. Things are further complicated when adaptations are introduced into the mix. When I compared S1 mode after aggressive driving, I got a different result than when I ran S1 mode after "lazy" driving In my opinion, all this could be avoided by providing a button that is able to provide maximum/optimum setting when pressed and regular Mercedes adaptations when depressed.

cyberorth

Now you say that L, but let me see a show of hands: In M mode the car(C63) very much responds to throttle position and 'sporty' driving in terms of speed and intensity of shifts.

cyberorth

Are you saying that one would have to drive at WOT to get rid of the adaptive memory?

LZH

As I said in post #6, M mode will change shift firmness and speed based on throttle position.

emericr

I agree that our transmission is inferior to the double clutches out there in the Audis and the BMWs. Our transmission just simply cannot be ordered to shift down two gears (let's forget about three) quickly. It has to go down one, blip throttle, go down one more then blip again.
With a tune, our transmission makes harsh shifting when applying a good amount of throttle in manual mode and it takes away the MB plush image. Some of my passengers have even stated if the car was acting normally because the shift was so abrupt. It reminds me of the SMG on my E46 and that is a pleasant memory. Even S mode is barely acceptable if you hit the throttle more than 1/2.
I agree with most that an AMG button makes total sense but still will not change the fact that our transmission is obsolete.
I have not driven a tuned M3 or GTR to know if the silky smooth DCT has changed behavior and would welcome some feedback.

LZH

You keep referring to this “variable” or “inconsistent shift delay” when using M mode. While I agree that there is a delay, you need to understand something….The only reason that you sense a delay in shifts, is because in M mode, you are the one telling the transmission when to shift – not a computer – thus there will be some delay between when you hit the paddle and when the transmission actually completes the shift. However, the same delay exists in S mode…you just don’t feel/sense it, because a computer sends the upshift command – not your finger.
I understand what you are getting at, but what you are describing is a non event in terms of which transmission mode is actually faster. Sure, a computer will always be faster and more consistent than a human….but by allowing a computer to make your shifts for you, you have to be in S mode – which you yourself stated above is 20% slower than M mode, a figure published by the factory.
You say above that you are “not assuming the driver has very little skill”. But you then go on to say that you have let even more skilled drivers than yourself try to beat S mode and they cannot. Well that begs the question….How was Jim Brady able to beat S mode in the tests he performed (numerous times)?? It’s my belief that skill actually IS the determining factor. Sure, it takes some time and practice to get it right, but it’s pretty clear that Jim nailed it and proved that when done properly, M mode DOES yield faster times. I’m not sure how you can refute that as the numbers speak for themselves. And while I agree that getting the shift perfect in M mode is a bit difficult, I would say that this is only the case for the 1-2 upshift as the 63 motor revs so quickly. However, that can be alleviated by simply starting from a dig in S mode, allowing the computer to make the 1-2 upshift then changing over to M mode while in second gear and making all remaining shifts manually. That’s what I’ve done when racing from a dig and it seems to work pretty well. But when doing highway pulls say from 60-130, M mode is always faster, at least for me. YMMV.

PC Valkyrie

LZH, the test that Jim did was the following:

S mode test: cruising at 60mph in S mode, with the transmission in 6th or 7th gear, then full throttle with kickdown until 120mph. The transmission has to downshift to 3rd gear (probably), and then upshifts as necessary automatically.......result was 8 seconds or more.

M mode test: car manually put into 3rd gear while travelling at 60mph, then full throttle, and Jim manually upshifting as necessary until 120mph....best result was 7.9 seconds.

All this test showed was how important it is to be in the right gear for optimal acceleration when cruising at 60mph. It is impossible to conclude from this test whether the automatic upshifts in S mode or the manual upshifts in M mode results in faster accleration times.

If you want to do this properly, then do the following:

S mode test: While travellling at 60mph, put transmission in S mode, and then hold the left paddle down for 1-2 seconds so that the computer downshifts to the best optimized gear for acceleration (probably 3rd gear). The timing starts when you floor the throttle (while in 3rd gear) until 120mph, allowing the computer to upshift automatically (you are STILL IN S MODE).

M mode test: Do exactly as what Jim did above and start the timing when you floor the throttle (while in 3rd gear).

Then compare the acceleration times. This is the only way to see if a "skilled" AMG driver can accelerate faster in M mode compared to the computer in S mode.

Another thing you can do to answer another aspect of this question: compare laptimes around a track.......this is more straightforward.....do hotlaps in S mode and M mode on the same day and same track and compare the laptimes. I've done this in my C55 on a high speed track (Mosport), and I'm faster when the transmission is in S mode.

Remember, this is not about whether the transmission is shifting faster in M mode or S mode. MB states that the newer models do shift faster in M mode than in S mode. That is not what is in dispute. What some people are saying is that the computer is better than the human in timing the upshifts/downshifts relative to the rpm's, such that it may negate the slightly faster shift speeds in M mode.

Questions

I wish for this as well. The adaptations are a weakness if we can't turn them off.

cyberorth

Yes agreed, but that means you pretty much have to floor it every time. You can't very well do that in a 500hp car on street surface.

I think it is fair to expect a bit better than that.

By the way my original post is to compliment MB and the transmission not to talk it down.

cyberorth

Nope. you better read up on this.
Hint: pull and hold.

AMGC60-3

German news reported several days ago tha MB is developing and working on a new 9 speed tranny......

emericr

cyberorth: I am fully aware of the hold the paddle but it still goes down one by one. It is painfully slow. While you hold the paddle, you can hear the engine go down and rev up on every gear.

maximooz

I recall having read that one of the MB reps had mentioned that the Nurburgring times were no different in S or M mode. Anyone heard the same?

MB_Forever

Hmmm.... I understand what you are saying and you are probably right. It's just that most of the times that I've done that test, after pressing the paddle, I felt that sometimes, the tranny would shift instantly while at other times, the tranny would take a little bit longer to shift. I also felt this same "variable" delay on a CLS63 and a C63 on the track. I'm not sure what factors/formula the computer uses to execute the shift and if it differs with every ****, but I know I felt the delay on numerous occasions. In comparison, when I drove an M6, the shift times seemed instant all the time (when in M mode). I will definitely do some more testing and see how it goes

Jim's test included a downshift in one mode but didn't include it in the other mode so unless the additional downshift takes 0 seconds, the mode without the downshift should always be faster. It'd be nice if we could re-do the test and compare ONLY up-shifts from both modes.

That is very interesting. I would've thought changing tranny modes at WOT would slow you down a bit. Did you feel any delays?

SMP

MB_Forever, the shift modes don't change when in M mode in the M6. It gives you the 500 HP. But you can program suspension settings, shift modes and 500 HP mode into the M button on the steering wheel. It also depends on how high you rev the engine. The higher the RPM's, the quicker the shifts. If you want the quickest shifts, it has to be in S6, which requires the traction control to be turned off. This setting cannot be programmed into the M button. If TC is turned off and S6 is selected, it will default back once you turn the car off.


Edit: Even the SMG is adaptive. For instance, after my wife drove the car, it shifts quite sluggish and doesn't go into first gear when you come to a stop. I have to pull on the down shift paddle 3 times to get it into first, until the car recognizes a more aggressive driving style and adapts to it.

MB_Forever

Thanks for the clarification. I only drove the M6 twice and both times were at the track and under WOT. I don't know what setting my friend had the car in, but it shifted (noticeably) much faster than my car (and seemed more consistent); DCT on the M3 was even better.

I understand adaptations offer a more comfortable drive when in luxury mode, and I'm in no way saying Mercedes should cancel it, I just wish AMG would provide a button that would stop adaptations and provide maximum performance only when pressed. That way, the user can select the setting he/she wants when needed without having to worry about resetting previous adaptations at the track or on a road course.