Sonny@Marranos

As requested by many members here,i did a little comparisson between a my2008 to my 2010.The my2008 was a c63 i did round 3months ago,the mods the my 2008 had was as follows,


- 1 3/4 long tube headers
- 3inch 200cell cats
- Dual 3inch mid section
- Rear silencers
- 2 x k&n filters
- Custom ecu re map

- It made a heathly 317rwkw's/423rwhp,,where as the my2010 made 333rwkw's/446rwhp with just tune/set of k&n's & front section of exhaust pipes enlarged.We still dont know exactly why the my2010 appears to have more power then the earlier models,can anyone throw any life to why the late model cars might appear to have more power then the earlier ???? At first i thought it may have been my dyno out of calibration,but i had mainline check it and it was spot on,further thinking encouraged me to run this my2008 i did round 3months ago,it made 316rwkw after the mods,today it made, 3months later 317rwkw/423rwhp,this justify's to me that my dyno is spot on.I have displayed some timing data in the video below that may be a possibility,but we dont know for sure,but if you look at the graphs,the my2010 makes as much as a c63 with a full exh/tune/k&n's & more in the top end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lobma86OZT0




regards sonny

SonnyakaPig

Very interesting.

Does this 2010 C63 have the P31 package?

I was told that my stock 2009 C63 advanced 21.5 degrees at WOT. So, that's interesting that my 2009 has different timing than 2008 (which appears higher) and the 2010 (which appears lower).

My timing advance was measured through OBD 2 port when it was on the dyno.

The 3" midpipes that you are using, do they begin after the first cat and replace the second cat and the rest of the piping until the factory x-pipe/resonator?

ZephyrAMG

I don't know much, but in July I got a brand new MY 2010 and traded my MY 2009 and my MY 2010 (same options except camera) feels much slower and less "charged" than my MY 2009 which was an animal with a far better kick off the line...

Powerchip

The P31 is not available in Australia, and we have checked the software very closely, it's 100% not related to something as simple as throttle opening map changes. We will confirm more map related data when we read and dyno the P31 car in socal.

The way ignition timing works on the 63 engines is very complex, and it also varies by RPM. Other factors such as intake air temperature and even the ambient air temperature sensor readings then determine what request is delivered to the coil.

It's normal to see variation with ignition timing measured at the OBD2 port depending on the brand of dyno and cooling issues like heat soak (how long left to cool down between each run) or small fans or 91 Cali gas

Sonny@Marranos

Oki guys,

I have overlayed that 2008 c63 and the 2010 ,both in stock form

[IMG][/IMG]

SonnyakaPig

Ahh, good to know.

In perfect conditions, what should fully advanced timing be for a C63 at WOT?

SonnyakaPig

Are the AFR's the same for the MY2008 and MY2010?

The Paisan

Why does the 2010 have 12 cylinders v. 8 for the 2008?

-mike

Powerchip

Its too hard to simplify into broad brush answer in XX.X degrees

And the ignition advance changes based on RPM, and at times when it is not at Wide Open Throttle (WOT), it also changes based on load.

There are so many factors that determine what ignition timing the car runs it would be too long to list them, I listed a few above like intake air temperature and ambient air temperature

There are also multiple ignition advance maps with ideal values, and minimum values.

I will get a tech to post an image of one of the timing maps so members get a broad idea of what one of the timing maps looks like visually

Its important to note that just because the map image we post contains numbers and is scaled to relate to degrees of ignition advance, it does not mean that that is what ignition advance the car actually runs in practice

With the introduction of 'torque based architecture' on Bosch and Siemens ECU's the days of just adjusting ignition advance and air fuel ratios by a simple percentage ended about 10 years ago.

And in practice, you don't need to worry about ignition advance on our 91 octane upgrade. We don't advance the ignition timing on full throttle on our 91 octane upgrade over stock.

Ignition advance isn't the secret to making power on a C63 on 91 octane, it is set perfectly by Mercedes.

SonnyakaPig

I understand that ignition advance depends on many factors, bit it is common for people to speak about timing in terms of the amount commanded at WOT.

Given what you said about it being difficult to pin down how much timing is actually advanced, I guess I can make my question more specific.

Based on the many maps that you've seen for C63's, how much timing does MB command at WOT in 2nd gear at 6000 rpms?

I respect the fact that you don't alter MB's ignition timing. Knowing that commanding more timing than stock is not the secret to large power gains on a newer N/A car, what is the maximum timing that you have seen commanded in a stock C63?

I understand that what is commanded and what is actually advanced depends on many environmental and mechanical variables, some of which you previously mentioned. But I still would like to know if my car advanced full timing (compared to what stock C63's are tuned/commanded for) when I dynod it.

An example of what I'm asking is, when my previous car was being tuned, we were having some heat soak issues and high IAT's so my car was not advancing the full amount of timing that was being commanded at WOT. My tuner told me what he was commanding and what was actually being advanced.

Powerchip

Based on the many maps that you've seen for C63's, how much timing does MB command at WOT in 2nd gear at 6000 rpms?

Firstly, the C63 does not use an ECU that changes based on being in a specific gear, it changes it based on load (and other factors).

So some of the effects on load might be the gradient of the road, ie is it a flat road or going up a hill, and the mass of the vehicle, ie solo driver, or four 200lb passengers

The temperature related factors need to be considered, is it a 60 degrees F or 110 degrees F outside temperature.

The intake air temps then change, and so do the coolant temperature readings

It is just too complex and there are too many factors to try to calculate what is requested in theory and what is delivered in practice.

Even if it was easy to explain how it is calculated, we wouldn't release the information to the public because it has the potential to give competitors information that they might not have.

So instead, I will provide a formulae for how spark is calculated on a late model domestic US Ford with a Visteon ECU

Borderline Knock Table + Spark Adder to Borderline for IMRCS + Spark Adder for a/f When Open Loop + (Spark Retard ECT multiplier times Spark Retard for ECT) + (Spark Retard ACT multiplier times Spark times Spark Retard for ECT) + Spark Retard ACT Multiplier times Spark Retard for ECT) + [various camshaft maps] + Octane Spark Multiplier = Spark

Our competitor, Dinan Engineering have written an excellent white paper that explains many factors that will help you to understand the complex issues surrounding testing on a dyno. (It contains a 'dig' at Powerchip but I won't let that get in the way of the sections about temperature related effects on vehicle testing that are sound and well written)

http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technia...ern-bmw-engine

I respect the fact that you don't alter MB's ignition timing.

Thats not exactly what I said

Your statement is a bit of an oversimplification but I know it was not intentional. What I did say was that our 91 octane upgrade FOR THE C63 does not advance ignition timing ON FULL THROTTLE. I didn't include reference to full throttle our 93 octane upgrade, or to what we do on PART THROTTLE on either 91 or 93 octane.

What I said has little relevance on a broad brush statement like a"newer N/A car", our experiences above only apply to the Mercedes 63 engines

And on almost every other Mercedes Benz 'non 63' engine we DO add ignition timing, even on turbo and supercharged engines, and even on cali 91 octane fuel

Knowing that commanding more timing than stock is not the secret to large power gains on a newer N/A car, what is the maximum timing that you have seen commanded in a stock C63?

I understand that what is commanded and what is actually advanced depends on many environmental and mechanical variables, some of which you previously mentioned. But I still would like to know if my car advanced full timing (compared to what stock C63's are tuned/commanded for) when I dynod it.

An example of what I'm asking is, when my previous car was being tuned, we were having some heat soak issues and high IAT's so my car was not advancing the full amount of timing that was being commanded at WOT. My tuner told me what he was commanding and what was actually being advanced.[/QUOTE]

It is too difficult for us to provide 'advice' about something without knowing more specific information, you can give Bill in technical a call on 949 698 6187 and he is happy to chat to you again.

SonnyakaPig

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

Btw, yes if taken out of context my statement is an oversimplification. But, I was just saying that I respect what you say you guys do (i.e., not advance timing at WOT on 91 octane tunes for C63's).

SonnyakaPig

--

Powerchip

The image below shows one of the C63 timing maps, for competitive reasons I wont go into detail about which timing map it is , but it is one of MANY.

While Bill was putting the image together, he checked every 'large' timing map between the early cars and the late cars that were dyno tuned and tested at Marranos.

I can confirm with 100% certainty, that there are ZERO differences whatsoever in any of the main ignition maps between early and late C63's stock calibrations.

The image shows the ignition advance values in one of the maps, and the highlight shows what values MIGHT be accessed on a dyno dynamics load based dyno on a full throttle power run. The bytes accessed on a power run on an early model dynojet are likely to be different because of the way the load is applied.

This level of detail we have posted in relation to degrees of ignition is not normally shared with the public.

One of the reasons we have done it is to start to get consumers thinking.......

"Is the company I am talking to just a reseller of a file. Is it bought on ebay or from a 'european file service' for 100 euros from someone in the bedroom of a mid west tract home on a mobile phone dressed in his pajamas"

In Powerchip's case, we answer your call at our office, not on a cell phone.

We design the file 'in house' with permanent staff, and you can talk to the tech staff that actually change the maps. We are not a 'one man band', we actually create the intellectual property that we have licensed around the world for the last 19 years.

SonnyakaPig

Are those values at around 3750 rpms accurate? At that point in the rpms, is the car commanding up to 40 degrees of timing?

You would think that's where [in the powerband] the most timing would be commanded based on the way the car pulls (i.e., how it feels under acceleration).

Thanks for sharing.

Do the values in the outer left column on the top graph -- the one with the highlight -- represent the percentage of throttle blade opening?

Powerchip

"At that point in the rpms, is the car commanding up to 40 degrees of timing?"
The numbers in the table at those rpm have values of about 40 degrees, but that not to say that the table we have posted is what is commanded. That is too complex to explain as I have mentioned. That table is just one ignition map out of over ten relevant timing maps.

The information I have posted is 100% accurate, its just that its only 10% relevant

The left axis is load, not throttle opening. It's expressed as a percentage, ie 95.3 represents 'full load' or wide open throttle. Its very common to have load Vs. RPM based ignition and air fuel ratio tables.

I would love to post the air fuel tables, but the vast majority of our competitors do not know how to control air fuel ratios and they are important maps to change on a C63. I can confirm that Powerchip changes air fuel ratios on every 63 upgrade.

Powerchip

Competitors links with ignition advance maps

Here is a link to a chiptuner in socal that makes Porsche chips for old cars, all the cars listed are on control units that are simplistic in operation, ie a full throttle ignition map and a part throttle map

A change to a map will have a near direct response, if the timing is advanced by a degree, the car will basically 'just do it'

So it is possible to show and explain how timing curves work on early model ECU's, and our competitor has done a great job of explaining what is done

Maybe given his competitors too much information

http://www.911chips.com/ignition.htm

SonnyakaPig

Makes sense entirely.

Sonny@Marranos

Mike,


Thats just for the dyno operators reference & the owner,i had dynoed a S65 before the c63,being a 12 cylinder,i had inserted it in the info bar & forgot to change it when i dynoed the c63.Not alot of dyno operators fill in the data on the dyno sheets,i try to fill them in all the time as to when someone analyses the dyno sheet they can see the mods done to the vehicle.


regards sonny

ZephyrAMG

So conclusion? : Yes, MY2010 seems to put out a bit more power than MY2008. RIGHT?

ABALONE

Don't know what it's worth, but over here in Sweden/Europe the 2010 models with the Performance Package Plus comes with 487 HP from the factory